notes on deckit WAP phone simulator

[venkat prasad]

sir,
 
  can u please give me the information bout the decik WAP phone simulator.i.e., the brief description about the phone simulator.
 
 
   thanking you
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Re: notes on deckit WAP phone simulator

[Adrian von Bidder]

On Saturday 04 June 2005 07.50, venkat prasad wrote:
> sir,
>
>   can u please give me the information bout the decik WAP phone
> simulator.i.e., the brief description about the phone simulator.

As far as I can tell, Debian does not ship the decit WAP phone simulator, so 
I don't know what information we should be able to give you.

thank you 
-- vbi

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important vorbis-tools bug solved. possible accept for sarge? please, Accept if.

[SZERVÁC Attila]

 Dear Release Team!:-)

 I think: it is a Grave usability bug in Sarge, but, THX 2 Adeodato Simó,
it is now solved.

 Please, Accept this important bugfix for Sarge. THX!!

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Adeodato Simó wrote:

> >  Please, help 2 solve this problem!!
>
>   Will do, but sorry, not for sarge. Nobody able or interested in fixing
>   noticed earlier. :(
>
>
> Changes:
>  vorbis-tools (1.0.1-1.4) unstable; urgency=low
>  .
>* Authorized NMU.
>  .
>* Restore speex support (closes: #306809). This had been lost in the
>  previous upload due to speex 1.1 having moved its include files from
>  /usr/include to /usr/include/speex.
>  .
>  + debian/rules: add -I/usr/include/speex to CFLAGS (and export it too).

 THX!

Re: Debian as "Google summer of code" mentor?

[Cesar Martinez Izquierdo]

El Viernes 03 Junio 2005 01:57, Adam Heath escribió:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Matthijs Kooijman wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > as you've probably heard, Google has a "summer of code" initiative to
> > stimulate open source coding. They are looking for mentors to support the
> > coders. Shouldn't Debian be on that list?
> >
> > Matthijs
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/summer-discuss/browse_thread/thread/279
>642a09050c7f2/a667a3122c21bdc2#a667a3122c21bdc2
>
> Basically a screw you kind of reply.

If some Debian developer wants to get sponsorized for his project, I think it 
would be more productive to write the list of requeriments and contact 
Branden Robinson and Google, instead of complaining.

Regards,

  Cesar

Re: ITP: cl-rfc2388 -- an implementation of RFC 2388 in Common Lisp

[Luca Capello]

Hello!

On Wed 25 May 2005 07:17 +0200, Peter Van Eynde wrote:
> * Package name: cl-rfc2388
>   Version : x.y.z

0.9

>   Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Janis Dzerins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> * URL : http://www.example.org/

http://common-lisp.net/project/rfc2388/

> * License : (GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT/X, etc.)

BSD

The only problem with this package is that the source contains the
rfc2388 text, which cannot be included in a free package. As the
rfc2388 text is already included in the doc-rfc-std-proposed package
(which is in not-free), IMO the cl-rfc2388 should suggest the
doc-rfc-std-proposed package.

BTW, the CVS source already contains a debian/ folder, as the author
accepted to let rfc2388 become a Debian native package :-)

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Every man must have a sex! MUST!!!

[Muriel]

Security - we offer more consumer guarantees than any other website
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Re: Debian Java in Sarge

[Michael Koch]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 08:59:30AM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> [Adam Heath]
> > I agree.  A java policy should talk about how java packages should
> > interact once installed.  But stay the hell away from how they are
> > built.
> 
> I disagree.  It should give recommodations on how they should be
> built, to make it easier for the java developers to maintain the java
> packages.  Consistency reduce the work maintaining packages, and using
> a common system for building java packages make it easier to improve
> all java build systems by doing a modification only once, in the build
> system.
> 
> But it should probably not be a requirement, to avoid endless flame
> wars with maintainers who fail to see the gain of standardizing the
> build system for java packages.

FULL ACK.


Michael
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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[David Nusinow]

On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 12:18:50AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Regarding your specific example, I know of no reason why Debian couldn't
> > use Ubuntu's X.org packages when Debian is ready to make the transition,
> > but in the end that will be the XSF's decision, not Ubuntu's.
> 
> There appears to be a bunch of work going on around this right now,
> without a ton of fanfare.  (Pretty much the ideal situation, as far as I'm
> concerned.  It's usually a good sign when matters get to the point that
> people are committing things rather than talking about what to commit.)

I'm working very hard to minimize the delta between the Ubuntu and Debian
packages in this particular case. This will be problematic so since there
are essentially two re-packaging efforts planned for the future, and they
are almost completely different. 

In a lot of ways, this particular codebase is a worst-case scenario, but
it's not dissimilar to the problem that started this thread: collision
between completely different efforts between Debian and Ubuntu packagers.
For something like wifi-radar this isn't a big problem, but for X.org this
is potentially a huge issue.

While I'm happy that Canonical has done the work on X.org and made it
available to Debian, Debian can not become beholden to Canonical for such
work in any way. If we do, we become like Fedora. The same goes for any
other Debian-derivative (spork?). I, for one, refuse to let that happen,
which is one reason why I'm working on minimizing that delta in every way I
can and hopefully I can get both the Ubuntu X folk(s) and Debian X folks
hacking on the exact same source tree. I can't play politics forever
though, and at a certain point there needs to be some more coherent
statement of policy (if just for practical purposes) than what we've seen
so far.

 - David Nusinow


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Re: Bug#311795: ITP: rast -- A full text search system

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 à 21:14 +0900, Taku YASUI a écrit :
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> * Package name: rast
>   Version : 0.1.1
>   Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> * URL : http://www.netlab.jp/rast/
> * License : GPL
>   Description : N-gram based full text search system library
> 
> Rast is N-gram based full text search system library.  it has
> following features.
> 
>   * N-gram based indexing; No dictionaries are needed
>   * Support many types of documents; e.g. HTML, MS Word
>   * Includes library for some programming languages
>   * Add text incrementally

Could you please explain what is N-gram and what is this package useful
for?
-- 
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Re: Bug#311795: ITP: rast -- A full text search system

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 à 21:14 +0900, Taku YASUI a écrit :
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> * Package name: rast
>   Version : 0.1.1
>   Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> * URL : http://www.netlab.jp/rast/
> * License : GPL
>   Description : N-gram based full text search system library
> 
> Rast is N-gram based full text search system library.  it has
> following features.
> 
>   * N-gram based indexing; No dictionaries are needed
>   * Support many types of documents; e.g. HTML, MS Word
>   * Includes library for some programming languages
>   * Add text incrementally

Could you please explain what is N-gram and what is this package useful
for?
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
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`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Bug#311795: ITP: rast -- A full text search system

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 à 21:14 +0900, Taku YASUI a écrit :
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> * Package name: rast
>   Version : 0.1.1
>   Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> * URL : http://www.netlab.jp/rast/
> * License : GPL
>   Description : N-gram based full text search system library
> 
> Rast is N-gram based full text search system library.  it has
> following features.
> 
>   * N-gram based indexing; No dictionaries are needed
>   * Support many types of documents; e.g. HTML, MS Word
>   * Includes library for some programming languages
>   * Add text incrementally

Could you please explain what is N-gram and what is this package useful
for?
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Ante Karamatić]

OK, here is idea/solution for problems with packaging.

