Re: mplayer, the time has come

[A Mennucc]

Ken Bloom wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:46:38 +0100, A Mennucc wrote:
 

There have been two main problems keeping mplayer out of Debian: licenses
and copyrights.
Licenses:
the upstream code contains some code that is protected by (more or less)
actively enforced licenses: DeCSS code to decode encrypted dvd;
ffmpeg and OpenDivx code to en/decode MPEG4.
Solution:
the DeCSS  is deleted from the package proposed for Debian
   

What functionality do we lose by doing this?
 

my packaging of mplayer will play DVDs using libdvdread3 (exactly as 
xine does)

the DeCSS code inside mplayer is (considered by the upstream authors to 
be) more optimized and faster ; but including it is troublesome, so the 
upstream mplayer allows for the deletion of it and the fallback on 
libdvdread3

a.
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Re: mplayer, the time has come

[A Mennucc]

MJ Ray wrote:

  Andrea Mennucc wrote:
  
  
I have uploaded a new version of the 'mplayer' package for Debian,
namely version 1.0pre6-1

  
  
I have reviewed this package, but I've not tried building it.
Here are my first comments, split under your headings.

  
  
--- HISTORY and CURRENT STATUS=20

  
  
The README.Debian refers to diffs on a site tonelli.sns.it but
I couldn't find them.

Would running the cvs-changelog and storing the output help to
comply with the letter as well as spirit of the GPL?

debianizer - isn't there a debian/rules way to do this now?

  

no way at all

suppose that I do this:
$ tar xjf MPlayer-1.0pre6.tar.bz2
$ mv MPlayer-1.0pre6  mplayer-1.0pre6
$ tar czf mplayer_1.0pre6.orig.tar.gz

at this point I am dead: the file mplayer_1.0pre6.orig.tar.gz will
contain DeCSS code, and nothing in debian/rules can delete this code
from mplayer_1.0pre6.orig.tar.gz


  libmpcodecs - missing copyright or are these all but one
mplayer creations?

  

they are mplayer creations (at the best of my knowledge)

  TOOLS - all of this is deleted in response to a reply about
one file, or do they really intend them all to be non-free?

  

when I looked in it 2 years ago, I saw that many files did not have
proper copyright statements in them. Since I am not packaging anything
from TOOLS, I took the radical step to delete them

  debian/scripts/win32codecs.sh - does this depend on non-free
software?

  

nope

it will download and install codecs that are non-free; but it is the
user choice (and responsibility) to do that. This is no different than
what libdvdread3 proposed wrt decss librari

  
  
  
--- POPULAR SUPPORT

  
  
While it's nice to see that developers are so keen for mplayer
to be worked on, I hope that someone is directing them towards
the historical record and the work which still needs to be done.
I only saw it happen in one of the cited threads.

I think that explaining this to everyone is one of the main
challenges for the mplayer package maintainers and you should add
a bit more about it to README.Debian, mentioning investigation_0.90
(does that get included in the /usr/share/doc?)

  

investigation_0.90 is outdated: after 0.90 the upstream authors did
their own investigation and prepared the 'Copyright' file

  
  
--- HISTORY

  
  
Is it really necessary to fan dead flames by calling them such
in the README.Debian? Let bygones be bygones?

  

you sure are right

a.

Re: mplayer, the time has come

[A Mennucc]

Henning Makholm wrote:

  Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A Mennucc)

  
  
Solution:
the DeCSS  is deleted from the package proposed for Debian 
(for this reason, I upload mplayer as a native package); 

  
  
That is not a valid reason to pretend it is a native package. The
correct thing to do is to create a new .orig.tar.gz with the offending
files removed from it, but keep the rest of the .orig.tar.gz
unchanged. Debian changes and package infrastructure should still go
in a .diff.gz, and the package version should consist of an upstream
version with a separate Debian revision.

  

I object to this 

a file   mplayerorig.tar.gz  is, as the name says, the original
distributed source

distributing my modified tar.gz disguising it as the upstream original
one would be cause of confusion

a.

Re: First line in /etc/hosts

[GOMBAS Gabor]

On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 11:21:09AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:

> Every machine with more than one interface has at least two hostnames:
> localhost on network 127 and something else on the external networks.

Nitpicking: every machine have exactly one hostname, that is contained
in /proc/sys/kernel/hostname. The host _may_ have one or more network
interfaces, every network interface _may_ have one or more addresses,
and those addresses _may_ resolve to domain names (which are also called
hostnames, but are completely independent from
/proc/sys/kernel/hostname).

> I think there are two problems here:  some packages make assumptions about
> *the* IP number and/or *the* hostname, and /etc/hosts gets misconfigured
> either by buggy software or the admin.

Well, there is a quite sensible default for desktop machines with just
one physical network interface. You just have to realize that this may
not work for an increasing number of machines (think about laptops with
both a wireless and a TP interface, connected to two different
DHCP-managed networks at the same time).

The biggest mistake people are used to make is thinking that the
contents of /proc/sys/kernel/hostname has _anything_ to do with any
address on any network interface, and just blindly use the output of
`hostname`.

Gabor

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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[David Schmitt]

Hi Kev, list!

On Tuesday 15 February 2005 08:27, Kevin Mark wrote:
> after my initial work on a diagram, and the comments and the work of
> madduck, ÂI had some time to redo my diagram to produce a totally new
> concept. any comment appreciated.

Really nice and clean. Great to see such fundamental processes documented 
properly! Some things though, perhaps someone can help me out here:

* buildd: there is more than one of them and I always thought the results are 
checked (and signed) manually by the buildd admins?

* propagation from experimental to unstable: I always thought that required a 
re-upload?

* "testing packages propagate to stable" is perhaps better called "release: 
testing becomes new-stable"?

