Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Jari Aalto]

Hubert Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 23 Nov 2006 22:40:01 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> 
> > My point. If there is explicit "Depends: bash", then someone can post
> > a patch to provide alternative solution to a person who may not know
> > alternative constructs (having learned only bashism).
> 
> Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to do here.  Can you
> please explain what dependencies have to do with wishlist bugreports?

"Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
bashism. He may offer a patch to convert those constructs to standard
sh-way-of-doing-things.

It's easier to eyeball packages that explicitly announce "bash".
Those could be  put to a stress test through:

/bin/dash
/bin/posh
...

If someone feels up to.

Jari


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Bug#400312: ITP: xmds -- eXtensible multi-dimensional Simulator

[Rafael Laboissiere]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Rafael Laboissiere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: xmds
  Version : 1.5-3
  Upstream Author : Paul Cochrane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Joseph Hope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Peter Drummond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.xmds.org/
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: C++, XML
  Description : eXtensible multi-dimensional Simulator

XMDS is a numerical simulation package that integrates equations, from
Ordinary Differential Equations (ODEs) up to stochastic Partial Differential
Equations (PDEs). You write them down in human readable form in an XML file,
and it goes away and writes and compiles a C++ program that integrates those
equations as fast as it can possibly be done in your architecture.

The discussion about packaging XMDS started from the upstream author's
request sent to the debian-science mailing list:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2006/11/msg00010.html

The Debian files for a preliminary, working package can be found in the SVN
repository of the pkg-scicomp prokject at Alioth:

http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-scicomp/xmds/trunk/debian/?rev=0&sc=0


-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-1-686
Locale: LANG=en_US, LC_CTYPE=en_US (charmap=ISO-8859-1)



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[David Weinehall]

On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:02:14AM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> Hubert Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On 23 Nov 2006 22:40:01 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > 
> > > My point. If there is explicit "Depends: bash", then someone can post
> > > a patch to provide alternative solution to a person who may not know
> > > alternative constructs (having learned only bashism).
> > 
> > Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to do here.  Can you
> > please explain what dependencies have to do with wishlist bugreports?
> 
> "Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
> usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
> bashism. He may offer a patch to convert those constructs to standard
> sh-way-of-doing-things.
> 
> It's easier to eyeball packages that explicitly announce "bash".
> Those could be  put to a stress test through:
> 
> /bin/dash
> /bin/posh
> ...
> 
> If someone feels up to.

I don't really see the point.  If the maintainer knows the package
contains bashisms, he might just as well fix them instead.


Regards: David
-- 
 /) David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> /) Rime on my window   (\
//  ~   //  Diamond-white roses of fire //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/   Beautiful hoar-frost   (/


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:51:37AM +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And this is only possible if scripts use
> 
> /bin/sh
> 
> The  /bin/sh could be any valid shell that provided the standard set
> of features. 
> 
> The installation system ("Essential") which sets /bin/sh to point to
> /bin/bash in this respect has been a bad choice because people are not
> aware of the bashinm they might be using as a result of it.

Maybe bash should restrict its features when called sh... like gzip
changes its features when called gunzip, etc.

Mike


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Thomas Bushnell]
> I'm interested in why we should care at all.  Perl is a far bigger space
> hog than bash.

Debian Edu had to switch /bin/sh from bash to dash to get shutdown to
umount /usr/ when we use libnss-ldap (bug #159771).  Bash loads user
information using nss when it starts, and thus loads the shared ldap
library from /usr/ on invocation.  This make it unusable in a system
with LDAP users.

Switching to dash as /bin/sh gave us a nice surprise with reduced
memory consumption and faster boots as well, but that was not the
reason why we switched.

Friendly,
-- 
Petter Reinholdtsen


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new hylafax in experimental

[Giuseppe Sacco]

Hi all,
a new hylafax version is going to be released in the next few weeks. I
have therefore uploaded a new version 4.3.1~rc3-1 to experimental, since
I don't want to mess with the current version in etch, 4.3.0-9.

Please test the new version, so that we may understand if 4.3.1 is ready
to be included in etch.