All new Ubuntu packages should have ITP on Debian lists. For example, if
I package app that isn't in Debian, and I package it for Ubuntu, I will
fill ITP for that package on Debian list.

That package will or will not be accepted to Debian, but any other
Debian developer who would like to work on that package, will contact me
and we would cooperate.

Same package will enter Ubuntu and it would be safe. There would be no
posibility that same package will apear in Debian without my knowledge.

This way we would have one big "source repository" for both
distributions.

Any comments?

-- 
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http://master.grad.hr/~ivoks/|--|ICQ: 64631782
May, 15.  we're fixing the universe, it's not an easy duty!


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Dale C. Scheetz]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:25:01 -0400
Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> (To answer the thread leader, I consider Ubuntu to be more and more of a
> fork and less and less a derivative distribution. If Ubuntu doesn't
> start to re-converge with Debian significantly after sarge is released,
> and we end up with two sets of X.org packaging, etc, then I will give up
> and just consider it purely a fork.)
> 
>

>From the first CD I installed, I realized it was a fork...and a disapointing 
one at that. (Pretty desktop on live CD didn't install from installation CD,
but the fact that their archives only hold their limited package set, found
on the CDs, made it apparent that they were a separate distro, based on 
Debian but not necessarily compatible with Debian.)

Knoppix is much better about using Debian packages and adding configuration
integration of a much wider range of Debian packages. as well as installing
on hard drive ready to modify and upgrade. (Although these days I'm using
Bonzi to install Debian, with great success. The autoconfiguration of USB
is quite useful, almost as good as DLS{another Debian derivative})

However, the coolest thing I have seen that uses Debian is the NOKIA 770
Wi-Fi tablet available in September of this year. Their argument for using
Debian was that apt-get would keep the machine upgraded for life. Yes, their
"Internet Tablet 2005 sofware edition" is probably a fork, the implication
on Hack-a-Day is that other packages and applications can be added to this 
machine. Their own web site doesn't say a thing about Debian, but their 
developers site (maemo.org makes it clearer under "Building and installing 
Debian packages"). This could be a fun hack, and the solution to some
hardware problems I have been trying to resolve ;-)

Luck,

Dwarf


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Ante Karamati?]
> All new Ubuntu packages should have ITP on Debian lists. For
> example, if I package app that isn't in Debian, and I package it for
> Ubuntu, I will fill ITP for that package on Debian list.

This is not going to work for all packages, as some package
maintainers are not too happy about Debian, and would only like to
maintain packages in Ubuntu.  We need a procedure for this case as
well.


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New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Greeting lists,

Today Kevin Mark poitned out[0] that I should turn a brief outline I
gave[1] on how to customize Debian pacakges into a full blown HOWTO.  I
have done that and the result [2] is now available to the public.  I
would like to announce it in the hopes that new and experienced Debian
developers and users will review it and provide some feedback.  After a
week or so, I will probably submit it to some Debian-related wikis and
websites.  But, I first want to make sure that it is in reasonable
shape before I *really* present it to the world :-)

-Roberto

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2005/06/msg00362.html
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2005/06/msg00175.html
[2] http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr/?page=debcustomize
-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: Debian Java in Sarge

[sean finney]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 08:59:30AM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> I disagree.  It should give recommodations on how they should be
> built, to make it easier for the java developers to maintain the java
> packages.  Consistency reduce the work maintaining packages, and using
> a common system for building java packages make it easier to improve
> all java build systems by doing a modification only once, in the build
> system.

can you give an example of anywhere else in debian where developers are
forced to use a specific build tool/system for their packages?

instead of trying to force people to do things "your way", i would suggest
that you come up with an infrastructure for making these packages that
really is easier and consistant, and then say something like "packages
built with java must follow these guidelines.  we've made this easy
to do if you use these build tools".  i think you'll find most people
will gravitate towards doing so (debhelper is a good example of this),
and those who don't probably have a good reason (either because the tool
can't do what they want or maybe they've found a better way).


sean

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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Hi Petter,

Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 18:38 +0200 schrieb Petter Reinholdtsen:
> This is not going to work for all packages, as some package
> maintainers are not too happy about Debian, and would only like to
> maintain packages in Ubuntu.  We need a procedure for this case as
> well.

Do you have a particular case in mind?

Have a nice day,
 Daniel



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doctor

[Fabian]

Your medicine source:
http://yfoluwzgefjkxe60uiiyxgpwufhw.sheavemanjj.com/


arcsine

Re: Debian Java in Sarge

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Sean Finney]
> can you give an example of anywhere else in debian where developers
> are forced to use a specific build tool/system for their packages?

Hard to tell, I haven't spend time looking.  But I can give an example
of a person unable to discover that I didn't suggest forcing anyone to
do anything.  I formulated a 'recommend and not require' suggestion in
my mail.  What did you read?


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Hello Dale,

Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 11:29 -0400 schrieb Dale C. Scheetz:
> >From the first CD I installed, I realized it was a fork...and a disapointing 
> one at that. (Pretty desktop on live CD didn't install from installation CD,
> but the fact that their archives only hold their limited package set, found
> on the CDs, made it apparent that they were a separate distro, based on 
> Debian but not necessarily compatible with Debian.)

this is not quite true. The CD only holds packages from the "main"
component, but there are "Universe", "Multiverse" (the non-free section)
and "restricted" as well.

Apart from that, I really can't see this as an indication for a fork.

Have a nice day,
 Daniel




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Perl or Java project

[Joshua Jackson]

Where could I find out about projects that still need developers. I could
code in perl and java. Please tell me where I can read the resources
regarding to the available projects in debian.

Thxn in advance
-- 
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Re: Debian Java in Sarge

[sean finney]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 07:13:57PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> Hard to tell, I haven't spend time looking.  But I can give an example
> of a person unable to discover that I didn't suggest forcing anyone to
> do anything.  I formulated a 'recommend and not require' suggestion in
> my mail.  What did you read?

guess that's what i get for jumping into a conversation without reading
a bit further back.  i read part of a mail quoted in another email that
seemed to imply otherwise and guess i took that out of context.  my bad.


sean


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Bug#311986: ITP: scim-input-pad -- on-screen input pad IM engine module for SCIM

[Ming Hua]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Ming Hua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: scim-input-pad
  Version : 0.1.0
  Upstream Author : James Su <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.scim-im.org/
* License : GPL
  Description : on-screen input pad IM engine module for SCIM

SCIM (Smart Common Input Method) is an input method (IM) platform.

