Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Giuseppe Sacco]

Il giorno gio, 13/04/2006 alle 11.46 +0200, Eduard Bloch ha scritto:
[...]
> > - evince
> 
> As other pointed out, does basically the same job as xpdf but pulls half
> of the Gnome.

If you just want to display PDF files then probably xpdf is a better
option, but Evince has a really nice feature: it show TIFF multipage.
This is the *only* free software program I am aware of, that can show
multipage tiff file.

Bye,
Giuseppe


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 09:40 +0200, Giuseppe Sacco wrote:
> Il giorno gio, 13/04/2006 alle 11.46 +0200, Eduard Bloch ha scritto:
> [...]
> > > - evince
> > 
> > As other pointed out, does basically the same job as xpdf but pulls half
> > of the Gnome.
> 
> If you just want to display PDF files then probably xpdf is a better
> option, but Evince has a really nice feature: it show TIFF multipage.
> This is the *only* free software program I am aware of, that can show
> multipage tiff file.

Something that pulls in half of GNOME should not be part of a
"light desktop" meta-package.  Let the user pull it in later if
desired.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA

"There is no shadow of protection to be had by sheltering behind
the slender stockades of visionary speculation, or by hiding
behind the wagon-wheels of pacific theories."
Madame Chiang Kai-Shek


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Kevin Mark]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 03:00:44AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 09:40 +0200, Giuseppe Sacco wrote:
> > Il giorno gio, 13/04/2006 alle 11.46 +0200, Eduard Bloch ha scritto:
> > [...]
> > > > - evince
> > > 
> > > As other pointed out, does basically the same job as xpdf but pulls half
> > > of the Gnome.
> > 
> > If you just want to display PDF files then probably xpdf is a better
> > option, but Evince has a really nice feature: it show TIFF multipage.
> > This is the *only* free software program I am aware of, that can show
> > multipage tiff file.
> 
> Something that pulls in half of GNOME should not be part of a
> "light desktop" meta-package.  Let the user pull it in later if
> desired.
> 
Hi Ron,
I'd probabbly just use pdftotext on such a system.
cheers,
Kev


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Peter Samuelson]

[Kevin Mark]
> What about: '100-300MHZ system desktop(XFCE)'
> 
> Also, based upon the cpu/mem info, display:
> you machine has a 766MHZ processor with 128MB memory.
> [x]KDE desktop environment[500mhz or greater]
> [ ]GNOME desktop evirnoenne[500mhz or greater]
> [ ]XFCE desktop enviorneme[300mhz or greater]
> [ ]TWM desktop enviroemnet[100mhz or greater]

Your implication that some absolute number of MHz means much about
system performance is very i386-centric.  May as well go back to using
the bogomips value, at least the bogo- prefix is honest.

(Now, amount of RAM is at least _somewhat_ comparable as a metric for
what combination of apps will thrash the system and what might not.
For a single-user, single-login machine.  Doesn't particularly apply
to, say, a terminal server.)


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Christian Perrier]

> I am sure this has been discussed many times, but one thing i would
> really like to see in tasksel is:


Many many times, yes..:-)

Joey often raised an argument about novice users likely to be confused
by a KDE/Gnome choice, not knowing the difference between both.

Your suggestion adds an interesting possibility in that matter with
the "I don't know" choice. Seems worth discussing it, imho.

I would vote against too much choices if we go this way,
though. Probably if the multiple desktop environments suggestion is
implemented, it should be restricted to four choices:

-"I dont know"
-KDE
-Gnome
-Light desktop

Offering too many choices would add much confusion and we have to
remember that tasks are mostly targeted at novice users




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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Daniel Schepler]

Le Vendredi 14 Avril 2006 08:28, Kevin Mark a écrit :
> Hi Linas,
> what about /proc/cpuinfo to determine MHZ and /proc/meminfo to find MB.
> does this provide some way to get this info accross all (or most) of the
> archs/subarch?
> And how about using /proc/* to guess what kind of storage is avalable to
> determine which install will likely fill the HD?

On laptops running powersaved, /proc/cpuinfo will show the current CPU speed 
instead of the maximum possible.  So you need to be careful about depending 
on /proc/cpuinfo.
-- 
Daniel Schepler

Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Ognyan Kulev]

Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> "HAM" is not an acronym, so "Ham Radio" would be more appropriate.
> 
> Even better (IMHO) is the full term "Amateur Radio", but some may
> disagree. I've CC'd debian-hams for their input also.

Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?

Regards,
ogi


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 11:46 +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
> > - file-roller
> 
> Is there really no other choice without GNOME dependencies? 

there is xarchiver, entered recently in unstable
-- 
Yves-Alexis Perez


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Keegan Quinn]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 10:19:20AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote:
> I would vote against too much choices if we go this way,
> though. Probably if the multiple desktop environments suggestion is
> implemented, it should be restricted to four choices:
> 
> -"I dont know"
> -KDE
> -Gnome
> -Light desktop
> 
> Offering too many choices would add much confusion and we have to
> remember that tasks are mostly targeted at novice users

I agree with your concepts here, but I have an idea.  Perhaps
something like this could be offered:

 * Full desktop   (or "Heavy" maybe?)
   * KDE
   * GNOME
  * Light desktop   (or "Advanced" maybe?)
* openbox
* fluxbox
* etc.

I don't know if this would be practical but I think it could be
useful.

HTH,

-- 
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Bug#362454: ITP: kredentials -- KDE systray applet for managing AFS and Kerberos credentials

[Noah Meyerhans]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Noah Meyerhans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: kredentials
  Version : 0.7.1
  Upstream Author : Noah Meyerhans (yes, that's me)
* URL : http://people.csail.mit.edu/noahm/kredentials
* License : MIT
  Description : KDE systray applet for managing AFS and Kerberos credentials

Kredentials is a KDE systray applet for keeping Kerberos and AFS
authentication tokens current. Each hour it renews Kerberos tickets and
(optionally) obtains new AFS tokens, and it notifies the user upon final
ticket expiration.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 3.1
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)
Kernel: Linux 2.6.15.4-csail
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C (charmap=ANSI_X3.4-1968)


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What on earth?