Thanks,
Giuseppe


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Bug#400319: ITP: tremulous-mappack -- Bricosoft's Official maps for Tremulous game

[Salokine]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Salokine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: tremulous-mappack
  Version : 0.1
  Upstream Author : Salokine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.bricosoft.com
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: GtkRadiant (1.5.0), Q3Map (1.0), Q3Map-ydnar (2.5.16)
  Description : Bricosoft's Official maps for Tremulous game

 All maps from Bricosoft for Tremulous game
 These maps are approved by the Bricosoft's Wiki, so you can contribute
 to add or remove any maps
 PS: Bricosoft includes some maps from tremulous.info

 List of Maps:
 * arkadia
 * atcszalpha-b2
 * gloom2beta2
 * meep_b2
 * minetest2
 * procyon-beta1
 * pulse-beta3-1.1.0
 * thermal-b2
 * uranium-alpha3
 * urban-p2
 * UTCSb2

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 4.0
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.16-2-k7-smp
Locale: LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=fr_FR.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)


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Re: Fwd: FC6 downloads and installs

[Adrian von Bidder]

On Saturday 25 November 2006 00:50, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 11:52:36PM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote:
> > I *guess* that Debian has a much higher percentage of downloads through
> > mirrors where we don't have the log files compared to FC, so this
> > obviously doesn't change that we won't be able to come even close to a
> > reasonable lower bound, though.
>
> I'd say that zero is a perfectly reasonable lower bound.  There is no
> way it can be lower than that.

It's a technically correct lower bound.

I probably should have used the word sensible instead of 
reasonable.  "Useful" comes to mind, too, but then we'd have to discuss 
what use that number is to us, which I'd rather skip (because I don't 
really think download numbers are very useful).  Perhaps "interesting" 
could be used - zero certainly is not an interesting lower bound.  

Pick your own.

  210 Moby Thesaurus words for "sensible":
 acknowledging, acquainted with, admissible, alive to, all there,
 all-knowing, apperceptive, appercipient, appreciable, appreciative,
 appreciative of, apprehending, apprehensible, apprehensive,
 apprised of, ascertainable, awake to, aware, aware of, balanced,
 behind the curtain, behind the scenes, beholden, bright, budget,
 cheap, clearheaded, clearminded, cogent, cognizable, cognizant,
 cognizant of, commonsense, compos mentis, comprehending,
 conceptive, conceptual, concrete, conscious, conscious of,
 considerable, cool, coolheaded, corporeal, credible, crediting,
 delicate, detectable, discernible, discreet, discursive,
 down-to-earth, earthy, easy, economic, economy, emotionable,
 evident, feeling, frugal, good, grateful, gross, hardheaded,
 healthy-minded, hep to, ideational, impressible, impressionable,
 impressive, in the know, in the secret, indebted to, inexpensive,
 informed of, insightful, intellectual, intelligent, judicious,
 just, justifiable, knowing, knowledgeable, legitimate, let into,
 levelheaded, live, logical, low, low-priced, lucid, manageable,
 manifest, material, matter-of-fact, mentally sound, mindful,
 mindful of, moderate, modest, much obliged, no stranger to, noetic,
 nominal, normal, not so dumb, noticeable, objective, obliged,
 observable, obvious, of sound mind, omniscient, on to, palpable,
 passible, patent, perceivable, perceptible, perceptive, percipient,
 perspicacious, phenomenal, philosophical, physical, plausible,
 ponderable, positivistic, practical, practical-minded, pragmatic,
 prehensile, privy to, prudent, rational, real, realist, realistic,
 reasonable, reasoned, receptive, recognizable, respectable,
 responsive, right, sagacious, sage, sane, sane-minded, scientific,
 scientistic, secular, seeable, seized of, sensational, sensible of,
 sensible to, sensile, sensitive, sensitive to, sentient, shabby,
 shoddy, shrewd, significant, sober, sober-minded, soft,
 softhearted, solid, sophic, sound, sound-minded, sound-thinking,
 straight-thinking, streetwise, strong-minded, substantial,
 substantive, susceptible, susceptive, sympathetic, tangible,
 tender, tenderhearted, thankful, together, token, undeceived,
 under obligation, understanding, unexpensive, unideal,
 unidealistic, unromantic, unsentimental, visible, warmhearted,
 weighable, well-argued, well-balanced, well-founded, well-grounded,
 well-thought-out, wholesome, wise, wise to, within means, worldly,
 worth the money

cheers
-- vbi

-- 
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it.