This package provides the on-screen input pad IM engine module for SCIM.
Using the input pad users can see a group of symbols and choose from
them as input.  The symbol groups included in this package are basic
symbols (technical symbols, punctuation symbols, etc.), Chinese numbers
and radicals, Japanese Katakana and Hiragana symbols, and special key
events (dead keys, compose keys, etc.).

For details about SCIM, please see the description of package scim.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 3.1
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.8-2-k7
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Dale C. Scheetz]

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:16:50 +0200
Daniel Holbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello Dale,
> 
> Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 11:29 -0400 schrieb Dale C. Scheetz:
> > >From the first CD I installed, I realized it was a fork...and a 
> > >disapointing 
> > one at that. (Pretty desktop on live CD didn't install from installation CD,
> > but the fact that their archives only hold their limited package set, found
> > on the CDs, made it apparent that they were a separate distro, based on 
> > Debian but not necessarily compatible with Debian.)
> 
> this is not quite true. The CD only holds packages from the "main"
> component, but there are "Universe", "Multiverse" (the non-free section)
> and "restricted" as well.
> 
When using apt-get on a system installed from the installation CD (not the live
CD) apt-get points to the Ubuntu archives, which only contain a very limited
subset of Debian's main archives. I had limited success in pointing apt at a 
real Debian archives and getting additional packages to install. This is why
I said it looked like a fork from the biginnig. This is a "desktop" distribution
with a specific philosphy that dictates looking at global configuration of
packages in a different way than the Debian developers may...

 

> Apart from that, I really can't see this as an indication for a fork.

Even as a fork, there are useful ideas to be gleaned from them, and their
open source policy seems to make that possible, dispite the technical 
problems...
> 

Luck,

Dwarf


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Christoph Wegscheider]

Roberto C. Sanchez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> would like to announce it in the hopes that new and experienced Debian
> developers and users will review it and provide some feedback.  After a
> [2] http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr/?page=debcustomize

"The official Debian packages are built by a buildd, also called build
daemon, which makes use of pbuilder to ensure that every package is
built in a clean environment."

IIRC I read 2 or 3 weeks ago on d-d, that this is not the case. As the
buildds keeps installed dependencies for performance reason and can't be
"used" to check for build-dependencies. Sorry I didn't have the link at
hands, but maybe someone competent can confirm/correct this.

Christoph


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Bug#311997: ITP: gaim-latex -- gaim plugin wich translate LaTeX code into image in conversation

[Martin Braure de Calignon]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Martin Braure de Calignon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

* Package name: gaim-latex
  Version : 0.3
  Upstream Author : Nicolas Schoonbroodt
* URL : http://sourceforge.net/projects/gaim-latex
* License : GPL
  Description : gaim plugin wich translate LaTeX code into image in 
conversation

 Provides the use of LaTeX code in conversation in gaim. The code is converted 
in image by tex2im script (imagemagick) and the image is sent to your contact.

- -- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (950, 'unstable'), (200, 'testing'), (25, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.11-1-686
Locale: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (charmap=ISO-8859-15)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCoegkcHEx8cor214RAl/eAJ994oHvvC7VO82CkTpuf4SdsIZCvgCbBlj8
NmDSgOGKG0JerwYCNEpG5VQ=
=zNQ4
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Bill Allombert]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 06:38:54PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> [Ante Karamati?]
> > All new Ubuntu packages should have ITP on Debian lists. For
> > example, if I package app that isn't in Debian, and I package it for
> > Ubuntu, I will fill ITP for that package on Debian list.
> 
> This is not going to work for all packages, as some package
> maintainers are not too happy about Debian, and would only like to
> maintain packages in Ubuntu.  We need a procedure for this case as
> well.

Should Ubuntu encourage such behaviour ?

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Imagine a large red swirl here.


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Hey Dale,

Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 12:33 -0400 schrieb Dale C. Scheetz:
> When using apt-get on a system installed from the installation CD (not the 
> live
> CD) apt-get points to the Ubuntu archives, which only contain a very limited
> subset of Debian's main archives. I had limited success in pointing apt at a 
> real Debian archives and getting additional packages to install. This is why
> I said it looked like a fork from the biginnig. This is a "desktop" 
> distribution
> with a specific philosphy that dictates looking at global configuration of
> packages in a different way than the Debian developers may...

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough: The Ubuntu main component is a
limited subset, where Canonical is willing to support packages for a
timespan of 18 months (3 releases).

Ubuntu Universe/Multiverse is a community maintained section, which has
to be enabled in /etc/apt/sources.lists. You were right with your
observation that Debian main != Ubuntu main, but that's only half of the
truth. ;-)

Have a nice day,
 Daniel



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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Bill Allombert]
> Should Ubuntu encourage such behaviour ?

Is it?  I doubt they do.

Not all package maintainers in Ubuntu are paid by Canonical, and thus
fairly out of control of the corporate Ubuntu policies.  Just as in
Debian, I guess, were several package maintainers demonstrate
questionable cooperation skills. :)


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Daniel Holbach]
> Do you have a particular case in mind?

I'm not going to provide examples, no.


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Hi Bill,

Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 11:47 -0500 schrieb Bill Allombert:
> > This is not going to work for all packages, as some package
> > maintainers are not too happy about Debian, and would only like to
> > maintain packages in Ubuntu.  We need a procedure for this case as
> > well.
> 
> Should Ubuntu encourage such behaviour ?

I have no idea, where Petter made up this opinion. 

Ok, there are a couple of maintainers who are not DDs, so they won't be
able to maintain them in both, Ubuntu an Debian, but I think everybody
is perfectly happy to group-maintain packages in both worlds.

Have a nice day,
 Daniel



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Re: Bug#311997: ITP: gaim-latex -- gaim plugin wich translate LaTeX code into image in conversation

[Florent Bayle]

Le Samedi 4 Juin 2005 19:43, Martin Braure de Calignon a écrit :
[...]
>  Provides the use of LaTeX code in conversation in gaim. The code is
> converted in image by tex2im script (imagemagick) and the image is sent to
> your contact.
[...]

Just a little mistake : according to the author of gaim-latex, the image is 
not sent to your contact, just the LaTeX code, and your contact have to had 
gaim-latex (or kopetex ?) to translate the LaTeX code in image.

-- 
Florent Bayle


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Mark Brown]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 08:14:45PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> [Daniel Holbach]
> > Do you have a particular case in mind?