Regards, David

Re: mplayer, the time has come

[Joshua Kwan]

A Mennucc wrote:
I object to this
a file   mplayerorig.tar.gz  is, as the name says, the original
distributed source
distributing my modified tar.gz disguising it as the upstream original
one would be cause of confusion
All of the kernel-source packages that need it have an orig.tar.gz
without non-free bits. Look at the 'prune' target in kernel-source-2.6.8
for example.
It's just as wrong to make it Debian native as it is to say it's an
"upstream original" that in reality lacks some non-free bits. And in
practice, the latter is the lesser of two evils.
--
Joshua Kwan


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Re: Request for Help: apt 0.6

[Martin Schulze]

martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.02.14.1851 +0100]:
> > We need help by competent developers who work on apt 0.6 with the goal
> > to get it supported properly and eventually enter sid and sarge.
> 
> Thank you, Joey!
> 
> For the record, I am too strung up right now to be any use in
> coordinating this. However, I will help out.

Thanks.

> >  - take into account that the archive key is rotated yearly
> 
> Why? What argument is there against a per-release key, including
> keys for security, testing, unstable, and experimental? It would
> certainly make things a little easier...

See what I wrote in the line above the one you quoted:

|  - design and discuss this with the release team

I didn't make this decision.  It has been common practice on the
Debian archive for a number of years though.

There are pros and cons for using a yearly key and a key that lasts
for an entire release.  However,

 - if anything should be changed from the current situation, the
   ftpmaster (and release team) need to be involved and

 - if not a solution needs to be established to distribute the key
   other than by aj sending a mail to debian-devel with the location
   of the new key.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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Re: mplayer, the time has come

[Frank Küster]

A Mennucc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[please, please repair your quoting mechanism. Done that for you in this mail].

> Henning Makholm wrote:
>
>>  That is not a valid reason to pretend it is a native package. The
>>  correct thing to do is to create a new .orig.tar.gz with the offending
>>  files removed from it, but keep the rest of the .orig.tar.gz
>>  unchanged. Debian changes and package infrastructure should still go
>>  in a .diff.gz, and the package version should consist of an upstream
>>  version with a separate Debian revision.
>
> I object to this
>
> a file   mplayerorig.tar.gz  is, as the name says, the original
> distributed source

No, it isn't there are lots of packages that have removed non-free files
from their orig.tar.gz files that way. There might even be packages for
which no upstream archive in tar.gz form exists. Please see 

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=278524

and the discussions referenced therein. I wrote this bug report in order
to enforce a policy that orig.tar.gz files *should* be pristine as
possible. But the fact that this is necessary clearly shows that it is
not a requirement.

> distributing my modified tar.gz disguising it as the upstream original one
> would be cause of confusion

That's why you have to document this in debian/README.Debian or
debian/README.Debian-source. But an orig.gar.gz file is just one
technical part of a Debian source package, it doesn's say anything about
pristine or repackaged.

Regards, Frank
-- 
Frank Küster
Inst. f. Biochemie der Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer

Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[martin f krafft]

Hi Kevin,

Great work! I am glad to see you got down with dia; I love that
tool. Here are some comments:

a. I am not sure what the "process realm" is.
b. Developers do not tag bugs, they sign packages. Is that what you
   meant? Also, note that at the moment, most only sign source
   packages and binary uploads, not the binary packages themselves.
c. Upstream is not really a repository, is it?
d. I am missing the link between buildd and unstable. They get the
   orig.tar.gz from unstable for any uploads in incoming that do
   not include the tarball.
e. I think it's "M. Schulze", not Shultze.
f. Sven's name has an Umlaut; here, to cut-n-paste: Müller
g. "users processes" should be "users' processes", though I think
   you may want to use another word. Like plain "users" or "user
   systems" may be better.
h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to
   testing.
i. You use both meanings of "priority" (changelog and control)
   without making it clear which one is meant.
j. "updates propagate", not "updates propagates". I know you are
   talking about the collection, but it sounds weird.

That's it for now.

To get our graphs onto www.debian.org, I assume we file bugs against
that pseudo-package. Let me know when you are ready, then we can
submit one bug report together.

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 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
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Re: Request for Help: apt 0.6

[Martin Schulze]

Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Henrique de Moraes Holschuh:
> > You still need to deal with key revocation and a new key being needed,
> > anyway.  Yearly changes will not make it more difficult, it will make sure
> > those codepaths are tested (and used at least once an year).

> I can understand that in an ideal world, there would be a master key
> stored off-line which would be used to sign (and revoke) the release
> keys.  In case of a compromise, the master key can be used to
> introduce a new release key (without intervention by the system
> administrator).
> 
> But I doubt this is really necessary.  If the release key is
> compromised, a DSA would have to be released anyway.  This advisory
> would include the necessary steps to remove the compromised key from
> the system.  Do we really need to automate this?
> 
> You could even argue that the scheme without a master key is more
> secure because the number of trusted parties is smaller, and no one
> can introduce a new release key in a covert manner.  It boils down to
> what we are trying to secure.  AFAICS, the main risks are network
> layer attacks on the user and mirror breaches.  Easy recovery from a
> compromised archive infrastructure shouldn't be a top priority, and it
> might well be impossible if the attack was successful (the "single
> point of ownership" problem).

Even though this will probably work well on a small scale, it won't on
a large scale.  Just think about the installations of 500 or 1000
Debian machines that also have security support.  This is not
hypothetical.  These installations do exist.  You don't want to
install a new key manually on them.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.


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Re: mplayer, the time has come

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, A Mennucc wrote:
> Henning Makholm wrote:
> >Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A Mennucc)
> >That is not a valid reason to pretend it is a native package. The
> >
> I object to this
> 
> a file   mplayerorig.tar.gz  is, as the name says, the original 
> distributed source

Stop with the weed.  We have been removing non-free stuff from .orig tarbals
since ever.