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distributorship in morocco

[bananemoha]

DEAR SIR,

Cobifac Fashion is a group of several points of sale and distributorship in 
Morocco.
The company work also in beauty and health care products and ladies accessories.
Our company have several store, each store present a range of Products.
We search manufacturer to present their items and make place in our country

PLEASE SEND US YOUR CATALOG OR YOUR WEB SITE

THANKS

COBIFAC FASHION :
141 BOULEVARD DE LA RESISTANCE CASABLANCA 2
MOROCCO
EMAIL : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TEL / 00 212 22 45 14 96 / 00 212 22 54 37 86
FAX / 00 212 44 07 61 / 00 212 22 54 37 87


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> "Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
> usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
> bashism. He may offer a patch to convert those constructs to standard
> sh-way-of-doing-things.
> 
> It's easier to eyeball packages that explicitly announce "bash".
> Those could be  put to a stress test through:

It's also relatively trivial to just run through the archive, looking
for shell scripts and at least sh -n them from various shells of your
choice.
-- 
 -
|   ,''`.Stephen Gran |
|  : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
|  `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer |
|`- http://www.debian.org |
 -


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Jari Aalto]

Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:51:37AM +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > And this is only possible if scripts use
> > 
> > /bin/sh
> > 
> > The  /bin/sh could be any valid shell that provided the standard set
> > of features. 
> > 
> > The installation system ("Essential") which sets /bin/sh to point to
> > /bin/bash in this respect has been a bad choice because people are not
> > aware of the bashinm they might be using as a result of it.
> 
> Maybe bash should restrict its features when called sh... like gzip
> changes its features when called gunzip, etc.

I think this would complicate the bash's C-code base unnecessarily.
The problem is not in the bash, but in the symlink. The proper way
would be to ship in etch+1

/bin/sh -> /bin/dash

And leave bash as it is now (in essential and for interactive use; as
a default shell). Breaking the symlink to bash of course would need
decision from the board that is resposible for such a change.

In practise the change will not be that big at all, because as
demonstrated, the Debian works fine and with no breakage if the
symlink points to dash[1]. It's good to know that developers pay
attention to lintian bashism warnings and the maintainer scripts are
in fact mostly "bash free".


Jari

[1] I can of course speak from perspective other than "testing" brach
where I have been running such systems for 1-2 years. The selected
packages however do not represent the whole set of packages, so there
is no doubt still bashim somewhere. But on the whole, all seem to work
nicely and I wouldn't expecte the transition to move to dash have big
impact.



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Jari Aalto]

Stephen Gran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> > "Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
> > usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
> > bashism. He may offer a patch to convert those constructs to standard
> > sh-way-of-doing-things.
> > 
> > It's easier to eyeball packages that explicitly announce "bash".
> > Those could be  put to a stress test through:
> 
> It's also relatively trivial to just run through the archive, looking
> for shell scripts and at least sh -n them from various shells of your
> choice.

Sure, but it's more time consuming that using the 'Depends: '

Jari


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HELLO

[Robert Page]

Greetings, 
 
I am Barr. Robert C. Page. I am reaching you to handle an investment 
portfolio. 
 
I am reaching you to assist in repatriating the funds and property left 
behind by my late client before it will be confiscated by government 
and declared unserviceable by the bank where the huge deposits were 
lodged. 
He died intestate and every attempt to trace any member of his family 
has proved abortive and unsuccessful. 
 
Do note that who you are does not matter and you will be better 
informed when I hear from you. 
 
