Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 26 janvier 2006 à 20:04 -0500, David Nusinow a écrit :
> On the other hand, adding languages only adds to the complexity and tools
> that a Debian developer should know to be effective.

Despite the days of nightmare I have spent on perl, I couldn't claim to
be "effective" with perl. When I have an issue with a perl script in
Debian, I call for help from another developer. When there are hundreds
of developers, you can always find one with the skills and some time to
help. This is true the other way round: there are now enough developers
skilled with python, so that a developer with a python issue can call
for help.

> I've learned large
> chunks of my bash and perl knowledge to reduce this problem in my own work,
> rather than write it in the language I would have chosen had I been first
> to the site. While perl has its share of problems, it's not that bad and
> refusing to work in it is a little absurd.

Perl is a completely absurd and counter-intuitive language. When you're
used to clear and strict types, you have to wonder how that dumb
software will interpret it and what will happen at each line of code.
Writing code in perl is a pain that takes me 10 times longer than
writing it in python - for the things I manage to write. I'm not event
thinking about understanding most perl scripts out there: the TIMTOWTDI
philosophy leads to as many kinds of programming as there are perl
programmers. In other words: you cannot only learn perl, you have to
think in perl. Which is a very hard task for people used to structured
languages.
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom

Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 09:42:47AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeudi 26 janvier 2006 à 20:04 -0500, David Nusinow a écrit :
> > On the other hand, adding languages only adds to the complexity and tools
> > that a Debian developer should know to be effective.
> 
> Despite the days of nightmare I have spent on perl, I couldn't claim to
> be "effective" with perl. When I have an issue with a perl script in
> Debian, I call for help from another developer.

Same as I do with Python scripts. Although I should add that I have not
spent days of nightmare on python.

The point, however, is that it's rather silly to add yet another
scripting language to the set of Essential packages. Sure, it'd be nice;
but then tomorrow someone else will come along who will claim that
Python is sucky and that Ruby is Teh Thing, and we can start this all
over from the start again.

Add to that the fact that there are people who'd actually prefer the set
of Essential packages to get smaller, not larger (ask on -embedded if
you care), and you'll see why a move to add an extra scripting language
isn't going to be very popular.

-- 
.../ -/ ---/ .--./ / .--/ .-/ .../ -/ ../ -./ --./ / -.--/ ---/ ..-/ .-./ / -/
../ --/ ./ / .--/ ../ -/ / / -../ ./ -.-./ ---/ -../ ../ -./ --./ / --/
-.--/ / .../ ../ --./ -./ .-/ -/ ..-/ .-./ ./ .-.-.-/ / --/ ---/ .-./ .../ ./ /
../ .../ / ---/ ..-/ -/ -../ .-/ -/ ./ -../ / -/ ./ -.-./ / -./ ---/ .-../
---/ --./ -.--/ / .-/ -./ -.--/ .--/ .-/ -.--/ .-.-.-/ / ...-.-/


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Re: returning emeritus developer, no response from [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Joe Smith]

"Adeodato Simó" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Can we please fast-track this clairvoyant NM?


Umm... I belive that is the policy. He needs to have his email read, and 
then answer a few questions.
The process for returning emeritus Developers is intentionaly much easier 
than normal NM, as they
obviously were able to pass once before, so now the only important thing is 
to check that they still remember.






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Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Florian Weimer]

* Matt Zimmerman:

> One of the appealing things about the Python language is their "batteries
> included" philosophy: users can assume that the standard library is
> available, documentation and examples are written to the full API, etc.

Would this really be a problem if the minimal Python implementation
does not install an interpreter under /usr/bin?


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Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 04:16:20PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Matt Zimmerman:
> 
> > One of the appealing things about the Python language is their "batteries
> > included" philosophy: users can assume that the standard library is
> > available, documentation and examples are written to the full API, etc.
> 
> Would this really be a problem if the minimal Python implementation
> does not install an interpreter under /usr/bin?

I cannot speak on behalf of upstream on this point; I can only summarize our
previous discussions.