> I'm not going to provide examples, no.

Would it be possible to provide some general description of the sorts of
problem they see?

-- 
"You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever."


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Hi Petter,

Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 20:14 +0200 schrieb Petter Reinholdtsen:
> [Daniel Holbach]
> > Do you have a particular case in mind?
> 
> I'm not going to provide examples, no.

I'm very unhappy, about your answers and this whole thread in general.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of anything.

But the atmosphere in the thread is tense and full of misunderstandings.
With every mail it becomes clearer that we're all miles away from
actually making plans and discussing concrete specifications of what's
to happen.

One thing I always loved about the Open Source world is, if there was a
problem (and no matter what type of it): it didn't exist for long:
people always found a way to make great things happen.

So can we try to get back to the topic? What are we precisely discussing
at the moment?

  * The handling of NEW packages and in which cases to file an ITP.
  * How to retrieve patches in the easiest way.
  * How to start group maintenance.

Maybe there are other issues, I missed in the thread. 

Can you believe it? Just those three bullet points? 

It should be easy to draft specs about exactly these issues. I'm aware
of the fact that it may take longer to implement them and even if we
regard all the corner cases, there will be people arguing, complaining
and bickering, but ... so what?

I was at the Ubuntu Conference in Sydney and one thing I loved
completely, was the way how we discussed specifications and how we
tackled problems.

Shouldn't it be possible to think of solutions in the same way? I can
feel that we all can take incredible benefit out of this, so let's go!
Let's make it happen! :)

Have a nice day,
 Daniel



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Re: Bug#311997: ITP: gaim-latex -- gaim plugin wich translate LaTeX code into image in conversation

[Martin Braure de Calignon]

Le samedi 04 juin 2005 à 20:18 +0200, Florent Bayle a écrit :
> Le Samedi 4 Juin 2005 19:43, Martin Braure de Calignon a écrit :
> [...]
> >  Provides the use of LaTeX code in conversation in gaim. The code is
> > converted in image by tex2im script (imagemagick) and the image is sent to
> > your contact.
> [...]
> 
> Just a little mistake : according to the author of gaim-latex, the image is 
> not sent to your contact, just the LaTeX code, and your contact have to had 
> gaim-latex (or kopetex ?) to translate the LaTeX code in image.
> 
Yes you're true, it's a misunderstood of me. I'll change it in few
hours.
Thank you very much :-)

--
Martin Braure de Calignon


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Daniel Holbach]
> Hi Petter,

Hi.

> But the atmosphere in the thread is tense and full of
> misunderstandings.  With every mail it becomes clearer that we're
> all miles away from actually making plans and discussing concrete
> specifications of what's to happen.

I'm not that pessimistic.  Perhaps I lack a clear understanding of the
current concensus.  I do not know.

> So can we try to get back to the topic?

Yes, lets do that.

> What are we precisely discussing at the moment?

I believe we are discussing how to keep the packages in Debian and
Ubuntu as synchronized as possible, to hopefully reduce the
maintainence cost and improve the package quality in Ubuntu, and
hopefully improve the package quality and reduce the maintenence cost
in Debian.

And more specificly, we are discussing how to make sure (new/not in
debian) packages in Ubuntu also make it into Debian.  I suspect we are
under the assumtion that packages are placed in Ubuntu because they
are useful, and thus would be useful in Debian as well.

>   * The handling of NEW packages and in which cases to file an ITP.
>   * How to retrieve patches in the easiest way.
>   * How to start group maintenance.
> 
> Maybe there are other issues, I missed in the thread. 
> 
> Can you believe it? Just those three bullet points? 

There is also the issue on how to handle lack of communication and
lack of interest on one side or the other of working together with the
other side, but I guess we could ignore that for now.

To start with your list.

 - Handling NEW packages (in Ubuntu, I guess, or do anyone want
   something changed in how Debian handle new packages?)

   I believe it would be best if Canonical encouraged the people
   maintaining packages in Ubuntu to also submit an RFP/ITP into
   Debian as well, and also encourage people to try to find a DD
   sponsor to upload the packages both into Debian and into Ubuntu.

 - Exchanging patches

   Not sure how to best handle this.  If Ubuntu accept the Debian
   packages as "upstream", all relevant patches should be submitted
   into Debian BTS, and followed up there to reduce the diff between
   the packages in Debian and Ubuntu.  This might be a bit work
   intense (it is/was for debian-edu at least), so it might not be the
   best way to spend the limited time available.

 - Group maintenance

   Good idea.  I suspect the ideal situation for packages available
   both in Debian and Ubuntu would be if there is a group consisting
   of both the Debian and Ubuntu package maintainers co-maintaining
   the package together.  But it is a bit hard to get this going, when
   I see efforts in Ubuntu (UbuntuGIS, UbuntuJava) where the effort
   start without first coordinating with the already existing and
   relevant Debian efforts (Debian GIS, Debian Java).  This seem to
   improve, but we are not there yet.  I'm not sure how we can improve
   this, as the priorities of the two efforts might be different, and
   the deadlines not aligned either.

I would be willing to co-maintain my packages with the maintainer in
Ubuntu, and hope more people in Debian would consider this as well.  I
also check out interesting Ubuntu packages at random times, and try to
get them included into Debian as well.  But it would be better if this
wasn't left to random people looking at random packages, but instead
was more organized and consistent.


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Re: notes on deckit WAP phone simulator

[Anonymous]

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2000/11/msg01345.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2000/11/msg01347.html


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 11:29:02AM -0400, Dale C. Scheetz wrote:

> >From the first CD I installed, I realized it was a fork...and a disapointing 
> one at that. (Pretty desktop on live CD didn't install from installation CD,

Can you explain what you mean by this statement about the CD?  Did the
installation fail?

> but the fact that their archives only hold their limited package set, found
> on the CDs, made it apparent that they were a separate distro, based on 
> Debian but not necessarily compatible with Debian.)

A few minutes' more exploration (a peek at /etc/apt/sources.list) would have
revealed that in fact everything you would expect to find is available in
the archives, though only a subset of it is presented by default.

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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 06:38:54PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:

> [Ante Karamati?]
> > All new Ubuntu packages should have ITP on Debian lists. For
> > example, if I package app that isn't in Debian, and I package it for
> > Ubuntu, I will fill ITP for that package on Debian list.
> 
> This is not going to work for all packages, as some package
> maintainers are not too happy about Debian

Is this judgement based on some experience you had with an Ubuntu developer?
I'd like to hear about it, because this is certainly not the common case,
and there is an unfortunate amount of myth and rumour on this subject.

> , and would only like to maintain packages in Ubuntu.  We need a procedure
> for this case as well.