I want you to respond by sending: 
 
1. Your full names 
2. Tel & fax numbers 
3. Complete Address 
 
Send the above information and I will furnish you with more information 
about the estate and process of transfer to you. 
 
Yours Faithfully, 
 
Barrister Robert C. Page esq. 
London, U.K. 
 
 
N.B: 
Please respond with your full names, address, phone and fax numbers for 
the immediate start up of this transaction. Do note that who you are 
does not matter and you will be better informed when I hear from you. 

Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> Stephen Gran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> > > "Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
> > > usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
> > > bashism. He may offer a patch to convert those constructs to standard
> > > sh-way-of-doing-things.
> > > 
> > > It's easier to eyeball packages that explicitly announce "bash".
> > > Those could be  put to a stress test through:
> > 
> > It's also relatively trivial to just run through the archive, looking
> > for shell scripts and at least sh -n them from various shells of your
> > choice.
> 
> Sure, but it's more time consuming that using the 'Depends: '

But surely less time consuming than the week long thread we've gotten
out of this?
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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-11-22 20:52:07, schrieb Oleg Verych:
> On 2006-11-22, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> >   ${parameter:offset}
> >   ${parameter:offset:length}
> 
> Here you know what and where parameter has. Is it better to split it?

echo "${parameter}" |cut -c N-
and
echo "${parameter}" |cut -c Nx-Ny
\   /
The length is the difference

I see this as crap

> >   disown
> 
> This one not needed, unless you are in x-terminal, AFAIK.

Why x-terminal?  -  I am using it in scripts
with a "dumb" terminal from "cron" or "init"

> Yes... Kind of web-programming...

:-)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-11-25 00:02:34, schrieb Jari Aalto:
> PII with 62-128M, fairly common.

ACK

> > For example my IBM TP570 (PII/366MHz/192MB)
> > is happy with /bin/bash and fast enough.
> 
> "fast enought" is in the eye of a beholder. Try with PII/64M with
> X deskop with 20 sessions of bash open. And opening firefox and xchat.

I do not know a singel person which open 20 xterms with bash at the
same time.  On my IBM i have normaly 4-6 XTerms open, mozilla and gaim.


Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Bug in Perl man page (was Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp)

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/25/06 00:46, Greg Folkert wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 13:12 -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>> On 11/24/06 11:54, Jon Dowland wrote:
>>> On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 08:25:27AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 11/24/06 06:06, Jon Dowland wrote:
[snip]
> Ron, please stop that urban legend. Perl is Perl not P.E.R.L as you say.
> 
> I have been corrected for saying that, by more than one Perl Monk, also
> by Mr. Wall.
> 
> Perl is Perl. It has no meaning other than Perl.

I guess I'd better file a bug against the perl package then.

PERL(1) Perl Programmers Reference Guide PERL(1)

NAME
   perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language

SYNOPSIS
   perl [ -sTtuUWX ]  [ -hv ] [ -V[:configvar] ]
[snip]
perl v5.8.82006-08-06PERL(1)
 Manual page perl(1) line 377/430 (END)

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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6hF156yUXhsiSBMha1VEVZk=
=3gG9
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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Jim Crilly]

On 11/25/06 06:06:09PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Am 2006-11-25 00:02:34, schrieb Jari Aalto:
> > PII with 62-128M, fairly common.
> 
> ACK
> 
> > > For example my IBM TP570 (PII/366MHz/192MB)
> > > is happy with /bin/bash and fast enough.
> > 
> > "fast enought" is in the eye of a beholder. Try with PII/64M with
> > X deskop with 20 sessions of bash open. And opening firefox and xchat.
> 
> I do not know a singel person which open 20 xterms with bash at the
> same time.  On my IBM i have normaly 4-6 XTerms open, mozilla and gaim.
> 
> 

You don't need 1 xterm per shell, using screen I usually have anywhere
between 10 and 20 shells going at once.

Jim.


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 09:51 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > > > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> > > 
> > > Because the correct is #!/bin/sh and not to be tied on particular shell.
> > 
> > I can't tell what you mean.  There is nothing wrong with using
> > #!/bin/dash if that's what the maintainer wants to specify.
> 
> And if the system does not have dash installed? And if the scrpts work
> fine with the /bin/sh of his choice?