[Adam C Powell IV]

Greetings,

Please tell me if I have this right:
  * You don't like .la files
  * So you're unilaterally removing them from a core package
(libxcursor) with dozens of reverse-depends, breaking all of
them
  * Even though they're a years-old and very well established
technology
  * Which upstream libtool has not yet decided to eliminate ("It's
already under discussion")
  * And which has not been discussed on debian-devel or any other
Debian list as far as I can tell (Google search).

Can you really be serious?

For example, if the maintainer of GLib decides (s)he doesn't like the
way it handles modules, and upstream *might* at some point change the
behavior, is that alone enough justification to change it and break all
of its dozens of reverse-depending packages?

-Adam
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Re: What on earth?

[Adam C Powell IV]

On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 11:12 -0400, Adam C Powell IV wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Please tell me if I have this right:
>   * You don't like .la files
>   * So you're unilaterally removing them from a core package
> (libxcursor) with dozens of reverse-depends, breaking all of
> them
>   * Even though they're a years-old and very well established
> technology
>   * Which upstream libtool has not yet decided to eliminate ("It's
> already under discussion")
>   * And which has not been discussed on debian-devel or any other
> Debian list as far as I can tell (Google search).

Okay, my mistake, the removal of .la files throughout X packages
indicates that this was an X-wide decision, not an isolated developer.
But I still don't see any discussion on Debian lists outside of this one
bug.

"I guess that's why they call it unstable..."

Cheers,
-Adam
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Bug#362584: ITP: xindy -- a flexible indexing system

[Jörg Sommer]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: "Jörg Sommer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: xindy
  Version : 2.2-beta2-1
  Upstream Author : Joachim Schrod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://xindy.sourceforge.net/
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: C, LISP
  Description : a flexible indexing system

 xindy is an index processor that can be used to generate book-like
 indexes for arbitrary document-preparation systems. This includes
 systems such as TeX and LaTeX, the roff-family, SGML/XML-based systems
 (e.g. HTML) that process some kind of text and generate indexing
 information. The kernel system is not fixed to any specific system, but
 can be configured to work together with such systems.
 .
 In comparison to other index processors xindy has several powerful
 features that make it an ideal framework for describing and generating
 complex indices, addressing especially international indexing. Have a
 look at xindy's Overview that describes its most important features!

* Debian package : http://www.minet.uni-jena.de/~joergs/debian/

-- System Information:
Debian Release: unstable/experimental
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (990, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: powerpc (ppc)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.15.4
Locale: LANG=de_DE, LC_CTYPE=de_DE (charmap=ISO-8859-1)


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Re: Upload getting lost

[Bernhard R. Link]

* Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060413 06:05]:
> >> A colon is explicitly allowed if the version contains an epoch.  In
> >> this case, the build generate file names which contain a colon,
> >> too, and I'd expect them to be rejected in the same manner (they
> >> look essentially the same because the epoch is dropped).
> >
> > Sounds like Policy needs an update to me if we're not going to
> > accept version numbers that contain a colon (other than the epoch
> > colon).  I'd be happy to second such a proposal.
> 
> Why not fix the bug instead?

Policy has (besides other things) the job of documentating current
practice. This discrepancy is there for a long time. It is even known
for a long time.
(compare e.g.  http://lists.debian.org/debian-policy/2003/10/msg00110.html)

No one uses colons in the upstream version, as it is not possible for
a long time. So we can either adapt the policy to the rules
actually in action, or the fix the rules in action.
As noone needed it enough that it was fixed for years, and always
disallowing colons makes the whole rule easier and brings us in a bug
free state directly (some tools would not reject a explicitly invalid
version then, but we know all programs work with valid versions and no
other programs might cause problems when first hit by them) my
suggestion is to adapt policy to practice.

Hochachtungsvoll,
  Bernhard R. Link

-- 
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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Thiemo Seufer]

Ognyan Kulev wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > "HAM" is not an acronym, so "Ham Radio" would be more appropriate.
> > 
> > Even better (IMHO) is the full term "Amateur Radio", but some may
> > disagree. I've CC'd debian-hams for their input also.
> 
> Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?

It is unnecessarily complicated.


Thiemo


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Linas Žvirblis]

Christian Perrier wrote:

> Joey often raised an argument about novice users likely to be confused
> by a KDE/Gnome choice, not knowing the difference between both.

That is undoubtedly true for novice (as in "first time") users, but we
should realize that there is a large group of users that are experienced
enough to know what they want, but are not yet capable of doing manual
install with aptitude.

A good example of this is existence of (k)ubuntu. People like choice.

> I would vote against too much choices if we go this way,
> though. Probably if the multiple desktop environments suggestion is
> implemented, it should be restricted to four choices:
> 
> -"I dont know"
> -KDE
> -Gnome
> -Light desktop

That could be a certain compromise, but I strongly suggest not naming it
"Light desktop". It simply is too general. Let us pretend we have not
seen the list of packages posted by André Luiz Rodrigues Ferreira. Now,
does any of them suddenly become cryptic?

Both Gnome and KDE are highly sophisticated desktop environments and are
both recognizable by name. You know what to expect from them. You know
both are heavy. But why should one particular selection of packages
become THE light desktop?

A custom selection of packages based on someones opinion is not a
desktop environment. It is a CDD.

> Offering too many choices would add much confusion and we have to
> remember that tasks are mostly targeted at novice users

Therefore I suggest doing this...

 - I don't know (both of them)
 - KDE desktop environment
 - Gnome desktop environment

...and leaving the specialized tasks for CDDs, because that is what they
are for, right?


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Re: Upload getting lost

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 14 Apr 2006, Bernhard R. Link stated:

> * Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060413 06:05]:
 A colon is explicitly allowed if the version contains an epoch.
 In this case, the build generate file names which contain a
 colon, too, and I'd expect them to be rejected in the same manner
 (they look essentially the same because the epoch is dropped).
>>>
>>> Sounds like Policy needs an update to me if we're not going to
>>> accept version numbers that contain a colon (other than the epoch
>>> colon).  I'd be happy to second such a proposal.
>>
>> Why not fix the bug instead?
>
> Policy has (besides other things) the job of documentating current
> practice.