As Ante pointed out, this is applicable regardless of the packages' presence
or maintainership in Debian, and was suggested as a way to improve
communication.

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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 08:13:35PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:

> [Bill Allombert]
> > Should Ubuntu encourage such behaviour ?
> 
> Is it?  I doubt they do.

Certainly not.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

> Not all package maintainers in Ubuntu are paid by Canonical, and thus
> fairly out of control of the corporate Ubuntu policies.

As a matter of fact, a minority of Ubuntu developers are employed by
Canonical.  The reality of how this works out in practice is sometimes not
obvious, especially to those who have not been involved with the Ubuntu
community first-hand, but in this case the distinction, and the policies of
Canonical Ltd., are entirely irrelevant.

The behavior of members of the Ubuntu community, regardless of their
affiliation, is governed by the Code of Conduct:

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct

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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Hi Petter,

thank you very much for that mail.

Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 21:01 +0200 schrieb Petter Reinholdtsen:
> And more specificly, we are discussing how to make sure (new/not in
> debian) packages in Ubuntu also make it into Debian.  I suspect we are
> under the assumtion that packages are placed in Ubuntu because they
> are useful, and thus would be useful in Debian as well.

Every package in Debian makes its way into Ubuntu - only if it should
collide with other ones, can't be build at all or isn't sensible at all,
it is removed. Those are very rare corner cases.

> There is also the issue on how to handle lack of communication and
> lack of interest on one side or the other of working together with the
> other side, but I guess we could ignore that for now.

Of course. I just tried to adress the "technical" issues first, because
they can more easily be pushed into specifications and give a framework,
which makes it easier to act.

>I believe it would be best if Canonical encouraged the people
>maintaining packages in Ubuntu to also submit an RFP/ITP into
>Debian as well, and also encourage people to try to find a DD
>sponsor to upload the packages both into Debian and into Ubuntu.

I will take this into the next MOTU Meeting [1], where the issues, ideas
and plans of the MOTUs (community maintainers) are discussed.
 
[1] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting


>Not sure how to best handle this.  If Ubuntu accept the Debian
>packages as "upstream", all relevant patches should be submitted
>into Debian BTS, and followed up there to reduce the diff between
>the packages in Debian and Ubuntu.  This might be a bit work
>intense (it is/was for debian-edu at least), so it might not be the
>best way to spend the limited time available.

This needs to be adressed in a broader forum. Everbody will have an
opinion on solutions like mass-bts-ing, mass-mailing or rss feeds. 


> 
>  - Group maintenance
> ...
>I'm not sure how we can improve
>this, as the priorities of the two efforts might be different, and
>the deadlines not aligned either.

I will adress this in the next MOTU meeting as well. If there's a new
team evolving (we're just 20 people yet), we will make sure this is on
debian-devel@ as well so we can get things going closely together.


> I would be willing to co-maintain my packages with the maintainer in
> Ubuntu, and hope more people in Debian would consider this as well.  I
> also check out interesting Ubuntu packages at random times, and try to
> get them included into Debian as well.  But it would be better if this
> wasn't left to random people looking at random packages, but instead
> was more organized and consistent.

Thanks for your confidence, this give me hope. As I pointed out: the
developer base is still quite small and there are (apart from some
examples) no "fixed maintainers" for packages, although everybody
respects the area of expertise of another one.

If we can make up processes and discuss specifics, we'll get there,
definitely.

Have a nice day,
 Daniel



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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Matt Zimmerman]
> Is this judgement based on some experience you had with an Ubuntu
> developer?

The observation (judgement is stretching it too far) is based on my
very limited experience with packages in Ubuntu which are/were missing
in Debian.

> I'd like to hear about it, because this is certainly not the common
> case, and there is an unfortunate amount of myth and rumour on this
> subject.

Oh, it is definitely not the common case.  My sample set is ~5
packages, and for most of them the maintainer of the Ubuntu package
were very interested in cooperation and co-maintenance.

My point is just that we should be aware of the border cases, and try
to find procedures to handle those as well.


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Re: Linux / Debian / Ubuntu

[Anonymous]

Could you point me at a RealPlayer for each and every platform Debian
supports?

No, but real player's core (Helix Player) is open source. The codecs are use 
restricted to personal use, and the codec source is available *for porting 
only*, under a a binding contract. (This they label a Eula, but you must 
print it, sign it, and send it in, so there is no doubt that it is legally 
binding.)


RealMedia is apparently even kind enough to offer the RealPlayer branded 
version of the Helix player under (GPL|| RPSL).


THE POINT:
Therefore it is theoreticly possible to obtain or make a realplayer branded 
player with full support for the RealVideo and RealAudio for any playform 
Debian is available on.


Note: RealPlayer 10 branded helix player + RealCodecs 10 != RealPlayer 10 
Linux.
The difference is that Realplayer 10 Linux includes a few additional 
components. (Flash, Mp3, etc.)


Summary:
Helix:
 (GPL||RPSL)
RealPlayer branded Helix Player:
  (GPL||RPSL) [TRADEMARK restrictions would apply]
RealPlayer's Codecs:
  Non-Libre, Gratis personal use [EULA]
RealPlayer Codec Sources:
  Non-Libre [Gratis binding EULA/NDA]

See https://helixcommunity.org/content/licenses





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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Andreas Tille]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Ante [iso-8859-2] Karamati? wrote:


All new Ubuntu packages should have ITP on Debian lists. For example, if
I package app that isn't in Debian, and I package it for Ubuntu, I will
fill ITP for that package on Debian list.

Great!
I would tell this idea quite natural and I would love if you would do
so.  I guess Ubuntu will have reasons to package software for a wider
user base and thus it should be no problem to find a sponsor.


That package will or will not be accepted to Debian, but any other
Debian developer who would like to work on that package, will contact me
and we would cooperate.

Thank you very much for this suggestion.


Same package will enter Ubuntu and it would be safe. There would be no
posibility that same package will apear in Debian without my knowledge.

This way we would have one big "source repository" for both
distributions.

Any comments?

Go for it

  Andreas.

--
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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Andreas Tille]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Dale C. Scheetz wrote:


Knoppix is much better about using Debian packages and adding configuration
integration of a much wider range of Debian packages.

Sure.  Knoppix is basically builded by a single person.
Didn't I said that just using what Debian provides is quite effective?

Kind regards

   Andreas.

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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Andreas Tille]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Daniel Holbach wrote:


Ok, there are a couple of maintainers who are not DDs, so they won't be
able to maintain them in both, Ubuntu an Debian, but I think everybody
is perfectly happy to group-maintain packages in both worlds.