-- 
 - mdz


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Re: returning emeritus developer, no response from [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Thijs Kinkhorst]

On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 10:22 -0500, Joe Smith wrote:
> "Adeodato Simó" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >  Can we please fast-track this clairvoyant NM?
> 
> Umm... I belive that is the policy. He needs to have his email read, and 
> then answer a few questions.
> The process for returning emeritus Developers is intentionaly much easier 
> than normal NM, as they
> obviously were able to pass once before, so now the only important thing is 
> to check that they still remember.

Too bad that this has to be explained: Adeodato jokingly suggested that
Nathanael appearently knows why the mail wasn't answered and must be a
clairvoyant (he can predict what happens at the DAM without being a
DAM). Being a clairvoyant, Nathanael is a great asset to the project and
should be fast-tracked. This has nothing to do with the original poster,
who, IMO, is just a bit too impatient.


Thijs


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[OT] Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Adam Heath]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Wouter Verhelst wrote:

> The point, however, is that it's rather silly to add yet another
> scripting language to the set of Essential packages. Sure, it'd be nice;
> but then tomorrow someone else will come along who will claim that
> Python is sucky and that Ruby is Teh Thing, and we can start this all
> over from the start again.

FORTH!


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what is the current status of kat in debian?

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

Can someone tell me about the current status of kat in Debian? There 
were multiple ITPs filed at some point of time


http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=309068

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=340616

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=328610

Which tells that people are obviously interested in getting it into 
Debian. From 309068's bug log, Issac Clerencia was willing to sponsor 
its uploads. But then there was no response from the original bug 
reporter Jean-Remy Falleri. The link to the uploaded debian packages 
http://jr.falleri.free.fr/fichiers/debian/kat is also not working.


Can someone look into this and take appropriate action?

thanks
raju

--
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: what is the current status of kat in debian?

[Fathi Boudra]

kamaraju kusumanchi a écrit :
Can someone tell me about the current status of kat in Debian? There 
were multiple ITPs filed at some point of time


http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=309068

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=340616

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=328610

Which tells that people are obviously interested in getting it into 
Debian. From 309068's bug log, Issac Clerencia was willing to sponsor 
its uploads. But then there was no response from the original bug 
reporter Jean-Remy Falleri. The link to the uploaded debian packages 
http://jr.falleri.free.fr/fichiers/debian/kat is also not working.


Can someone look into this and take appropriate action?

thanks
raju


i co-maintain the package with jonas gennant and isaac is our sponsor.
the current release 0.6.4 is ready and wait in debian subversion 
repository (pkg-kde/kde-extras).



Roberto carpuccio, upstream author, will soon release 0.7.0, a complete 
re-write of kat.

we are waiting for this release to upload.

cheers,

Fathi


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Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Matthias Klose]

Florian Weimer writes:
> * Matt Zimmerman:
> 
> > One of the appealing things about the Python language is their "batteries
> > included" philosophy: users can assume that the standard library is
> > available, documentation and examples are written to the full API, etc.

which batteries do you mean? my notebook did ship with a standard and
a long-life/extended battery ;) Upstream's batteries include
development things as well ([1]), which doesn't really fit Debian's
practice to split runtime and development files, and renaming python
to python-runtime, python-dev to python doesn't really help. Even the
python windows installer offers options to disable the installation of
some parts of the package. A proposal was to make a user better aware
of differences in packaging, i.e. by hinting to a package when an
ImportError exception is raised ([1] as well).

> Would this really be a problem if the minimal Python implementation
> does not install an interpreter under /usr/bin?

sounds interesting. maybe provide it as /usr/lib/python/bin/python

  Matthias

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2006/01/msg00135.html


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Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 janvier 2006 à 12:46 +0100, Wouter Verhelst a écrit :
> The point, however, is that it's rather silly to add yet another
> scripting language to the set of Essential packages.

Personally I don't care about the Essential status. However we have to
accept the use of python in more base and required packages. This brings
python in as a dependency, that's all. But it has the same consequences
as making it essential. If, as it has already been suggested, software
like init or adduser was replaced by python implementations, would they
be rejected?

> Sure, it'd be nice;
> but then tomorrow someone else will come along who will claim that
> Python is sucky and that Ruby is Teh Thing, and we can start this all
> over from the start again.

I hear this argument against python all the time, and frankly, if people
were listening to such arguments, we'd all be programming COBOL on VMS.
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom


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Re: what is the current status of kat in debian?