Not quite correct.  Policy has the job of docmenting what is
 technically correct, and selecting one of a number of equally viable
 technical options where numerous possibilities exist.  The primary
 purpose of policy is to ensure that diverse packages under different
 maintainers can be seamlessly integrated.

Blindly ratifying incorrect common practices is not something
 policy should ever do -- so by itself, this line of argument is not
 convincing.

> This discrepancy is there for a long time. It is even
> known for a long time.  (compare e.g.
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-policy/2003/10/msg00110.html)
>
> No one uses colons in the upstream version, as it is not possible
> for a long time. So we can either adapt the policy to the rules
> actually in action, or the fix the rules in action.  As noone needed
> it enough that it was fixed for years, and always disallowing colons
> makes the whole rule easier and brings us in a bug free state
> directly (some tools would not reject a explicitly invalid version
> then, but we know all programs work with valid versions and no other
> programs might cause problems when first hit by them) my suggestion
> is to adapt policy to practice.

Actually, a number of programs that check for version validity
 would need to be changed, or no longer be considered authoritative,
 so we have some code fixing to do in any case.

What is the scope of the bug fixing required to bring the
 programs in line with long established policy?

manoj
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Re: Bug#362040: ITP: rt2x00 -- RT2400/2500/2570 wireless network drivers

[Adrian von Bidder]

On Wednesday 12 April 2006 00:23, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> * Package name: rt2x00

> This package would contain version 2 of the rt2x00 drivers that are
> currently distributed as separate rt2400 and rt2500 packages (and a
> proposed rt2570 package).

Did you talk with Aurelien (maintainer of rt2400-source/2500-source)?  I'm 
just wondering - perhaps he has already worked on something like this, or 
planned to do so shortly?

>  It probably belongs in experimental initially.

I don't see why - there isn't an existing rt2x00 that would be replaced by a 
potentially non-working new version, so it won't do any harm in unstable, 
while getting wider exposure than it would in experimental.  A 'don't 
migrate to testing' RC bug would be a good idea, though.

greetings
-- vbi


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Re: Upload getting lost

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Florian Weimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Technically, this is not a dpkg-source but because dpkg (and APT) do
> not validate version numbers.  Some ISVs rely on this and they use
> forbidden characters in version strings ('_' seems to be quite common,
> for example).  And I suspect that there are no two programs in Debian
> which implement exactly the same version comparison algorithm, but
> this is a different story. 8-/

dpkg does verify the validity of version numbers. Maybe not to the
fullest limit of policy but there is a fair bit of checking.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 14 Apr 2006, Thiemo Seufer told this:

> Ognyan Kulev wrote:
>> Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>>> "HAM" is not an acronym, so "Ham Radio" would be more appropriate.
>>>
>>> Even better (IMHO) is the full term "Amateur Radio", but some may
>>> disagree. I've CC'd debian-hams for their input also.
>>
>> Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
>
> It is unnecessarily complicated.

Do we really want to cater to people who are thrown off by
 "(Ham)"? Would it not be a public service to steer such simple souls
 to something which may be better fit for them, like, say, Windows?

Since when has dumbing down debian been a goal?

manoj
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Re: Upload getting lost

[Bernhard R. Link]

* Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060414 14:55]:
> > Policy has (besides other things) the job of documentating current
> > practice.
> 
> Not quite correct.  Policy has the job of docmenting what is
>  technically correct, and selecting one of a number of equally viable
>  technical options where numerous possibilities exist.  The primary
>  purpose of policy is to ensure that diverse packages under different
>  maintainers can be seamlessly integrated.
> 
> Blindly ratifying incorrect common practices is not something
>  policy should ever do -- so by itself, this line of argument is not
>  convincing.

Except there is no "incorrect" here. (Except when you define policy
as correct, but then there is no more way to change policy). There
are simply to possibilites that are both technically almost eqivalent.

One of them is the one implemented by our tools, the other by
policy, and the two differ.

> Actually, a number of programs that check for version validity
>  would need to be changed, or no longer be considered authoritative,
>  so we have some code fixing to do in any case.

Policy also discourages versions not starting with a digit. But no tool
I have seen warns if it starts with a letter.

> What is the scope of the bug fixing required to bring the
>  programs in line with long established policy?

Noone knows. That's the problem.

Hochachtungsvoll,
  Bernhard R. Link

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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Thiemo Seufer]

Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2006, Thiemo Seufer told this:
> 
> > Ognyan Kulev wrote:
> >> Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> >>> "HAM" is not an acronym, so "Ham Radio" would be more appropriate.
> >>>
> >>> Even better (IMHO) is the full term "Amateur Radio", but some may
> >>> disagree. I've CC'd debian-hams for their input also.
> >>
> >> Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
> >
> > It is unnecessarily complicated.
> 
> Do we really want to cater to people who are thrown off by
>  "(Ham)"?

Yes. Debian shouldn't be the Linux Distribution of Cryptic Acronyms.

>  Would it not be a public service to steer such simple souls
>  to something which may be better fit for them, like, say, Windows?

I doubt Windows is a better fit.

> Since when has dumbing down debian been a goal?

What exactly was dumbed down here? Is there a non-Ham Amateur Radio
we would have to distinguish from?


Thiemo


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Ben Armstrong]

On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 14:29 +0100, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
> Yes. Debian shouldn't be the Linux Distribution of Cryptic Acronyms.

Perhaps you missed the point earlier in the thread that Ham isn't an
acronym?  Also, I don't think anyone with even a passing familiarity
with amateur radio seriously thinks Ham is cryptic.

> What exactly was dumbed down here? Is there a non-Ham Amateur Radio
> we would have to distinguish from?

DX, perhaps?  It seems to this outsider that both Ham and DX are
encompassed by the more general term "Amateur Radio".

Ben


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Re: Bug#362040: ITP: rt2x00 -- RT2400/2500/2570 wireless network drivers

[Ben Hutchings]

Adrian von Bidder wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 April 2006 00:23, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > * Package name: rt2x00
> 
> > This package would contain version 2 of the rt2x00 drivers that are
> > currently distributed as separate rt2400 and rt2500 packages (and a
> > proposed rt2570 package).
> 
> Did you talk with Aurelien (maintainer of rt2400-source/2500-source)?  I'm 
> just wondering - perhaps he has already worked on something like this, or 
> planned to do so shortly?