It might be not very hard to find a sponsor for a good and useful
package so I see no problem to maintain a package in both.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

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Re: Debian Java in Sarge

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 à 18:41 -0500, Adam Heath a écrit :
> > I agree.  A java policy should talk about how java packages should interact
> > once installed.  But stay the hell away from how they are built.
> 
> As an example, debhelper, while being very useful for maintainers, is not
> mandated.

That doesn't make not using it less stupid. The few times I saw a
package not using debhelper, it was broken in some way.
-- 
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  `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Andreas Tille]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Daniel Holbach wrote:


But the atmosphere in the thread is tense and full of misunderstandings.

You are right here and I love if we could solve this.


With every mail it becomes clearer that we're all miles away from
actually making plans and discussing concrete specifications of what's
to happen.

I'll try to come back to this.


So can we try to get back to the topic? What are we precisely discussing
at the moment?

I'll try the answers of my point of view. which is:

  The most effective way to derive a distribution with low effort is
  to keep the diff small.


 * The handling of NEW packages and in which cases to file an ITP.

File an ITP / RFP for any package you want to see in *your* distribution.
(this would probably lead to group maintainance or at least sponsoring which
 is in principle also a group maintainance, because at least four eyes are
 looking in the case the Ubuntu maintainer is no Debian developer)


 * How to retrieve patches in the easiest way.

In Debian we have a defined way to provide patches: The BTS.


 * How to start group maintenance.

Easy: The maintainers should just start talking about their packages in
private or "blog" common problems in BTS.

Again: This is *my* point of view for most effective work.  It seems to work
in several cases wuite fine.  In some case it is an oversimplification of
the problem but a discussion in a common list would help drastically.

If somebody thinks the way I described is not optimal it is fine for me
and I have no trouble with it.  If we can not accomplis the things I
described above for the majority of packages I would consider Ubuntu
mor as a fork than a derivative.  This is absolutely not problem for
me, but it would be less effective than it could be - but I might be
wrong.


Maybe there are other issues, I missed in the thread.

Can you believe it? Just those three bullet points?

I think you reduced the thread to the basic points, yes.


I was at the Ubuntu Conference in Sydney and one thing I loved
completely, was the way how we discussed specifications and how we
tackled problems.

So you had just statements to the bullets above? Which are these?


Shouldn't it be possible to think of solutions in the same way? I can
feel that we all can take incredible benefit out of this, so let's go!
Let's make it happen! :)

Thanks for the clear words

 Andreas.

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Re: Perl or Java project

[Jaldhar H. Vyas]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Joshua Jackson wrote:


Where could I find out about projects that still need developers. I could
code in perl and java. Please tell me where I can read the resources
regarding to the available projects in debian.



Please take a look at http://webmin.alioth.debian.org/ particularly the 
todo list and the open bugs.  webmin is almost entirely perl.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Am Samstag, den 04.06.2005, 23:50 +0200 schrieb Andreas Tille:
> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Daniel Holbach wrote:
> 
> > But the atmosphere in the thread is tense and full of misunderstandings.
> You are right here and I love if we could solve this.

Nice you say that. :)


> > I was at the Ubuntu Conference in Sydney and one thing I loved
> > completely, was the way how we discussed specifications and how we
> > tackled problems.
> So you had just statements to the bullets above? Which are these?

I don't quite understand your question. If you referred to the
conference at Sydney, we discussed quite a lot of issues and ideas
there, for full coverage have a look at http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com

If you rather referred to the bullet points, I clarified my statements
to those on: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/06/msg00264.html

Thanks for your mail.

Have a nice day,
 Daniel




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Re: Debian Java in Sarge

[Adam Heath]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Josselin Mouette wrote:

> Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 à 18:41 -0500, Adam Heath a écrit :
> > > I agree.  A java policy should talk about how java packages should 
> > > interact
> > > once installed.  But stay the hell away from how they are built.
> >
> > As an example, debhelper, while being very useful for maintainers, is not
> > mandated.
>
> That doesn't make not using it less stupid. The few times I saw a
> package not using debhelper, it was broken in some way.

Of course.  That doesn't mean it should be mandated.

Re: Bug#311997: ITP: gaim-latex -- gaim plugin wich translate LaTeX code into image in conversation

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 07:43:00PM +0200, Martin Braure de Calignon wrote:
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
> Owner: Martin Braure de Calignon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> * Package name: gaim-latex
>   Version : 0.3
>   Upstream Author : Nicolas Schoonbroodt
> * URL : http://sourceforge.net/projects/gaim-latex
> * License : GPL
>   Description : gaim plugin wich translate LaTeX code into image in 
> conversation
> 
>  Provides the use of LaTeX code in conversation in gaim. The code is 
> converted in image by tex2im script (imagemagick) and the image is sent to 
> your contact.
> 
This totally rocks!  Please get this in soon.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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attention! hidden college camera Ernie

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wrathful you burgess me hay you franciscan me shasta you installation me 


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Re: Perl or Java project

[Jochen Schulz]

Joshua Jackson:
>
> Where could I find out about projects that still need developers. I could
> code in perl and java. Please tell me where I can read the resources
> regarding to the available projects in debian.

Aside from Debian, you could browse the Sourceforge.net project list
sorted by programming language and look for something you are interested
in:
http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=160

There is also a "Help wanted" section at http://sourceforge.net/people/
where you can directly find projects seeking help. A lot of Debian's
packages are hosted upstream at Sourceforge, so you would help Debian,
too.

J.
-- 
If I could travel through time I would go back to yesterday and
apologise.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Kevin Mark]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 12:56:33PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Greeting lists,
> 
> Today Kevin Mark poitned out[0] that I should turn a brief outline I
> gave[1] on how to customize Debian pacakges into a full blown HOWTO.  I
> have done that and the result [2] is now available to the public.  I
> would like to announce it in the hopes that new and experienced Debian
> developers and users will review it and provide some feedback.  After a
> week or so, I will probably submit it to some Debian-related wikis and
> websites.  But, I first want to make sure that it is in reasonable
> shape before I *really* present it to the world :-)
> 
> -Roberto
Hi Roberto,
I read it and it seems great! Haven't had a change to build anything yet
but I'm sure it will help me when I do. a minor typo, search for
'since'. As someone commented, I believe pbuilder does not clean the
chroot. for slow archs like arm and m68k, it would be inefficient to
rebuild all the dependencies for building KDE on arm after every change,
as an example.  And I dont think someone making a personal packages
would want to waste the time to clean it.  Keep up the great work,
you'll be a DD before Etch (at least I hope so) is released!  
Cheers,
Kev
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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Russ Allbery]

Roberto C Sanchez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Today Kevin Mark poitned out[0] that I should turn a brief outline I
> gave[1] on how to customize Debian pacakges into a full blown HOWTO.  I
> have done that and the result [2] is now available to the public.  I
> would like to announce it in the hopes that new and experienced Debian
> developers and users will review it and provide some feedback.  After a
> week or so, I will probably submit it to some Debian-related wikis and
> websites.  But, I first want to make sure that it is in reasonable shape
> before I *really* present it to the world :-)

> [2] http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr/?page=debcustomize

Eep, please don't tell people to give themselves full privileges with sudo
unless they know what they're doing.  The sudo configuration here is just
to run pbuilder, right?  If so, just recommend something like:

bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/pbuilder
bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-satisfydepends

This is sufficient in my experience.