[Jonas Genannt]

Fathi Boudra wrote:
>> Can someone look into this and take appropriate action?

The problem is, that kat is working _only_ with sqlite3 < 3.2.6! Otherwise it 
will crash!

So we are waiting for 0.7 because this version is an complete rewrite of kat,
and will work with all sqlite versions.

Roberto, the upstream author said that kat 0.7 will be ready on the end of 
February!

I hope now it's clear why kat is not in debian yet.

Greets,
Jonas


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Re: what is the current status of kat in debian?

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

Jonas Genannt wrote:


Fathi Boudra wrote:
 


Can someone look into this and take appropriate action?
 



The problem is, that kat is working _only_ with sqlite3 < 3.2.6! Otherwise it 
will crash!

So we are waiting for 0.7 because this version is an complete rewrite of kat,
and will work with all sqlite versions.

Roberto, the upstream author said that kat 0.7 will be ready on the end of 
February!

I hope now it's clear why kat is not in debian yet.

Greets,
Jonas

 

Thanks for the all replies. They were very helpful. I have decided to 
wait for the 0.7 version.


raju

--
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Bug#350231: ITP: libsocket++ -- a family of C++ classes for Socket Operations

[James Vega]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


* Package name: libsocket++
  Version : 1.12.12
  Upstream Author : Herbert Straub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.linuxhacker.at/socketxx/download
* License : 
  Description : a family of C++ classes for Socket Operations

The socket++ library defines a family of C++ classes that can be used more
effectively than directly calling the underlying low-level system functions.
One distinct advantage of the socket++ is that it has the same interface as
that of the iostream so that the users can perform type-safe input output.

Copyright Notice:
-
Copyright (C) 1992-1996 Gnanasekaran Swaminathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Permission is granted to use at your own risk and distribute this software
in source and  binary forms provided  the above copyright notice and  this
paragraph are  preserved on all copies.  This software is provided "as is"
with no express or implied warranty.


Copyright Notice:
-
Portions Copyright (C) 2002-2003 Herbert Straub for all my changes (see
ChangeLog)

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (499, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.14-debil-3
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)


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Re: Bug#350231: ITP: libsocket++ -- a family of C++ classes for Socket Operations

[Russ Allbery]

James Vega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Copyright Notice:
> -
> Copyright (C) 1992-1996 Gnanasekaran Swaminathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Permission is granted to use at your own risk and distribute this
> software in source and binary forms provided the above copyright notice
> and this paragraph are preserved on all copies.  This software is
> provided "as is" with no express or implied warranty.

That license doesn't appear to grant the right to distribute modified
works.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?

[Junichi Uekawa]

Hi,

> > Sure, it'd be nice;
> > but then tomorrow someone else will come along who will claim that
> > Python is sucky and that Ruby is Teh Thing, and we can start this all
> > over from the start again.
> 
> I hear this argument against python all the time, and frankly, if people
> were listening to such arguments, we'd all be programming COBOL on VMS.

As long as it's safe to work with a world-writable current directory
/tmp, I wouldn't mind either way.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-security/2006/01/msg00010.html

I think the conclusion about LD_PATH was 
python includes the 'current directory of the executed binary'
ruby includes the 'current directory', thus unsafe.


regards,
junichi
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proc is mounted after sid cdebootstrap run, who's doing it?

[Junichi Uekawa]

Hi,

cdebootstrap sid regression test has been failing for the last few days.
who's mounting /proc in postinst and leaving it ?


 -> debootstrap finished
 -> copying local configuration
  -> Installing apt-lines
Refreshing the base.tgz
 -> upgrading packages
 -> mounting /proc filesystem
mount: /proc already mounted or /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283/proc busy
mount: according to mtab, /proc is mounted on /proc
 -> Aborting with an error
 -> cleaning the build env
-> removing directory /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283 and its subdirectories
rmdir: /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283/sys: Device or resource busy
rmdir: /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283/dev/pts: Device or resource busy
rmdir: /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283/dev/shm: Device or resource busy
rmdir: /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283/dev: Directory not empty
rmdir: /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283/proc: Device or resource busy
rmdir: /var/cache/pbuilder/build//6283: Directory not empty


regards,
junichi
-- 
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