> distributing my modified tar.gz disguising it as the upstream original 
> one would be cause of confusion

That's what the debian/copyright file is for.  Or a debian/README.Source,
and so on.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Request for Help: apt 0.6

[Florian Weimer]

* Martin Schulze:

> Even though this will probably work well on a small scale, it won't on
> a large scale.  Just think about the installations of 500 or 1000
> Debian machines that also have security support.  This is not
> hypothetical.  These installations do exist.  You don't want to
> install a new key manually on them.

In this context, "manual" means "invoke apt-key to remove the old key
and add the new one".  This isn't much different from invoking apt-get
(or pushing any other scripted change to the machines).

Do you think it's still a problem, even if you take apt-key into
account?


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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Kevin Mark]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 10:29:37AM +0100, David Schmitt wrote:
> Hi Kev, list!
> 
> On Tuesday 15 February 2005 08:27, Kevin Mark wrote:
> > after my initial work on a diagram, and the comments and the work of
> > madduck,  I had some time to redo my diagram to produce a totally new
> > concept. any comment appreciated.
> 
> Really nice and clean. Great to see such fundamental processes documented 
> properly! Some things though, perhaps someone can help me out here:

Thanks!

> 
> * buildd: there is more than one of them and I always thought the results are 
> checked (and signed) manually by the buildd admins?

someone just emailed me about this.

> 
> * propagation from experimental to unstable: I always thought that required a 
> re-upload?

see above.

> 
> * "testing packages propagate to stable" is perhaps better called "release: 
> testing becomes new-stable"?

see above.

cheers,
Kev
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Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Marco d'Itri]

On Feb 15, Justin Pryzby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I suppose I will start filing minor bugs against packages that do
> this.  I'd like to hear other people's opinions, though.  (It occurs
> to me that help output to stderr is arguably appropriate if an invalid
> option is given).  Part of the problem is that its fairly depressing
WTF? This is a long-time UNIX tradition, I'd summarily close such a bug
opened on one of my packages.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Matthew Palmer]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 10:19:12AM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Feb 15, Justin Pryzby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I suppose I will start filing minor bugs against packages that do
> > this.  I'd like to hear other people's opinions, though.  (It occurs
> > to me that help output to stderr is arguably appropriate if an invalid
> > option is given).  Part of the problem is that its fairly depressing
> WTF? This is a long-time UNIX tradition,

So your best rebuttal is "It's tradition!"?  Strong argument you've got
there.

> I'd summarily close such a bug opened on one of my packages.

Good for you.

- Matt


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Re: Request for Help: apt 0.6

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> |  - key management,
>
>  - are able to review the key management part and
>  - design and discuss this with the release team
>  - (re-)design and discuss package updates and security updates
>  - take into account that the archive key is rotated yearly

Hi,

I just wanted to mention that the key management affects more than
just apt. Some partial mirror scripts also do Release.gpg verification
to guard against intrusion.

To name two: reprepro maintained by Bernhard R. Link currently in
queue/NEW and debmirror which I maintain.


It would be nice if they could also get key updates from the same
management system.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Package xxx has broken dep on yyy: normal?

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Upon apt-get, is it normal to every so often see "Package xxx has
> broken dep on yyy"?  However the next day the problem is gone.

Yes.

> If normal, then can't whatever intermediate stage not be split across
> the mirror push?  Somehow can consistent versions of xxx and yyy
> either be made sure to go out this mirror run together, or both wait
> for the next run?

No and yes.

There are some packages with a strict version depend (=) between a
arch:any and arch:all package. The maintainers upload will update the
arch:all package to the new version while leaving most archs without
the arch:any package. Some time after the upload the buildd will fill
in the missing arch:any debs but not necessarily before the daily
dinstall run.

Those cases can't be avoided with the current DAK implementation but
they should be. Patches are surely welcome.


Other things are strict versioned depends between different source
packages. Even with a coordinated upload of both source packages the
buildds can (and will often) build them out of order so you see only
one of them for a short while. But those cases should be uncommon and
nothing can be done there. Thats just how unstable works.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Ricardo Mones]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:19:12 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) wrote:

> On Feb 15, Justin Pryzby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I suppose I will start filing minor bugs against packages that do
> > this.  I'd like to hear other people's opinions, though.  (It occurs
> > to me that help output to stderr is arguably appropriate if an
> > invalid option is given).  Part of the problem is that its fairly
> > depressing
> WTF? This is a long-time UNIX tradition, I'd summarily close such a
> bug opened on one of my packages.

  Indeed, that's the only way people bothers to learn the 2>&1|pager
mantra ;-)
-- 
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  33271 Asturias, SPAIN. - http://www.aic.uniovi.es/mones


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Bug#295328: marked as done (general: Help messages to stderr should be banned)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

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and subject line Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned
has caused the attached Bug report to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

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Subject: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned
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Package: general
Severity: wishlist

I occasionally install a program and need to know how to use it as
quickly as possible; for example, while reading through bug reports.
So, I run foo --help.  Sometimes, the help screen is more than 25
lines long, and it scrolls on past.  So, I run foo --help |less.
Occasionally, though, foo writes its help output to stderr, and I'm
left with an empty less buffer.  So, I try again: foo --help 2>&1
 |less.  This is a pretty obnoxious command to have to type just to
see what the required commands are, and in what order they are taken
(and, I guess csh doesn't even allow it).

I already know that I can use the video buffer with shift-pageup.  And
I know that help output is supposed to fit on a single page, but I
also know that sometimes it doesn't.

I suppose I will start filing minor bugs against packages that do
this.  I'd like to hear other people's opinions, though.  (It occurs
to me that help output to stderr is arguably appropriate if an invalid
option is given).  Part of the problem is that its fairly depressing
when investigation into one bug leads to filing of another bug:)

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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Frank Küster]

martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to
>testing.
> i. You use both meanings of "priority" (changelog and control)
>without making it clear which one is meant.