Also, note that your sample pbuilder script looks like it was miswrapped;
the script is showing up on the same line as the #!/bin/sh line.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Russ Allbery]

Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I read it and it seems great! Haven't had a change to build anything yet
> but I'm sure it will help me when I do. a minor typo, search for
> 'since'. As someone commented, I believe pbuilder does not clean the
> chroot.

pbuilder does always clean the chroot.  buildd doesn't always, but it does
try to do so (it just doesn't care if it fails).

> for slow archs like arm and m68k, it would be inefficient to rebuild all
> the dependencies for building KDE on arm after every change, as an
> example.

The build logs seem to indicate that buildd is generally being that
inefficient, unless I'm misreading something.

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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Jeroen van Wolffelaar]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 05:58:18PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C Sanchez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Today Kevin Mark poitned out[0] that I should turn a brief outline I
> > gave[1] on how to customize Debian pacakges into a full blown HOWTO.  I
> > have done that and the result [2] is now available to the public.  I
> > would like to announce it in the hopes that new and experienced Debian
> > developers and users will review it and provide some feedback.  After a
> > week or so, I will probably submit it to some Debian-related wikis and
> > websites.  But, I first want to make sure that it is in reasonable shape
> > before I *really* present it to the world :-)
> 
> > [2] http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr/?page=debcustomize
> 
> Eep, please don't tell people to give themselves full privileges with sudo
> unless they know what they're doing.  The sudo configuration here is just
> to run pbuilder, right?  If so, just recommend something like:
> 
> bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/pbuilder
> bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-satisfydepends
> 
> This is sufficient in my experience.

It won't provide you with any additional security though, so it will
only give a false sense of security. If you can run pbuilder with any
argument, you can specify an arbitrary configfile, and that way have any
arbitrary command run as root. Even if it's only in the chroot, which I
didn't check right now, as root in a chroot you can break out and be
root on the host system.

--Jeroen

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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 09:24:54PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:

> [Matt Zimmerman]
> > Is this judgement based on some experience you had with an Ubuntu
> > developer?
> 
> The observation (judgement is stretching it too far) is based on my
> very limited experience with packages in Ubuntu which are/were missing
> in Debian.
>
> > I'd like to hear about it, because this is certainly not the common
> > case, and there is an unfortunate amount of myth and rumour on this
> > subject.
> 
> Oh, it is definitely not the common case.  My sample set is ~5
> packages, and for most of them the maintainer of the Ubuntu package
> were very interested in cooperation and co-maintenance.

That's the response I'd expect from all of them, so if you could fill me in
on the details of the situations where this was *not* the case, please let
me know (privately).

> My point is just that we should be aware of the border cases, and try
> to find procedures to handle those as well.

As always, we should be equipped to cope with border cases if we encounter
them, but in this particular scenario, there's no reason for them to exist.

-- 
 - mdz


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need help to solve celestia bug#303860

[Mathias Weyland]

Hi

I'm trying to solve bug #303860 but I need some help. The problem is that
the configure script errors on sparc because it can't find the KDE
libraries. All other architechtures build fine.

linda complained that the libtool files were pretty old, so my sponsor
suggested to update libtool and pointed me to [1]. Unfortunately, the result
after the update is just the same. configure is not able to find the KDE
libs. 

I've asked several people for help now, but even together we weren't able to
track the problem down.

Best regards
Mathias Weyland

[1] http://people.debian.org/~keybuk/libtool-updating.html


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Re: Debian Java in Sarge

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:49:17 +0200, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 à 18:41 -0500, Adam Heath a écrit :
>> > I agree.  A java policy should talk about how java packages
>> > should interact once installed.  But stay the hell away from how
>> > they are built.
>> 
>> As an example, debhelper, while being very useful for maintainers,
>> is not mandated.

> That doesn't make not using it less stupid.

Right. We can't possible build Debian packages without
 crutches, hence not using said crutches is stupid.  Since, you know,
 building packages is really really rocket science.

> The few times I saw a package not using debhelper, it was broken in
> some way.

Ooh. Generalizations. Gotta love 'em. Well, none of my
 40-or-so packages use debhelper. This includes stuff like make and
 flex, which are not exactly obscure and unknown packages. If these
 are broken in someway, and people know about them, I would appreciate
 bug reports.

If you want to know which packages to look for, here are the
 links: http://arch.debian.org/arch/private/srivasta/

manoj
-- 
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alive. Thor Heyerdahl
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Russ Allbery]

Jeroen van Wolffelaar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 05:58:18PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> Eep, please don't tell people to give themselves full privileges with
>> sudo unless they know what they're doing.  The sudo configuration here
>> is just to run pbuilder, right?  If so, just recommend something like:
>> 
>> bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/pbuilder
>> bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-satisfydepends
>> 
>> This is sufficient in my experience.

> It won't provide you with any additional security though, so it will
> only give a false sense of security. If you can run pbuilder with any
> argument, you can specify an arbitrary configfile, and that way have any
> arbitrary command run as root. Even if it's only in the chroot, which I
> didn't check right now, as root in a chroot you can break out and be
> root on the host system.

Hm, yes, good point.  I would still argue for listing the specific
commands just for general sudo sanity, but the NOPASSWD is probably a bad
idea.  I hadn't thought that all the way through.

Given that, it's worth a big note on the page that configuring things this
way gives that account full root access, meaning that if someone breaks
into it, they also have root.  That may not be obvious to someone who
hasn't done this before.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 08:53:06PM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
> Hi Roberto,
> I read it and it seems great! Haven't had a change to build anything yet
> but I'm sure it will help me when I do. a minor typo, search for
> 'since'. As someone commented, I believe pbuilder does not clean the
> chroot. for slow archs like arm and m68k, it would be inefficient to
> rebuild all the dependencies for building KDE on arm after every change,
> as an example.  And I dont think someone making a personal packages
> would want to waste the time to clean it.  Keep up the great work,
> you'll be a DD before Etch (at least I hope so) is released!  
> Cheers,
> Kev

Thanks for the feedback. Someone cleared it up for me in IRC in
#debian-devel.  I have updated the HOWTO.