Yes, I have been in touch.  He intended to package rt2x00 version 2 but
found that the driver did not work for him.  We may end up
co-maintaining this.

> >  It probably belongs in experimental initially.
> 
> I don't see why - there isn't an existing rt2x00 that would be replaced by a 
> potentially non-working new version, so it won't do any harm in unstable, 
> while getting wider exposure than it would in experimental.  A 'don't 
> migrate to testing' RC bug would be a good idea, though.

I suppose that would be better.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
It is easier to write an incorrect program than to understand a correct one.


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Linas Žvirblis]

Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>>> Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
>> It is unnecessarily complicated.

[...]

> Since when has dumbing down debian been a goal?

It is not about "dumbing down Debian". It is about not having dumb names
for menu sections.

First of all, "Ham" is not a word, neither it is an acronym. It roughly
stands for "[H]andheld [a][m]ateur". So what does that make? "Amateur
(handheld amateur) radio". Makes no sense, does it?

The correct term would probably be "handheld amateur radio", but this
is, in my opinion, a bit too long for a section name.

I vote for "Amateur Radio".


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 10:40:03AM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 14:29 +0100, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
> > What exactly was dumbed down here? Is there a non-Ham Amateur Radio
> > we would have to distinguish from?
> 
> DX, perhaps?  It seems to this outsider that both Ham and DX are
> encompassed by the more general term "Amateur Radio".

Eh? "DX" means long distance, or sometimes particularly "outside this
country". It is not the opposite of ham.


Hamish
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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 04:43:32PM +0300, Linas ??virblis wrote:
> First of all, "Ham" is not a word, neither it is an acronym. It roughly
> stands for "[H]andheld [a][m]ateur". So what does that make? "Amateur
> (handheld amateur) radio". Makes no sense, does it?

What?!

> The correct term would probably be "handheld amateur radio", but this
> is, in my opinion, a bit too long for a section name.

Not only too long but completely wrong.

> I vote for "Amateur Radio".

We concur on that at least.

Hamish
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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 11:49:31AM +0100, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
> Ognyan Kulev wrote:
> > Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > > "HAM" is not an acronym, so "Ham Radio" would be more appropriate.
> > > 
> > > Even better (IMHO) is the full term "Amateur Radio", but some may
> > > disagree. I've CC'd debian-hams for their input also.
> > 
> > Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
> 
> It is unnecessarily complicated.

Given that the target audience of this menu category is hams, I don't
think it is necessary to write "Amateur (Ham) Radio". The target
audience will understand either term, and amateur is the proper name.

I think there is plenty of concensus for "Amateur Radio". Please let's
go with that and finish this discussion.

Hamish
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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Linas Žvirblis]

Hamish Moffatt wrote:

> Not only too long but completely wrong.

Yeah, I seem to be confusing things. Sorry for that.


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 14 Apr 2006, Thiemo Seufer outgrape:

> Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On 14 Apr 2006, Thiemo Seufer told this:
>>
>>> Ognyan Kulev wrote:
 Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> "HAM" is not an acronym, so "Ham Radio" would be more
> appropriate.
>
> Even better (IMHO) is the full term "Amateur Radio", but some
> may disagree. I've CC'd debian-hams for their input also.

 Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
>>>
>>> It is unnecessarily complicated.
>>
>> Do we really want to cater to people who are thrown off by
>> "(Ham)"?
>
> Yes. Debian shouldn't be the Linux Distribution of Cryptic Acronyms.

Ham is not an acronym. 

>> Would it not be a public service to steer such simple souls
>> to something which may be better fit for them, like, say, Windows?
>
> I doubt Windows is a better fit.

I think that is wehre the trend line is heading.

>> Since when has dumbing down debian been a goal?
>
> What exactly was dumbed down here? Is there a non-Ham Amateur Radio
> we would have to distinguish from?


To the practitioners, it is HAM radio. Not Amatuer radio --
 and the only reason we are considering not calling it ham since
 ignorant users should not be confused.  Sounds like dumbing down to
 me.

manoj

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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 14 Apr 2006, Linas Žvirblis stated:

> Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>
 Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
>>> It is unnecessarily complicated.
>
> [...]
>
>> Since when has dumbing down debian been a goal?
>
> It is not about "dumbing down Debian". It is about not having dumb
> names for menu sections.

Amateur radio is the dumb name, for people who are confused by
 what the practioners call it -- HAM radio.

> First of all, "Ham" is not a word, neither it is an acronym. It
> roughly stands for "[H]andheld [a][m]ateur". So what does that make?
> "Amateur (handheld amateur) radio". Makes no sense, does it?

Rubbish. This is revisionism -- HAM radio existed long before
 the equipment could be called hand held. HAM radio operators
 existed before WW II -- and the equipment was huge.

> The correct term would probably be "handheld amateur radio", but
> this is, in my opinion, a bit too long for a section name.

There may be need for such a category -- but thaty is not what
 HAM radio is.  Perhaps you should learn what we are talking about
 before you pontificate?

> I vote for "Amateur Radio".

I am so glad we don't vote for everything in this project.

manoj
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Re: Bug#354674: What on earth?

[Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo]

On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 07:58:05PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 07:09:55PM -0400, Adam C Powell IV wrote:
> > *Think* for a moment about the consequences.  This is not a simple
> > rebuild, this is a serious problem.
> 
> I agree and I take full responsibility for the issue. I'm sorry for the
> trouble. I'm fully willing to put back the .la files on request from the
> release team, who I should definitely have coordinated with beforehand.
> Note that I would have done so if I'd realized the magnitude of the
> problem, and not doing so was entirely my error.

  And this deserves applause. Recognizing errors, or lack of
  comunnication due to one, and showing a positive attitude is something
  that has to be more spread on this project.

  David, Daniel and other X team guys, my thanks for your great work,
  effort and positive attitude.
 

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Re: Bug#354674: What on earth?