Furthermore, for testing propagation i'ts "urgency" that matters, isn't
it? 

And I've never read "ITO" as a tag for orphaning bug. Either one mails
to -devel (or wherever) saying that they intend to give away or orphan
some packages, but this isn't a bug, just conversation. In the BTS, I
think the tag is simply "O".

Regards, Frank
-- 
Frank Küster
Inst. f. Biochemie der Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer

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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Lars Wirzenius]

ti, 2005-02-15 kello 10:19 +0100, Marco d'Itri kirjoitti:
> On Feb 15, Justin Pryzby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I suppose I will start filing minor bugs against packages that do
> > this.  I'd like to hear other people's opinions, though.  (It occurs
> > to me that help output to stderr is arguably appropriate if an invalid
> > option is given).  Part of the problem is that its fairly depressing
> WTF? This is a long-time UNIX tradition, I'd summarily close such a bug
> opened on one of my packages.

In my opinion, if you give a wrong option (or do some other syntax error
on the command line), the proper thing to do is to give an error
message, preferably short, saying what the error was and how to get the
full help text. This is an error message, so it should go to the
standard error output. 

When the user explicitly requests for a help text, it is not an error
and should go to the standard output.

GNU tools work like this already, and have, to the best of my knowledge,
worked like this for well over a decade. Tools that behave differently
are also fairly common, so I guess tradition isn't clearcut here.

I do claim that the GNU way is the right way here.


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Re: debian-policy: Virtual package: change mp3-encoder with music-encoder

[Jesus Climent]

On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 12:31:18PM +, Colin Watson wrote:
> 
> In that case, one would simply depend on that, and the shell wrapper
> would depend on an |-ed list of the encoders it understood. I still
> don't see that the virtual package could be useful.

Well, I dont see why mp3-encoder is useful, since no package in main provides
it and only one package suggests it.

On the other hand, the shell wrapper seems to be a good idea. I will try to
implement it.

-- 
Jesus Climent  info:www.pumuki.org
Unix SysAdm|Linux User #66350|Debian Developer|2.6.10|Helsinki Finland
GPG: 1024D/86946D69 BB64 2339 1CAA 7064 E429  7E18 66FC 1D7F 8694 6D69

We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.
--C-3PO (Star Wars)


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[John Hasler]

Francesco P. Lovergine writes:
> It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
> either --help or invalid options.

Sure, but the output should still be directed correctly.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Francesco P. Lovergine]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:38:08AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> Francesco P. Lovergine writes:
> > It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
> > either --help or invalid options.
> 
> Sure, but the output should still be directed correctly.

Quite difficult if the function is the same. In both cases it uses stderr.

-- 
Francesco P. Lovergine


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Matthew Palmer]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 03:06:19PM +0100, Francesco P. Lovergine wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:38:08AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> > Francesco P. Lovergine writes:
> > > It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
> > > either --help or invalid options.
> > 
> > Sure, but the output should still be directed correctly.
> 
> Quite difficult if the function is the same. In both cases it uses stderr.

So you change the program to take a file descriptor into the help-printing
function, or provide some other means of determining where to send the
output.

- Matt


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 03:06:19PM +0100, Francesco P. Lovergine wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:38:08AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> > Francesco P. Lovergine writes:
> > > It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
> > > either --help or invalid options.
> > 
> > Sure, but the output should still be directed correctly.
> 
> Quite difficult if the function is the same. In both cases it uses stderr.

A computer can technically do anything; difficulty results from
(an) incorrect decision(s) by (a) programmer(s).

-- 
 EARTH
 smog  |   bricks
 AIR  --  mud  -- FIRE
soda water |   tequila
 WATER
 -- with thanks to fortune


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Frank Küster]

"Francesco P. Lovergine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:

> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:38:08AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
>> Francesco P. Lovergine writes:
>> > It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
>> > either --help or invalid options.
>> 
>> Sure, but the output should still be directed correctly.
>
> Quite difficult if the function is the same. In both cases it uses stderr.

#!/bin/sh

usage(){
  if [ "$1" = "STDERR" ]; then 
EXITCODE=1
exec >&2; 
  else
  EXITCODE=0
  fi
  echo "bla..."
  exit $EXITCODE
}

case "$1" in
 --help|-h|-help)
   usage;;
 --foo)
  ...
 *)
   usage STDERR;;
esac

Translation to Perl, Python, C, whatever, and to multiple arguments is
left to the reader as an afternoon exercise.

Regards, Frank
-- 
Frank Küster
Inst. f. Biochemie der Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer

Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Francesco Paolo Lovergine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
> either --help or invalid options. Not always GNU rules are
> followed appropriately.

Right, and in that case, it's a bug.


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

"Francesco P. Lovergine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Quite difficult if the function is the same. In both cases it uses stderr.

Oh good grief.  Add an argument to the function saying where to direct
the output.  How hard is this?


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[H. S. Teoh]

On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:06:30PM -0500, Justin Pryzby wrote:
[...]
> I occasionally install a program and need to know how to use it as
> quickly as possible; for example, while reading through bug reports.
> So, I run foo --help.  Sometimes, the help screen is more than 25
> lines long, and it scrolls on past.  So, I run foo --help |less.
> Occasionally, though, foo writes its help output to stderr, and I'm
> left with an empty less buffer.  So, I try again: foo --help 2>&1
>  |less.  This is a pretty obnoxious command to have to type just to
> see what the required commands are, and in what order they are taken
> (and, I guess csh doesn't even allow it).
[...]

Actually, in csh/tcsh it's very un-obnoxious: foo --help |& less

This is one of the things I wish bash supports, so that I can switch
to bash. (I use csh/tcsh as my primary shell.)

FWIW.


T

-- 
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore,
if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not
smart enough to debug it. -- Brian W. Kernighan


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Re: mirror the Packages files _after_ the packages!