As far as for building personal packages, you are right.  But, as the
default pbuilder behavior is to wipe out the temporary chroot after
every session, that should work for most people.  I haven't read far
enough into the docs to find out how to get it preserve the installed
packages, but that is because I like being able to build in a clean
environment every time and don't have an inclination to change it.  But,
your point is taken.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Adeodato Simó]

* Christoph Wegscheider [Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:37:46 +0200]:

> "The official Debian packages are built by a buildd, also called build
> daemon, which makes use of pbuilder to ensure that every package is
  ^^^
  That bit is wrong, buildd/buildds use 'sbuild'.
> built in a clean environment."


-- 
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EM: asp16 [ykwim] alu.ua.es | PK: DA6AE621
 
Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the
nastiest of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all.
-- John Maynard Keynes


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 05:58:18PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C Sanchez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Today Kevin Mark poitned out[0] that I should turn a brief outline I
> > gave[1] on how to customize Debian pacakges into a full blown HOWTO.  I
> > have done that and the result [2] is now available to the public.  I
> > would like to announce it in the hopes that new and experienced Debian
> > developers and users will review it and provide some feedback.  After a
> > week or so, I will probably submit it to some Debian-related wikis and
> > websites.  But, I first want to make sure that it is in reasonable shape
> > before I *really* present it to the world :-)
> 
> > [2] http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr/?page=debcustomize
> 
> Eep, please don't tell people to give themselves full privileges with sudo
> unless they know what they're doing.  The sudo configuration here is just
> to run pbuilder, right?  If so, just recommend something like:
> 
> bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/pbuilder
> bob ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-satisfydepends
> 
> This is sufficient in my experience.
OK.  Done.

> 
> Also, note that your sample pbuilder script looks like it was miswrapped;
> the script is showing up on the same line as the #!/bin/sh line.
> 
Good call.  I missed a  at the end of the line.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2005 at 04:32:39AM +0200, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> * Christoph Wegscheider [Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:37:46 +0200]:
> 
> > "The official Debian packages are built by a buildd, also called build
> > daemon, which makes use of pbuilder to ensure that every package is
>   ^^^
>   That bit is wrong, buildd/buildds use 'sbuild'.
> > built in a clean environment."

OK.  Thanks.  Updated:

"The official Debian packages are built by a buildd, also called build
daemon, which make use of sbuild (a package similar in function to
pbuilder) to ensure that every package is built in a clean environment
(note: some slower architectures do not actually clean after every
package build, but the concept is the same)."

-Roberto

-- 
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kernel security bug #307900

[Brian May]

Hello,

Whats the deal with bug #307900?

As far as I can tell from reading the bug report, the bug has not been
fixed in sarge, will not be fixed for the release, but the bug has
been closed.

Have we come to the point where making a release is more important
then fixing known security bugs?

Does this mean people who want secure pre-compiled kernels have to
resort to unstable until the issue is fixed?
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Adeodato Simó]

* Petter Reinholdtsen [Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:01:58 +0200]:
> [Daniel Holbach]

  Hello Petter, Daniel, let me pop in. It's my intention to be
  constructive.

> I believe we are discussing how to keep the packages in Debian and
> Ubuntu as synchronized as possible,

  Specifically, packages in universe.

>and also encourage people to try to find a DD
>sponsor to upload the packages both into Debian and into Ubuntu.

  This will work great if the person has a strong interest both in
  Debian and in Ubuntu. I have very limited knowledge of the MOTU
  effort, but I think it is increasingly gaining collaborators that do
  not have a Debian background, and who start in the packaging world
  directly via Ubuntu. For them, finding a Debian sponsor and uploading
  to our archive may be: (a) completely uninteresting, (b) a painful
  experience. Plus it may not be the ideal situation for Debian either,
  since uploading a package should imply that bug reports will be taken
  care of, and other Debian specific bits.

  For these cases, I believe a co-maintainership scenario would be
  really best (as Peter mentioned under "Group maintenance"): a Debian
  person and an Ubuntu person work together, each taking care of the
  issues specific to their distribution (e.g. bugs), but on the
  packaging side they work as closely as possible: common VCS repository
  and whatever.

  But, alas, there will not always be an interested DD for each new
  package that Ubuntu/universe gets, and the difficulty to find a
  sponsor, specially for non-experienced packagers, doesn't help here
  either (correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that getting a sponsored
  upload to universe happens faster and more easily than a sponsored
  upload to sid).

  For that reason, it could make sanse to keep a list of packages that
  exist in Ubuntu but not in Debian. This could be a Wiki page, or
  (perhaps even makes more sense) in the RFP/ITP itself, as in (please
  give feedback on this):

- Ubuntu packagers are encouraged to file a RFP/ITP bug against wnnp
  on bugs.debian.org for each new package they upload

- an ITP is filed if they intend to search a for a Debian sponsor
  and maintain the Debian package themselves, otherwise a RFP is
  submitted

- these ITPs and RFPs carry somewhere in the subject the "[Ubuntu]" (*)
  string, so that the set of packages in Ubuntu and not in Debian
  can be easily found.

  (*) Or a generic label could be used, e.g. "[from-derived-dist]".


  Cheers,

-- 
Adeodato Simó
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-- Daniel S. Greenberg


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Re: New Debian Package Customization HOWTO

[Bernd Eckenfels]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you wrote:
> "The official Debian packages are built by a buildd, also called build
> daemon, which make use of sbuild (a package similar in function to
> pbuilder) to ensure that every package is built in a clean environment
> (note: some slower architectures do not actually clean after every
> package build, but the concept is the same)."

Which is not true for binary uploads (especially on i386). Those are
unfortunatelly official packages without rebuilding and without a clean
environment.

Gruss
Bernd


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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

[Daniel Holbach]

Hey Adeodato,

Am Sonntag, den 05.06.2005, 04:29 +0200 schrieb Adeodato Simó:
>   but on the
>   packaging side they work as closely as possible: common VCS repository
>   and whatever.

This sounds really cool.


>   specially for non-experienced packagers, doesn't help here
>   either (correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that getting a sponsored
>   upload to universe happens faster and more easily than a sponsored
>   upload to sid).

We get those people there. Our NEW packages policy states that every
completely new package has to be reviewed by at least 3 maintainers or
MOTUs. The packages in question are in a pretty good state and the MOTU
hopefuls work incredibly hard to get into it.


> - an ITP is filed if they intend to search a for a Debian sponsor
>   and maintain the Debian package themselves, otherwise a RFP is
>   submitted

To be honest, I wasn't that familiar with the Debian administrative
devices, but if these measures help in any way, I will discuss it in the
MOTUMeeting ( http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting ).


>   (*) Or a generic label could be used, e.g. "[from-derived-dist]".

Yeah, why not.

Have a nice day,
 Daniel



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