[Adam C Powell IV]

On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 19:12 +0300, Daniel Stone wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 11:12:06AM -0400, Adam C Powell IV wrote:
> > Please tell me if I have this right:
> >   * You don't like .la files
> 
> Yes.
> 
> >   * So you're unilaterally removing them from a core package
> > (libxcursor) with dozens of reverse-depends, breaking all of
> > them
> 
> Yes.
> 
> >   * Even though they're a years-old and very well established
> > technology
> 
> .la files?  I wouldn't call them 'very well established'.

Okay, then 'widespread', as is evident from the number of broken
packages.

> >   * Which upstream libtool has not yet decided to eliminate ("It's
> > already under discussion")
> 
> And X.Org upstream are currently seriously discussing whether or not to
> eliminate libtool, at which point you get broken away.  This, believe it
> or not, a) improves portability, and b) makes you immune to further
> changes.

Okay, I misunderstood, s/libtool/Xorg/.  Even so, what "further
changes"?  There are no further changes yet, there are merely
discussions.  This doesn't change that you acted unilaterally.

> >   * And which has not been discussed on debian-devel or any other
> > Debian list as far as I can tell (Google search).
> 
> Yes.

This is the main problem.  In numerous other transitions, from udev/hal
to C++, we had fair warning and could coordinate release schedules.  See
Steve's post.

> > Can you really be serious?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > For example, if the maintainer of GLib decides (s)he doesn't like the
> > way it handles modules, and upstream *might* at some point change the
> > behavior, is that alone enough justification to change it and break all
> > of its dozens of reverse-depending packages?
> 
> If the dependent packages can be fixed with a rebuild, and the reason is
> solid, rather than, 'I'm bored'?  Yes.

So I'm supposed to rebuild all of the dependencies between my package
and libxcursor, like multiple GNOME and KDE libraries (GNOME in my
case), just to build my package?  And then what?  Upload it?  I can't,
because those intermediate libs are broken in unstable, so it won't
autobuild.

And who's to say the interfaces won't change before the next upload of
those intermediates?  For example, GNOME is in the middle of its
2.12-2.14 transition, with dozens of packages in flight from alioth via
experimental.  It would *really* have helped if you had let them know of
these plans *before* they started uploading 2.14 packages.

Now everybody needs to wait while the maintainers of those packages
build and upload.  In the correct order.  Regardless of other release
plans.  With no notice.

*Think* for a moment about the consequences.  This is not a simple
rebuild, this is a serious problem.

> Is a rebuild really that phenomenally onerous for you?  In the time
> spent arguing this point, tons of packages could've been simply rebuilt.
> I don't see where the problem lies, unless you happen to enjoy random
> flamebait more than actual productive work.

Flamebait?  Well, if you consider discussions on stranding a large
fraction of Debian's 1000 part-time volunteer developers without the
ability to build their packages in unstable to be "random flamebait", I
really can't help you.

Regards,
-Adam
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Re: Upload getting lost

[Florian Weimer]

* Manoj Srivastava:

> Not quite correct.  Policy has the job of docmenting what is
>  technically correct, and selecting one of a number of equally viable
>  technical options where numerous possibilities exist.  The primary
>  purpose of policy is to ensure that diverse packages under different
>  maintainers can be seamlessly integrated.

But the current specification has failed us in this regard.  It seems
that every developer who reads the version specification in the policy
interprets it differently.  We have at least four slightly different
version comparison algorithms in the archive.


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Linas Žvirblis]

Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> Amateur radio is the dumb name, for people who are confused by
>  what the practioners call it -- HAM radio.

It is translated as "amateur radio" to some languages. Others translate
it entirely to something specific to that language. And some use HAM.

Can you claim that HAM is the most common name for this worldwide?

>> The correct term would probably be "handheld amateur radio", but
>> this is, in my opinion, a bit too long for a section name.
> 
> There may be need for such a category -- but that is not what
>  HAM radio is.  Perhaps you should learn what we are talking about
>  before you pontificate?

I, as everybody else here, am only trying to make things better. My
explanation was wrong and I acknowledged my mistake in my previous post.
I will acknowledge it again, if that makes you fell better.

HAM does not stand for "handheld amateur radio". My explanation that it
does is FALSE. I was unintentionally referring to a different thing.
Sorry for the confusion.

>> I vote for "Amateur Radio".
> 
> I am so glad we don't vote for everything in this project.

Note that my original suggestion actually was to name it "HAM Radio",
because I was told that HAM stands for what I have previously written.
Now that I know that it does not, I find it a bad name.

"Amateur Radio", as fuzzy as it may be, is at least literally
translatable, and HAM is not. Please realize that English menu is not
targeted at English speaking world only. It is also a default for
situations where translation is not available.

I expressed my concerns and will not be commenting on this issue
anymore. Sorry again for any confusion my previous posts might have caused.

Regards,
Linas


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Re: Bug#354674: What on earth?

[Adam C Powell IV]

On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 19:58 -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 07:09:55PM -0400, Adam C Powell IV wrote:
> > *Think* for a moment about the consequences.  This is not a simple
> > rebuild, this is a serious problem.
> 
> I agree and I take full responsibility for the issue. I'm sorry for the
> trouble. I'm fully willing to put back the .la files on request from the
> release team, who I should definitely have coordinated with beforehand.
> Note that I would have done so if I'd realized the magnitude of the
> problem, and not doing so was entirely my error.

Wow.  Thank you.  This would help in the short term, though I suspect
the damage is done and the other packages are "fixing" their "bugs" at
this point.  I agree that the release team should decide.

I hope such problems can be avoided in the future.

Cheers,
-Adam
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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Miles Bader]

"André Luiz Rodrigues Ferreira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Any particular reason for not just using xpdf?
>
> Evince have more resources and combine with the Xfce interface.
> In the reality I would like to keep the applications with the same
> appearance. Possibly gtk2.

Er, that's nice, but as long as xpdf is (much) faster, lighter-weight,
and renders documents much more nicely, wouldn't it make more sense to
use it?

I like evince's pretty widgets too (though its keybindings suck), but
every time I try it, I give up in disgust after a short while because
it's so slow and dysfunctional -- and this this is on a normal system;
on a "lightweight" system, evince makes even less sense.