[Dan Jacobson]

S> You've been told this before -- *debian-devel does not control the mirroring
S> implementation used by arbitrary Debian mirrors*.  Either talk to the mirror
S> team and give them enough information to track this down, or -- since you
S> know him well enough to be kept in the loop about his vacation schedule --
S> talk to your local mirror operator directly and get him to stop using broken
S> mirroring scripts.

I'm saying that bug 6786 has the potential to turn the current perhaps
two hour per day down time for apt-get, aptitude, etc. into a several
day long down time.

D> > Failed to fetch http://xx.linux.org.xx/debian/pool/main/x

S> Yeah, real helpful of you to blot out the only potentially useful bit of
S> information in your post...

No. The root of the problem is bug 6786.  Indeed if 6786 were fixed,
the mirror process could break at any time and users could still
apt-get upgrade with yesterdays state instead of not being to apt-get
upgrade at all (if the mirror process happen to break during the 2
hour dark period each day.) Indeed, no 2 hour dark period necessary too.

Please double check 6786 to see if it is merely a local problem.
Would you close it?


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Adam Heath]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Frank Küster wrote:

> "Francesco P. Lovergine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>
> > On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:38:08AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> >> Francesco P. Lovergine writes:
> >> > It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
> >> > either --help or invalid options.
> >>
> >> Sure, but the output should still be directed correctly.
> >
> > Quite difficult if the function is the same. In both cases it uses stderr.
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> usage(){
>   if [ "$1" = "STDERR" ]; then
> EXITCODE=1
> exec >&2;
>   else
>   EXITCODE=0
>   fi
>   echo "bla..."
>   exit $EXITCODE
> }
>
> case "$1" in
>  --help|-h|-help)
>usage;;
>  --foo)
>   ...
>  *)
>usage STDERR;;
> esac
>
> Translation to Perl, Python, C, whatever, and to multiple arguments is
> left to the reader as an afternoon exercise.

What's with all this complexity?  Just redirect stdout to stderr when you call
the function.  Geez.

==
usage() {
if [ $# -gt 0 ]; then
echo "$@"
fi
echo foo
echo baz
}

case "$1" in
(-h)usage; exit 0;;
(*) usage "Unknown option($1)" 1>&2; exit 1;;
esac
==

Re: mirror the Packages files _after_ the packages!

[Jeroen van Wolffelaar]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 11:51:10PM +0800, Dan Jacobson wrote:
> S> You've been told this before -- *debian-devel does not control the 
> mirroring
> S> implementation used by arbitrary Debian mirrors*.  Either talk to the 
> mirror
> S> team and give them enough information to track this down, or -- since you
> S> know him well enough to be kept in the loop about his vacation schedule --
> S> talk to your local mirror operator directly and get him to stop using 
> broken
> S> mirroring scripts.
> 
> I'm saying that bug 6786 has the potential to turn the current perhaps
> two hour per day down time for apt-get, aptitude, etc. into a several
> day long down time.

How mirrors do their mirroring is up to the local mirror administrator,
not to the general debian developer's community. Debian could promote
this two-phase mirroring a bit more maybe, and/or provide nice scripts,
that's probably why #6786 is still open.

BUT DEBIAN CANNOT IN ANY WAY FORCE/CONTROL HOW MIRRORS OPERATE,
especially not the secundary mirrors.
 
> D> > Failed to fetch http://xx.linux.org.xx/debian/pool/main/x
> 
> S> Yeah, real helpful of you to blot out the only potentially useful bit of
> S> information in your post...
> 
> No. The root of the problem is bug 6786.  Indeed if 6786 were fixed,

#6786 doesn't need to be fixed for this, the mirror admin of
xx.linux.org.xx just needs to implement two-phase mirroring,
something that anyone with a bit shell/rsync foo can implement on
his/her own, and ttbomk, already a lot of mirrors actually _do_.

As numerous people have told you before, bugger your local mirror admin,
especially since he seems to have slow bandwidth and therefore the 'dark
period' takes long.

--Jeroen

-- 
Jeroen van Wolffelaar
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber & MSN; ICQ: 33944357)
http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Ricardo Mones]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:19:35 -0800
"H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:06:30PM -0500, Justin Pryzby wrote:
> [...]
> > I occasionally install a program and need to know how to use it as
> > quickly as possible; for example, while reading through bug reports.
> > So, I run foo --help.  Sometimes, the help screen is more than 25
> > lines long, and it scrolls on past.  So, I run foo --help |less.
> > Occasionally, though, foo writes its help output to stderr, and I'm
> > left with an empty less buffer.  So, I try again: foo --help 2>&1
> >  |less.  This is a pretty obnoxious command to have to type just to
> > see what the required commands are, and in what order they are taken
> > (and, I guess csh doesn't even allow it).
> [...]
> 
> Actually, in csh/tcsh it's very un-obnoxious: foo --help |& less
> 
> This is one of the things I wish bash supports, so that I can switch
> to bash. (I use csh/tcsh as my primary shell.)

  bash can be easily forced to be even more un-obnoxious, put:

  function helpof()
  {
$1 --help 2>&1|pager
  }

  in your ~/.bashrc, then "helpof command" gives you all. 
  Shorten function name to your likings and probably you have to type less
than with "command --help".
-- 
  Ricardo Mones Lastra - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Centro de Inteligencia Artificial, Universidad de Oviedo en Gijon
  33271 Asturias, SPAIN. - http://www.aic.uniovi.es/mones


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Moria, as in the Author of

[Robert Koeneke]

Not sure why people are looking for me, but I received an
e-mail containing a conversation thread claiming I am “unreachable”. 
Last I checked I was pretty easy to reach through [EMAIL PROTECTED].

 

Moria is a game I wrote some 20 years ago.  Hard to believe
anyone would still be playing it.  