Obviously if you #!/bin/dash you must add a dependency, because dash is
not an Essential package.

As I said, it is perfectly possible for a maintainer to write a script
which works on any shell and allows the user to pick at installation
time (heck, or even per-user!) which shell to use.

Thomas



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 11:31 +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> [Thomas Bushnell]
> > I'm interested in why we should care at all.  Perl is a far bigger space
> > hog than bash.
> 
> Debian Edu had to switch /bin/sh from bash to dash to get shutdown to
> umount /usr/ when we use libnss-ldap (bug #159771).  Bash loads user
> information using nss when it starts, and thus loads the shared ldap
> library from /usr/ on invocation.  This make it unusable in a system
> with LDAP users.

This is an excellent example of doing the wrong thing, in my opinion.

Why not fix the bash bug instead??

Thomas



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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Russ Allbery]

Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I do not know a singel person which open 20 xterms with bash at the same
> time.  On my IBM i have normaly 4-6 XTerms open, mozilla and gaim.

I have a minimum of 18 xterms open at any given time, plus an additional
four shells running under screen, in just my standard desktop
configuration which I've been using for many years.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Bug in Perl man page

[Russ Allbery]

Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On 11/25/06 00:46, Greg Folkert wrote:

>> Ron, please stop that urban legend. Perl is Perl not P.E.R.L as you
>> say.

>> I have been corrected for saying that, by more than one Perl Monk, also
>> by Mr. Wall.

>> Perl is Perl. It has no meaning other than Perl.

> I guess I'd better file a bug against the perl package then.

> PERL(1) Perl Programmers Reference Guide PERL(1)

> NAME
>perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language

It's a back-formation, as is "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
(later in the man page).  The language is actually named after "Pearl" but
since there was already a language named that, Larry Wall dropped the "a".
Since then, a few acronyms were made up to fit the letters.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:20:07AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 09:51 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > > > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > > > > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> > > > 
> > > > Because the correct is #!/bin/sh and not to be tied on particular shell.
> > > 
> > > I can't tell what you mean.  There is nothing wrong with using
> > > #!/bin/dash if that's what the maintainer wants to specify.
> > 
> > And if the system does not have dash installed? And if the scrpts work
> > fine with the /bin/sh of his choice?
> 
> Obviously if you #!/bin/dash you must add a dependency, because dash is
> not an Essential package.
> 
> As I said, it is perfectly possible for a maintainer to write a script
> which works on any shell and allows the user to pick at installation
> time (heck, or even per-user!) which shell to use.

How cool that would be to be asked 1 times at installation time
which shell should be used for ${SCRIPT}.

Mike


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Thomas Bushnell]
> Why not fix the bash bug instead??

Yes, I ask myself the same question.  This bug was submitted as a bash
bug, and then passed on to the ldap library package by the bash
maintainer, and then passed back to bash and forwarded to upstream,
which never addressed it.  No idea why the bash maintainer tried to
reassign it instead of trying to fix it.

Personally, I had other higher priority issues to work on for Debian
Edu, and decided to pick the fast and small option dash instead of
spending time on discussing the issue with the bash maintainer and
upstream.  It would be nice if bash didn't use nss functions when it
starts, and instead waited until one of the variables containing user
information was requested, so you could try to submit such patch to
upstream and see if they accept it.

Friendly,
-- 
Petter Reinholdtsen


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Jari Aalto]

Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Am 2006-11-25 00:02:34, schrieb Jari Aalto:
> > PII with 62-128M, fairly common.
> 
> ACK
> 
> > > For example my IBM TP570 (PII/366MHz/192MB)
> > > is happy with /bin/bash and fast enough.
> > 
> > "fast enought" is in the eye of a beholder. Try with PII/64M with
> > X deskop with 20 sessions of bash open. And opening firefox and xchat.
> 
> I do not know a singel person which open 20 xterms with bash at the
> same time.  On my IBM i have normaly 4-6 XTerms open, mozilla and gaim.