If, someday, evince becomes a better choice, you can switch then...

-Miles
-- 
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Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)

[Blake Harms]

hey, i was searching for arabic translator and came upon your email, could you take the time to translate this one small peice of arabic into english for me, it should probably be less than a word or so...
thanks for your time-  blake

Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Marc Haber]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:29:45 +0100, Thiemo Seufer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On 14 Apr 2006, Thiemo Seufer told this:
>> 
>> > Ognyan Kulev wrote:
>> >> Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>> >>> "HAM" is not an acronym, so "Ham Radio" would be more appropriate.
>> >>>
>> >>> Even better (IMHO) is the full term "Amateur Radio", but some may
>> >>> disagree. I've CC'd debian-hams for their input also.
>> >>
>> >> Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
>> >
>> > It is unnecessarily complicated.
>> 
>> Do we really want to cater to people who are thrown off by
>>  "(Ham)"?
>
>Yes. Debian shouldn't be the Linux Distribution of Cryptic Acronyms.

Actually, the word Ham is nowadays being used as the opposite of Spam,
"good, wanted" E-mail. I'm all for removing the misleading, outdated
expression for amateur radio.

Greetings
Marc

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Work-needing packages report for Apr 14, 2006

[wnpp]

The following is a listing of packages for which help has been requested
through the WNPP (Work-Needing and Prospective Packages) system in the
last week.

Total number of orphaned packages: 294 (new: 18)
Total number of packages offered up for adoption: 88 (new: 3)
Total number of packages requested help for: 20 (new: 0)

Please refer to http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/ for more information.



The following packages have been orphaned:

   apple2 (#361344), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: Apple ][ Emulator
 Reverse Depends: xapple2
 Installations reported by Popcon: 63

   astrolog (#361346), orphaned 6 days ago (non-free)
 Description: Customizable astrology chart calculation program
 Installations reported by Popcon: 52

   atanks (#362084), orphaned 2 days ago
 Description: tank-battling game
 Reverse Depends: atanks
 Installations reported by Popcon: 204

   cfi (#361294), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: Copyright finns inte, book about hacker culture.
 Installations reported by Popcon: 44

   libticables3 (#362163), orphaned yesterday
 Description: support library for Texas Instruments link cables
 Reverse Depends: libticables3-dev libticalcs4 libticalcs4-dev tiemu
   tilp
 Installations reported by Popcon: 85

   libticalcs4 (#362164), orphaned yesterday
 Description: provides functions to communicate with TI calculators
 Reverse Depends: libticalcs4-dev tiemu tilp
 Installations reported by Popcon: 73

   libtifiles0 (#362166), orphaned yesterday
 Description: Texas Instruments calculators file formats library
 Reverse Depends: libticalcs4 libticalcs4-dev libtifiles0-dev tiemu
   tilp
 Installations reported by Popcon: 79

   ogle (#361297), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: DVD player with support for DVD menus
 Reverse Depends: ogle-gui okle
 Installations reported by Popcon: 599

   ogle-gui (#361298), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: User interface to ogle (Gtk)
 Installations reported by Popcon: 639

   plotmtv (#361293), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: multipurpose X11 plotting program.
 Installations reported by Popcon: 103

   pmidi (#361299), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: A command line midi player for ALSA
 Reverse Depends: songwrite
 Installations reported by Popcon: 516

   skinedit (#362161), orphaned yesterday
 Description: skin editor for TiEmu
 Installations reported by Popcon: 8

   sppc (#361296), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: Simple Panel Plot Composer
 Installations reported by Popcon: 12

   tela (#361292), orphaned 6 days ago
 Description: interactive tensor language
 Installations reported by Popcon: 17

   thai-system (#362490), orphaned today
 Description: A meta package for Thai environment under X11
 Installations reported by Popcon: 1

   tidev-modules (#362162), orphaned yesterday
 Description: Sources for drivers for Texas Instruments calculators
   link cables
 Reverse Depends: libticables3-dev
 Installations reported by Popcon: 20

   tiemu (#362159), orphaned yesterday
 Description: Texas Instruments calculators emulator
 Installations reported by Popcon: 42

   tilp (#362157), orphaned yesterday
 Description: TI calculator <-> PC communication program for X
 Installations reported by Popcon: 41

276 older packages have been omitted from this listing, see
http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/orphaned for a complete list.



The following packages have been given up for adoption:

   glimpse (#361710), offered 4 days ago (non-free)
 Description: search quickly through entire file systems
 Installations reported by Popcon: 100

   libnjb (#361719), offered 4 days ago
 Description: Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox library
 Reverse Depends: banshee gnomad2 libnjb-cil libnjb-dev
   libnjb-examples neutrino
 Installations reported by Popcon: 190

   python-medusa (#362532), offered today
 Reverse Depends: destar python-medusa
 Installations reported by Popcon: 56

85 older packages have been omitted from this listing, see
http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/rfa_bypackage for a complete list.



For the following packages help is requested:

   aboot (#315592), requested 294 days ago
 Description: Alpha bootloader: Looking for co-maintainers
 Reverse Depends: aboot aboot-cross dfsbuild ltsp-server
 Installations reported by Popcon: 51

   athcool (#278442), requested 534 days ago
 Description: Enable powersaving mode for Athlon/Duron processors
 Installations reported by Popcon: 207

   cvs (#354176), requested 49 days ago
 Description: Concurrent Versions System
 Reverse Depends: bonsai cvs-autoreleasedeb cvs-bu

Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Miles Bader]

Giuseppe Sacco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> As other pointed out, does basically the same job as xpdf but pulls half
>> of the Gnome.
>
> If you just want to display PDF files then probably xpdf is a better
> option, but Evince has a really nice feature: it show TIFF multipage.
> This is the *only* free software program I am aware of, that can show
> multipage tiff file.

Er, yeah, but ... how often do people want to (a) just view pdf files,
and how often do they want to (b) view multipage tiff files?

I'd say (a)/(b) is about 1000:1 in the average user population...