 

Anyway, if someone is trying to reach me please pass along
my e-mail address.  If you don’t know what this e-mail is about then
perhaps it was a prank on me so delete it.

 

 

Re: Moria, as in the Author of

[Jeroen van Wolffelaar]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 11:23:19PM +0430, Robert Koeneke wrote:
>Not sure why people are looking for me, but I received an e-mail
>containing a conversation thread claiming I am "unreachable".  Last I
>checked I was pretty easy to reach through [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>Moria is a game I wrote some 20 years ago.  Hard to believe anyone would
>still be playing it. 
> 
>Anyway, if someone is trying to reach me please pass along my e-mail
>address.  If you don't know what this e-mail is about then perhaps it was
>a prank on me so delete it.

Hi Robert!

The package is still part of Debian. It was the Debian maintainer that
lost interest in the package. See:

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=274472

Apparantly, people still use it, see:

http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?popcon=moria

I'm cc'ing this mail to bug#274472, so that it can be considered by
people wanting to do something with it.

Do you think moria still has a place in Debian? Or do you gather it
might be better removed?

--Jeroen

-- 
Jeroen van Wolffelaar
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber & MSN; ICQ: 33944357)
http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl


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Re: mplayer, the time has come

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit A Mennucc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>  debianizer - isn't there a debian/rules way to do this now?

> no way at all

Yes way. See "debian/rules get-orig-source" in policy.

Rest of reply in debian-legal. Why are you posting the same thing
separately to two different lists?

-- 
Henning Makholm "However, the fact that the utterance by
   Epimenides of that false sentence could imply the
   existence of some Cretan who is not a liar is rather unsettling."


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Re: mirror the Packages files _after_ the packages!

[Martin Zobel-Helas]

Hi Jeroen,

> How mirrors do their mirroring is up to the local mirror administrator,
> not to the general debian developer's community. Debian could promote
> this two-phase mirroring a bit more maybe, and/or provide nice scripts,
> that's probably why #6786 is still open.
> 
> BUT DEBIAN CANNOT IN ANY WAY FORCE/CONTROL HOW MIRRORS OPERATE,
> especially not the secundary mirrors.

But Debian could at least offer an updated rsync-script. Its over a
month ago, i posted an updated script to [EMAIL PROTECTED] but noone yet
cared and updated it.

Greetings
Martin
--
What's done to children, they will do to society.


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Bug#295430: ITP: cpufrequtils -- Tools to access to the Linux kernel cpufreq subsystem

[Javier Setoain]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Javier Setoain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: cpufrequtils
  Version : 0.2-pre1
  Upstream Author : Dominik Brodowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.example.org/
* License : GPL
  Description : Tools to access the Linux kernel cpufreq subsystem

 To make access to the Linux kernel cpufreq subsystem easier for users and
 cpufreq userspace tools, a cpufrequtils package was created. It contains
 command line tools to determine current CPUfreq settings and to modify
 them (cpufreq-info and cpufreq-set).

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 3.1
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Kernel: Linux 2.6.10
Locale: LANG=es_ES.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=es_ES.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) (ignored: LC_ALL 
set to es_ES.UTF-8)


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Goswin von Brederlow]

"H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Actually, in csh/tcsh it's very un-obnoxious: foo --help |& less

zsh too.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Moria, as in the Author of

[Clint Adams]

> Do you think moria still has a place in Debian? Or do you gather it
> might be better removed?

A better question is whether Mr. Koeneke is willing to relicense his
code under a free software license so that moria and angband and
derivatives can finally be free.


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Re: Moria, as in the Author of

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Robert Koeneke wrote:
> Moria is a game I wrote some 20 years ago.  Hard to believe anyone would
> still be playing it.  

Please drop by: http://www.thangorodrim.net to have an idea of how much
people still play Moria and games based on it.

And also see what was done with your code, and just how much people liked
it: http://www.thangorodrim.net/history/version.txt

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Greg Folkert]

On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 02:27 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote:
> Hi debianista,
> 
> after my initial work on a diagram, and the comments and the work of
> madduck,  I had some time to redo my diagram to produce a totally new
> concept. any comment appreciated.
> 
> http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.png
> http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.dia

Not to find fault with something that will clear up much confusion in
the Debian Sphere of Being, but I am wonder where the contributions back
to upstream are in this picture?

Where should it go? I don't know. Debian is one of the largest
contributors to upstream(s), with bug-fixes, feature adds and
improvements in code cleanliness. As well as being upstream for many
things.

Also, shouldn't it also be noted the distributions that are based on
Debian that give-back to upstream (like Ubuntu and the plugin-dev and
pmount thing). Given I don't know if it warrants, as it would be a user
submission with patch to the DBTS.

Other than that, I think its very good looking, I don't have the
knowledge to judge whether it is accurate of not.
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The technology that is
Stronger, better, faster: Linux


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Re: Moria, as in the Author of

[Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 11:23:19PM +0430, Robert Koeneke wrote:
> 
> Moria is a game I wrote some 20 years ago.  Hard to believe anyone would
> still be playing it. 

Good software (and concepts) never dies. If you google for "Moria variant"
you will actually see that not only people are still playing it, but there
are variants abound: Angband, Druid, and Boss and it has been ported to
quite a number of platforms not just Linux (see [1]). 

Regards 

Javier

PS: I'm actually a Nethack, not a Moria, player myself :-)

[1] http://www.piratehaven.org/~beej/moria/mirror/Games/Moria/ (Atari, 
Amiga, PC and other ports)
or 
http://roguelike-palm.sourceforge.net/kMoria/index.php (PalmOS)


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Re: Moria, as in the Author of

[Isaac Clerencia]

On Tuesday, 15 de February de 2005 19:53, Robert Koeneke wrote:
> Not sure why people are looking for me, but I received an e-mail containing
> a conversation thread claiming I am "unreachable".  Last I checked I was
> pretty easy to reach through [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Moria is a game I wrote some 20 years ago.  Hard to believe anyone would
> still be playing it.