Try developing 10 software packages simultaneously (you leave the
session open and come back next day) possibly in different sites
(compiling ,aking manual, html pages, writng docs). Include piece of
version control tools and editors and you find you need *lots* of
rooms to play in.

And that is only a start.

Jari


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 21:33 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > As I said, it is perfectly possible for a maintainer to write a script
> > which works on any shell and allows the user to pick at installation
> > time (heck, or even per-user!) which shell to use.
> 
> How cool that would be to be asked 1 times at installation time
> which shell should be used for ${SCRIPT}.

How about once?  I think that perhaps there is some non-thinking going
on here, as if one must do everything in the stupidest possible way.

Thomas



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Re: Bug in Perl man page

[Ron Johnson]

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On 11/25/06 13:54, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On 11/25/06 00:46, Greg Folkert wrote:
> 
>>> Ron, please stop that urban legend. Perl is Perl not P.E.R.L as you
>>> say.
> 
>>> I have been corrected for saying that, by more than one Perl Monk, also
>>> by Mr. Wall.
> 
>>> Perl is Perl. It has no meaning other than Perl.
> 
>> I guess I'd better file a bug against the perl package then.
> 
>> PERL(1) Perl Programmers Reference Guide PERL(1)
> 
>> NAME
>>perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
> 
> It's a back-formation, as is "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
> (later in the man page).  The language is actually named after "Pearl" but
> since there was already a language named that, Larry Wall dropped the "a".
> Since then, a few acronyms were made up to fit the letters.

Does an official-looking top-of-the-man-page backronym that does not
indicate that it is a backronym *become* canonical, simply by reason
that it's at the top of the official man page?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: Bug in Perl man page

[Russ Allbery]

Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On 11/25/06 13:54, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> It's a back-formation, as is "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
>> (later in the man page).  The language is actually named after "Pearl"
>> but since there was already a language named that, Larry Wall dropped
>> the "a".  Since then, a few acronyms were made up to fit the letters.

> Does an official-looking top-of-the-man-page backronym that does not
> indicate that it is a backronym *become* canonical, simply by reason
> that it's at the top of the official man page?

Well, the Perl developers don't seem to think so given the arguments on
the Perl mailing lists we've had as much as some of the pointless
arguments we have in Debian, but it doesn't really *matter*.  :)

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Bug#400070: RFP: gaia -- Google Earth client

[Bill Allombert]

On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 01:20:41AM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> El jue, 23-11-2006 a las 18:50 +0100, Axel Beckert escribi??:
> > Package: wnpp
> > Severity: wishlist
> > 
> > * Package name: gaia
> >   Version : 0.1.0
> >   Upstream Author : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > * URL or Web page : http://gaia.serezhkin.com/
> > * License : GPLv2
> >   Description : Google Earth client
> > 
> > Gaia is both a free library and free client to Google Earth for Linux,
> > *BSD, MacOS X and in future also Windows.
> 
>   Sorry, but it seems that Google send a cease&desist letter to gaia
> developers, as you can see in their webpage (URL above):

Someone should grab gaia-0.1.0.tar.bz2 from Google cache and then
claim that Google distributed the software under the GNU GPL.

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Imagine a large red swirl here.


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Re: Bug in Perl man page

[Ron Johnson]

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On 11/25/06 17:07, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On 11/25/06 13:54, Russ Allbery wrote:
> 
>>> It's a back-formation, as is "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
>>> (later in the man page).  The language is actually named after "Pearl"
>>> but since there was already a language named that, Larry Wall dropped
>>> the "a".  Since then, a few acronyms were made up to fit the letters.
> 
>> Does an official-looking top-of-the-man-page backronym that does not
>> indicate that it is a backronym *become* canonical, simply by reason
>> that it's at the top of the official man page?
> 
> Well, the Perl developers don't seem to think so given the arguments on
> the Perl mailing lists we've had as much as some of the pointless

That's really interesting/confusing.

According to http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html the v1.000
man page also gives the acronym
NAME
perl | Practical Extraction and Report Language

So, anyone who does The Right Thing and goes to Canon can only
presume that this is what perl means.