-Miles
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(^o^;
(()))
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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 11:17:50AM +0900, Miles Bader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "André Luiz Rodrigues Ferreira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> Any particular reason for not just using xpdf?
> >
> > Evince have more resources and combine with the Xfce interface.
> > In the reality I would like to keep the applications with the same
> > appearance. Possibly gtk2.
> 
> Er, that's nice, but as long as xpdf is (much) faster, lighter-weight,
> and renders documents much more nicely, wouldn't it make more sense to
> use it?

The "renders documents much more nicely" is absolutely wrong and is the
main reason why i switched from xpdf to evince.

Mike


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Re: Work-needing packages report for Apr 14, 2006

[Felipe Sateler]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> The following is a listing of packages for which help has been requested
> through the WNPP (Work-Needing and Prospective Packages) system in the
> last week.
> 
> Total number of orphaned packages: 294 (new: 18)
> Total number of packages offered up for adoption: 88 (new: 3)
> Total number of packages requested help for: 20 (new: 0)
I've bee noticing this list has lots of old bugs specially in the RFH
section. However, old bugs aren't necessarily bad. The thing is that lots
of these bugs have had answers for a long time now, some even have led to
the creation of alioth projects to handle the packages, and the bugs are
still open. It appears to me that, while more help may be welcomed to these
packages, most don't seem to really need help anymore, and these old bugs
clutter the wnpp reports and make them less useful, and a bit annoying (I
confess I've checked the RFH for gtkpod several times now, to only find
help isn't really needed anymore). Shouldn't package maintainers close
these bugs when they have received help?
As an informational note, of the 20 RFH of this month, only 5 are newer than
50 days old, with 7 over a year old.

-- 

Felipe Sateler


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Ron Johnson [Fri, Apr 14 2006, 03:00:44AM]:
> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 09:40 +0200, Giuseppe Sacco wrote:
> > If you just want to display PDF files then probably xpdf is a better

> > option, but Evince has a really nice feature: it show TIFF multipage.
> > This is the *only* free software program I am aware of, that can show
> > multipage tiff file.

Why should I care about TIFF multipage when in 99% I need a 

P.
D.
F.

reader?

And I think that multipage TIFF support is very specific feature while
you are constructing a meta package for generic desktop.

And I imagine that imagemagick (display) could display multipage tiffs,
so why should one install evince for that?

Eduard.


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Torsten Marek]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Eduard Bloch wrote:
> #include 
> * André Luiz Rodrigues Ferreira [Tue, Apr 11 2006, 01:44:57PM]:
>> Hi !
>>
>> I'm creating a meta package for install a lite desktop for old
>> machines with poor hardware.
>> I would like to receive opinions about my packages list:
>>
>> - x-window-system-core
>> - xfce4 (beautiful!)
> 
> Depends. IceWM with a tiny Filemanager (eg. emelfm) suffies my idea of
> "light desktop" much, much more. I would say - set 
> "xfce4 | x-window-manager".
> 
>> - evince
> 
> As other pointed out, does basically the same job as xpdf but pulls half
> of the Gnome.
> 
>> - eog
> 
> As said, Gnome bloat. Use gqview or pornview.

Well, don't take pornview or you'll soon have a bug report about politically
incorrect package names;-)

> 
>> - gaim
> 
> Please depend on "gaim | psi | licq" or so.
> 
>> - arj
> 
> Who cares about arj nowadays? I suggest installing the "unp" package
> instead, it will tell user which program is needed to install for a
> certain type of archive.
> 
>> - file-roller
> 
> Is there really no other choice without GNOME dependencies?
You could use rox-filer, which is (in my opinion) much more useful than xffm4
and quite fast.

Best,

Torsten

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Re: Bug#354674: What on earth?

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 08:25:55PM -0400, Adam C Powell IV wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 19:58 -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 07:09:55PM -0400, Adam C Powell IV wrote:
> > > *Think* for a moment about the consequences.  This is not a simple
> > > rebuild, this is a serious problem.

> > I agree and I take full responsibility for the issue. I'm sorry for the
> > trouble. I'm fully willing to put back the .la files on request from the
> > release team, who I should definitely have coordinated with beforehand.
> > Note that I would have done so if I'd realized the magnitude of the
> > problem, and not doing so was entirely my error.

> Wow.  Thank you.  This would help in the short term, though I suspect
> the damage is done and the other packages are "fixing" their "bugs" at
> this point.  I agree that the release team should decide.

You won't get any argument from the release team about whether it's ok for
.la files to be dropped from packages, in cases where the library also
integrates with pkg-config.  In addition to pkg-config being much easier to
integrate with plain Makefiles, its dependency handling is much better able
to cope with changes to library relationships.

It's just the timing that becomes an issue.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Miles Bader]

Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The "renders documents much more nicely" is absolutely wrong

No it's not.  Perhaps you haven't used xpdf recently.

In particular, xpdf seems to do a _much_ better job of anti-aliasing
fonts than evince:  xpdf's antialiasing generally manages to be both
smooth _and_ still maintain readable high-contrast edges, whereas
evince's antialiasing is often a fuzzy mess.

I don't know why this is -- I'd think both would eventually end up using
the same freetype/xft/whatever library to do font rendering -- but it's
the main thing that quickly drives me away from evince every time I try
it.  Having readable fonts is pretty basic for a pdf-viewer!

[xpdf used to have pretty poor font support, but it's become very good
these days.]

-miles
-- 
We live, as we dream -- alone


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 09:57:14AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2006, Linas ??virblis stated:
> 
> > Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >
>  Is there a problem with using "Amateur (Ham) Radio"?
> >>> It is unnecessarily complicated.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> Since when has dumbing down debian been a goal?
> >
> > It is not about "dumbing down Debian". It is about not having dumb
> > names for menu sections.
> 
> Amateur radio is the dumb name, for people who are confused by
>  what the practioners call it -- HAM radio.

This might be US-centric. The use of the formal name "amateur radio" is
much more common here in Australia.


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Soliciting keys for the debconf6 keysigning party in Oaxtepec

[Aníbal Monsalve Salazar]

Hello,

If you intend to participate in the debconf6 keysigning party in
Oaxtepec, please send your ascii armored public key as explained at
[0] by Saturday, 6th of May, 2006.