Well, just another one to say that Moria was great, and that I've spent *lots* 
of hours during several years playing Moria, Angband and ZAngband. And I've 
used Angband code for some home projects too :)

It would be great if you can relicense your code under the GPL or some other 
free license, others Angband developers like Ben Harrison have already done 
that.

Best regards and thank you for creating Moria


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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, Matthew Palmer said:
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 03:06:19PM +0100, Francesco P. Lovergine wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:38:08AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> > > Francesco P. Lovergine writes:
> > > > It depends on programs, sometimes the same usage function is used for
> > > > either --help or invalid options.
> > > 
> > > Sure, but the output should still be directed correctly.
> > 
> > Quite difficult if the function is the same. In both cases it uses stderr.
> 
> So you change the program to take a file descriptor into the help-printing
> function, or provide some other means of determining where to send the
> output.

I just recently sent a patch upstream for hdparm for exactly this,
implemented exactly this way, since his previous implementation was a
single function that was reused.  It is trivial to do so, and it is also
the Right Thing, IMHO.
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Re: Package xxx has broken dep on yyy: normal?

[Dan Jacobson]

Well OK, but please be aware of the cases where a kid leaves his
village for a trip to the big city and his single chance to do an
apt-get dist-upgrade.  He can't just try again tomorrow if things
don't work out.


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Re: Package xxx has broken dep on yyy: normal?

[Santiago Vila]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Dan Jacobson wrote:

> Well OK, but please be aware of the cases where a kid leaves his
> village for a trip to the big city and his single chance to do an
> apt-get dist-upgrade.  He can't just try again tomorrow if things
> don't work out.

Unstable is definitely not for people who "can't try again".
Try this if you don't understand:

awk 'NR >= 258 && NR <= 278' /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL


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Looking for an NPTL porting project

[Blunt Jackson]

Ahoy!

Any developers on this list interested in some help porting an application from
LinuxThreads to NPTL? As part of a research project, I need to work through
these details, and figure I might as well make myself useful on a real
app rather
than mock up some braindead multithreaded hello world for the occasion.

In particular, I'm looking for something that attempts to handle signals or work
with PIDs under LinuxThreads, and which will break under NPTL unless proper
conversion is done.

Something non-graphical is preferable, but not necessary.

Any takers? Pointers to other lists / development projects equally appreciated.

-Blunt Jackson

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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Kevin Mark]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 11:24:18AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
> 
> Great work! I am glad to see you got down with dia; I love that
> tool. Here are some comments:

Its cool that it exports to xfig as a way to use both tools.

> 
> a. I am not sure what the "process realm" is.

ACK. renamed it.

> b. Developers do not tag bugs, they sign packages. Is that what you
>meant? Also, note that at the moment, most only sign source
>packages and binary uploads, not the binary packages themselves.

NACK. you lost me. this is a gap in my knowlege. 
differentiate source package, binary upload, and binary package.
where do they go?
what do developers do?
who creates source package, binary uploads and binary pacakges?

> c. Upstream is not really a repository, is it?

ACK. changed it.

> d. I am missing the link between buildd and unstable. They get the
>orig.tar.gz from unstable for any uploads in incoming that do
>not include the tarball.
> e. I think it's "M. Schulze", not Shultze.

ACK.

> f. Sven's name has an Umlaut; here, to cut-n-paste: Müller

ACK. I still dont know how to fiddle with keymaps, input methods or such
things to get these!

> g. "users processes" should be "users' processes", though I think
>you may want to use another word. Like plain "users" or "user
>systems" may be better.

ACK.

> h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to
>testing.

ACK. I'm not familar with all possibilities and also not sure how much
space it would take to include it. maybe a 'subprocess' box?

> i. You use both meanings of "priority" (changelog and control)
>without making it clear which one is meant.

NACK. I only used this word once in referense to high, medium, low
migration of packages from unstable to testing.

> j. "updates propagate", not "updates propagates". I know you are
>talking about the collection, but it sounds weird.

ACK.

> 
> That's it for now.
> 
> To get our graphs onto www.debian.org, I assume we file bugs against
> that pseudo-package.

there is an existing package that could include these? or to make an
ITP?

Someone in the 'eyecatcher' project said these may be helpful.

> Let me know when you are ready, then we can
> submit one bug report together.
> 
Cool!

Kev

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Re: Bug#295328: general: Help messages to stderr should be banned

[Miles Bader]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) writes:
>> I suppose I will start filing minor bugs against packages that do
>> this.  I'd like to hear other people's opinions, though.  (It occurs
>> to me that help output to stderr is arguably appropriate if an invalid
>> option is given).  Part of the problem is that its fairly depressing
> WTF? This is a long-time UNIX tradition, I'd summarily close such a bug
> opened on one of my packages.

It's not clear what you're talking about here.

It's certainly correct (and "tradition") for _error messages_ to go to
stderr.

However, --help output _is not an error message_.  It is program output,
produced in response to an explicit user request.

Programs that send --help output to stderr are annoying for any user,
and doubly so for inexperienced users that may not know how to redirect
stderr (e.g., with 2>&1).

These are the reasons that the GNU standards specify that --help output
should go to stdout, not stderr.

[There are many non-GNU programs (and some GNU programs that don't
follow the standards properly) that send --help output to stderr, but
there seems to be no particular "tradition" about it -- basically prior
to GNU, people didn't seem to think very hard about this issue, and
it was pretty random whether stderr or stdout was used.]

-Miles
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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Kevin Mark]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 01:11:33PM +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
> martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to
> >testing.
> > i. You use both meanings of "priority" (changelog and control)
> >without making it clear which one is meant.
> 
> Furthermore, for testing propagation i'ts "urgency" that matters, isn't
> it? 