> arguments we have in Debian, but it doesn't really *matter*.  :)
> 


- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Back to the original topic (was Re: Bug in Perl man page)

[Ron Johnson]

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On 11/25/06 17:07, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On 11/25/06 13:54, Russ Allbery wrote:
> 
>>> It's a back-formation, as is "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
>>> (later in the man page).  The language is actually named after "Pearl"
>>> but since there was already a language named that, Larry Wall dropped
>>> the "a".  Since then, a few acronyms were made up to fit the letters.
> 
>> Does an official-looking top-of-the-man-page backronym that does not
>> indicate that it is a backronym *become* canonical, simply by reason
>> that it's at the top of the official man page?
> 
> Well, the Perl developers don't seem to think so given the arguments on
> the Perl mailing lists we've had as much as some of the pointless
> arguments we have in Debian, but it doesn't really *matter*.  :)

True.

What matters is that Perl started out as
 Perl is a interpreted language optimized for scanning  arbi-
 trary  text  files,  extracting  information from those text
 files, and printing reports based on that information.  It's
 also  a good language for many system management tasks.  The

And has wound up being everything for everybody (who likes to swear
at the computer[*]).  Definitely *not* The Unix Way.

* I'm reminded of the day my daughter came in, looked over my
shoulder at some Perl 4 code, and said, "What is that, swearing?" --
Larry Wall in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: Bug#400070: RFP: gaia -- Google Earth client

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Bill Allombert]
> Someone should grab gaia-0.1.0.tar.bz2 from Google cache and then
> claim that Google distributed the software under the GNU GPL.

Hehe.  Doubt that will have any effect, though. :)

It will not address the problem for the most interesting material,
though, as the google map data isn't GPL, and can not be claimed to be
GPL.  And a google earth clone is rather useless without permission to
fetch data from google.

I recommend earth3d and the NASA worldwind spinoffs if you want free
map data. :)

Friendly,
-- 
Petter Reinholdtsen


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Re: Back to the original topic

[Russ Allbery]

Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> What matters is that Perl started out as

>  Perl is a interpreted language optimized for scanning  arbi-
>  trary  text  files,  extracting  information from those text
>  files, and printing reports based on that information.  It's
>  also  a good language for many system management tasks.  The

> And has wound up being everything for everybody (who likes to swear
> at the computer[*]).  Definitely *not* The Unix Way.

I must admit I have a knee-jerk dislike of the phrase "the Unix Way,"
probably because I've seen it come up far too much in discussions of this
sort and almost always with the apparent meaning "I don't like the tools
that you use but don't have specific reasons that I think you'll find
persuasive, so instead will just say that they're not the Unix Way."

(And personally, I program in C, shell, Perl, Python, and Lisp depending
on the situation, will probably end up learning Ruby.)

I like what I can do with a current Debian system a lot more than what I
could do with a pure Unix system from the mid-1980s.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Back to the original topic

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 11/25/06 18:24, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> What matters is that Perl started out as
> 
>>  Perl is a interpreted language optimized for scanning  arbi-
>>  trary  text  files,  extracting  information from those text
>>  files, and printing reports based on that information.  It's
>>  also  a good language for many system management tasks.  The
> 
>> And has wound up being everything for everybody (who likes to swear
>> at the computer[*]).  Definitely *not* The Unix Way.
> 
> I must admit I have a knee-jerk dislike of the phrase "the Unix Way,"
> probably because I've seen it come up far too much in discussions of this
> sort and almost always with the apparent meaning "I don't like the tools
> that you use but don't have specific reasons that I think you'll find
> persuasive, so instead will just say that they're not the Unix Way."

And because "One Task, One Tool" went the way of the carrier pigeon
years ago.

> (And personally, I program in C, shell, Perl, Python, and Lisp depending
> on the situation, will probably end up learning Ruby.)
> 
> I like what I can do with a current Debian system a lot more than what I
> could do with a pure Unix system from the mid-1980s.