[0] http://people.debian.org/~anibal/ksp-dc6/ksp-dc6.html

Best Regards,

Aníbal Monsalve Salazar
-- 
http://v7w.com/anibal


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Bug#362652: ITP: sork-forwards-h3 -- autoforward module for Horde Framework

[Gregory Colpart]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Gregory Colpart (evolix) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: sork-forwards-h3
  Version : 3.0
  Upstream Author : The Horde Team <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.horde.org/forwards/
* License : Apache License 1.1
  Description : autoforward module for Horde Framework

 Forwards is the Horde module for setting user e-mail forwards
 via the forward mechanism supported by several popular mailers.
 Forwards provides fairly complete support for setting .forward
 style forwards on Sendmail, Courier, or Qmail mail based systems
 via an FTP transport. It also has drivers for Mdaemon, Exim SQL,
 Exim LDAP, Custom SQL, and SOAP based systems.


I use Forwards on my personal mail server. This is a "must-have" for
a webmail suite. I have already beta packages but I want to ask
confirmation to debian-legal for the license.
Note that I will try to submit a patch to upstream for Postfix LDAP
driver because I use it.


Regards,
-- 
Gregory Colpart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  GnuPG:1024D/C1027A0E
Evolix - Informatique et Logiciels Libres http://www.evolix.fr/


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Don Armstrong]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, Torsten Marek wrote:
> >> - eog
> > 
> > As said, Gnome bloat. Use gqview or pornview.
> 
> Well, don't take pornview or you'll soon have a bug report about
> politically incorrect package names;-)

Try feh. Much, much more powerful, and much, much nicer.


Don Armstrong

-- 
The sheer ponderousness of the panel's opinion ... refutes its thesis
far more convincingly than anything I might say. The panel's labored
effort to smother the Second Amendment by sheer body weight has all
the grace of a sumo wrestler trying to kill a rattlesnake by sitting
on it--and is just as likely to succeed.
 -- Alex Kozinski in Silveira V Lockyer

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Re: Bug#361418: [Proposal] new Debian menu structure

[Christian Perrier]

> "Amateur Radio", as fuzzy as it may be, is at least literally
> translatable, and HAM is not. Please realize that English menu is not
> targeted at English speaking world only. It is also a default for
> situations where translation is not available.


Rebounding on that mail, but actually more expressing my general
feeling (and yet another nice Frenglish sentence).

I also voluntarily don't react directly to Manoj's mail, which I found
somewhat offensive towards people who want to make Debian accessible
to as many users as possible.

Menu entries have something specific: they are read both by people who
will try to find something pertaining to their categories (here,
people looking for "HAM" stuff) AND by people who are seeking
something else but will of course cross the other entries.

In short, they are by definition read by everybody.

This is why I think we should make them accessible to all users. This
is not "dumbification", this is just basic accessibility.

I don't really consider myself as a total nerd when it comes at
computing stuff, but the jargon behind "HAM Radio" has been mystery
for me for very long. I suppose that even HAM Radio specialists
themselves say "Amateur Radio" when they talk about their hobby to non
specialistsjust because they want to be understood.

So, this is why I suggest using "Amateur Radio" to the menu package
maintainers.




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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Christian Perrier]

> Therefore I suggest doing this...
> 
>  - I don't know (both of them)
>  - KDE desktop environment
>  - Gnome desktop environment
> 
> ...and leaving the specialized tasks for CDDs, because that is what they
> are for, right?


Well, I haven't followed the rest of the thread (the part where people
wonder which package could pertain to a "Light desktop" task) but I've
seen Joey suggest himself to turn it into a task. So, if Joey himself,
who is actually quite conservative when it comes at new tasks for
tasksel, mentions that he thinks that a "light desktop" task is worth
it, I tend to give him the needed credit.




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Re: Upload getting lost

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 12:36:39PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 10:08:21AM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

>>> The problem is the : in your .changes name. The match is:
>>> re_taint_free = re.compile(r"^[-+~/\.\w]+$");

>>> You probably want to use a + instead.

>> So you are telling me this is a dpkg-source bug? The filenames are
>> chosen by dpkg-source.

> Which uses debian/changelog ... the ":" is used to indicate a
> "period", period can be used to use smaller upstream version if you
> increased it by error (or if you really need to use an older
> upstream version).

> The period should be a single digit in most cases, and here you have a
> period with dots in it.

As other people have pointed out later in the thread, my point was
that I was _not_ having an epoch with dots in it; my version string
was 0:1.2.7:1.2.8-1, which is explicitly allowed by policy (if there
is an epoch, then the upstream version can contain a colon.) and
parses as:

 - epoch: 0
 - upstream version: 1.2.7:1.2.8
 - Debian revision: 1


I don't particularly care whether we allow colons in upstream version
or not, but the behaviour of katie / britney / dpkg / ... and policy
should definitely be consistent.

Whether this is achieved by having dpkg-source not use ":" in the
filenames even when the upstream version contains one or in another
way is, I suppose, open to discussion.

-- 
Lionel


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Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 09:08 -0300, André Luiz Rodrigues Ferreira wrote:
> 2006/4/11, Bernhard R. Link <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > * Andr Luiz Rodrigues Ferreira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060411 18:45]:
> > > - x-window-system-core
> > > - xfce4 (beautiful!)
> > > - gdm
> > [...]
> > > - gnome-ppp
> > > - gnome-utils
> >
> > Definitions differ, but I'd not call something "light" pulling in
> > half of gnome. What about "Debian Light Gnome Desktop"?
> 
> Is true...but I don't are using nautilus and metacity, only some gnome
> applications.

It's still pulling in many GNOME libs and apps.  Even AbiWord sucks
in many GNOME libs.

Better, IMHO, to stick with, _at_the_heaviest_, XFce and GTK2 apps.  

Is there *any* "nice" semi-lightweight WP that doesn't consume mass
quantities of RAM?  Something along the size of Word & Excel 97 or
Word Perfect 6.0, that use GTK2 and work well on 300MHz machines. 
Doesn't even have to interpret MSFT files.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA

"Nothing is so admirable in politics as a short memory."
John Kenneth Galbraith