Hell yes!  Before Linux, my Unix experience was with early 1990s AIX
and a c. 1990  ATT 3b2.  *Very* painful compared to my then-beloved
VAX/VMS and now-beloved OpenVMS.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, Michelle Konzack said:
> Am 2006-11-25 00:02:34, schrieb Jari Aalto:
> > PII with 62-128M, fairly common.
> 
> ACK
> 
> > > For example my IBM TP570 (PII/366MHz/192MB)
> > > is happy with /bin/bash and fast enough.
> > 
> > "fast enought" is in the eye of a beholder. Try with PII/64M with
> > X deskop with 20 sessions of bash open. And opening firefox and xchat.
> 
> I do not know a singel person which open 20 xterms with bash at the
> same time.  On my IBM i have normaly 4-6 XTerms open, mozilla and gaim.

My normal work day involves between 50 and 60 xterms, and another dozen
or two konsole sessions, spread across 16 virtual desktops.
-- 
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|  : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
|  `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer |
|`- http://www.debian.org |
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Re: Bug in Perl man page

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, Ron Johnson said:
> Does an official-looking top-of-the-man-page backronym that does not
> indicate that it is a backronym *become* canonical, simply by reason
> that it's at the top of the official man page?

Does a joke become truth just because people don't know it's a joke?
-- 
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|  : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
|  `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer |
|`- http://www.debian.org |
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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Dwayne C. Litzenberger]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 07:42:14PM +, Oleg Verych wrote:

Guys. Once more. Spaces is your problem, not my.


In Unix, every byte except NUL and / (including CR, LF, quotes, and UTF-8 
characters) can be used in a filename, and every string of those bytes 
except "." and ".." is a perfectly valid, legal filename.


Treating some legal filenames differently than others is a bug.  Period.

--
Dwayne C. Litzenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp

[Dwayne C. Litzenberger]

On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 05:03:13PM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote:

# ls /dev/udp /dev/tcp
ls: /dev/udp: No such file or directory
ls: /dev/tcp: No such file or directory

The chosen method of integration is practical non-sense.
What happens if /dev/tcp is present and a character device?


That's more likely than it might sound.  A proper way to implement the 
/dev/tcp/ feature (if you're going to implement it at all) would be to use 
FUSE, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone did that within the next 5 
years.


--
Dwayne C. Litzenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Bug in Perl man page

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 11/25/06 23:02, Stephen Gran wrote:
> This one time, at band camp, Ron Johnson said:
>> Does an official-looking top-of-the-man-page backronym that does not
>> indicate that it is a backronym *become* canonical, simply by reason
>> that it's at the top of the official man page?
> 
> Does a joke become truth just because people don't know it's a joke?

If you don't want perception to become accepted truth, don't make
your jokes look so real.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Dwayne C. Litzenberger]

On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 04:04:39PM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:

> It's easier to eyeball packages that explicitly announce "bash".
> Those could be  put to a stress test through:

It's also relatively trivial to just run through the archive, looking
for shell scripts and at least sh -n them from various shells of your
choice.


Sure, but it's more time consuming that using the 'Depends: '


Until Debian ships with /bin/sh pointing to dash or posh by default, a 
"Depends: bash" line isn't going to be reliable anyway, because a lot of 
maintainers won't notice that their package depends on bash, and the ones 
that do should probably just remove the bashisms.


--
Dwayne C. Litzenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Samstag 25 November 2006 22:57 schrieb Jari Aalto:
> > I do not know a singel person which open 20 xterms with bash at the
> > same time.  On my IBM i have normaly 4-6 XTerms open, mozilla and gaim.
>
> Try developing 10 software packages simultaneously (you leave the
> session open and come back next day) possibly in different sites
> (compiling ,aking manual, html pages, writng docs). Include piece of
> version control tools and editors and you find you need *lots* of
> rooms to play in.
>
> And that is only a start.

That what IDEs are for. Or try emacs ;)
And if you develop that much, I really hope for you that you have a bit more 
computing power and RAM than the low profile. With today prices on hardware, 
everything else is pretty inefficient.

HS


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