Hi Frank,
isnt that addressed by the tag "Urgency: Low|Medium|High"?

> 
> And I've never read "ITO" as a tag for orphaning bug. Either one mails
> to -devel (or wherever) saying that they intend to give away or orphan
> some packages, but this isn't a bug, just conversation. In the BTS, I
> think the tag is simply "O".
> 

so, there is no 'bug' to the bts to orphan a package, simply a note to
debian-devel? So folks are expected to troll it to pickup packages?
ok. I will change the ITO to 'read about orphanded package on
debian-devel'.
-Kev
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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Kevin Mark]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 05:34:38PM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 02:27 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote:
> > Hi debianista,
> > 
> > after my initial work on a diagram, and the comments and the work of
> > madduck,  I had some time to redo my diagram to produce a totally new
> > concept. any comment appreciated.
> > 
> > http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.png
> > http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.dia
> 
> Not to find fault with something that will clear up much confusion in
> the Debian Sphere of Being, but I am wonder where the contributions back
> to upstream are in this picture?

Hi Greg,
in my original diagram (http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.png), I
included an indication of that. I will be including it in this one, but
have not done so yet.

> 
> Where should it go? I don't know. Debian is one of the largest
> contributors to upstream(s), with bug-fixes, feature adds and
> improvements in code cleanliness. As well as being upstream for many
> things.
> 
> Also, shouldn't it also be noted the distributions that are based on
> Debian that give-back to upstream (like Ubuntu and the plugin-dev and
> pmount thing). 

woun't that be out of the scope of my diagram?

> Given I don't know if it warrants, as it would be a user
> submission with patch to the DBTS.
> 
> Other than that, I think its very good looking, I don't have the
> knowledge to judge whether it is accurate of not.
> -- 

thanks for the input.
cheers,
Kev


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Re: RFC: graph of Debian package cycle

[Gunnar Wolf]

martin f krafft dijo [Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:47:27PM +0100]:
> Based on the work of Kevin Mark (URL not available, sorry), I have
> made a graph of the life cycle of a Debian package for inclusion in
> my forthcoming book (http://debianbook.info). You can find the
> sources and generated files at
> 
>   http://people.debian.org/~madduck/graphs/package-cycle/en/

Good! I do hope to be soon near a graphics-capable display ;-) I have
always liked this stuff.

> PS: right now it's really big in size. Sorry about that. If someone
> tells me how to reliably scale a dia diagram down, I will do so,
> gladly.

I do it this way:

dia -nt png -s800 diagram.dia

This will output a 800 pixel wide diagram. Of course, this will be
only as reliable as the selected resolution allows.

Greetings,

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Ubuntu for packaging for Debian

[Maykel Moya]

I'd recently adquire a little laptop (p3 900, 256 MB RAM). I'm been
thinking to install Ubuntu in it cause Ubuntu is optimized for desktop,
but I'd like to package some stuff for Debian.

Is it advisable to use a pure Debian instead ?

Regards,
mike



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Re: Package xxx has broken dep on yyy: normal?

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Well OK, but please be aware of the cases where a kid leaves his
> village for a trip to the big city and his single chance to do an
> apt-get dist-upgrade.  He can't just try again tomorrow if things
> don't work out.

I'm inclined to think that people should not do apt-get dist-upgrade
on unstable.


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Re: Package xxx has broken dep on yyy: normal?

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Well OK, but please be aware of the cases where a kid leaves his
> village for a trip to the big city and his single chance to do an
> apt-get dist-upgrade.  He can't just try again tomorrow if things
> don't work out.

So what? Then they don't have the bleading edge version of the package
but their old non upgrade one. Big deal.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Package xxx has broken dep on yyy: normal?

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Goswin von Brederlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Well OK, but please be aware of the cases where a kid leaves his
> > village for a trip to the big city and his single chance to do an
> > apt-get dist-upgrade.  He can't just try again tomorrow if things
> > don't work out.
> 
> So what? Then they don't have the bleading edge version of the package
> but their old non upgrade one. Big deal.

I think the point is that dist-upgrade can sometimes do the Wrong
Thing in cases like this.


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Re: Ubuntu for packaging for Debian

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 02:04:17AM -0400, Maykel Moya wrote:

> I'd recently adquire a little laptop (p3 900, 256 MB RAM). I'm been
> thinking to install Ubuntu in it cause Ubuntu is optimized for desktop,
> but I'd like to package some stuff for Debian.
> 
> Is it advisable to use a pure Debian instead ?

You can use Ubuntu and do Debian development in a chroot, or use Debian and
do Ubuntu development in a chroot.  So, you're free to pick whichever you
prefer, but it will be more convenient to run the system where you will do
(more of) your development.

-- 
 - mdz


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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Adeodato Simó]

* Kevin Mark [Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:09:03 -0500]:

> > And I've never read "ITO" as a tag for orphaning bug. Either one mails
> > to -devel (or wherever) saying that they intend to give away or orphan
> > some packages, but this isn't a bug, just conversation. In the BTS, I
> > think the tag is simply "O".

> so, there is no 'bug' to the bts to orphan a package, simply a note to
> debian-devel? So folks are expected to troll it to pickup packages?
> ok. I will change the ITO to 'read about orphanded package on
> debian-devel'.

  Please compare [1], [2], and [3]. Basically:

1. maintainer writes -devel
2. maintainer writes -devel and files RFAs
3. maintainer submits O: bug against wnnp and CC's -devel

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00346.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00534.html
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00676.html

  But orphaning bugs can be filed without sending mail to -devel, though
  this makes them less effective.

  HTH,

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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.02.15.1314 +0100]:
> > b. Developers do not tag bugs, they sign packages. Is that what you
> >meant? Also, note that at the moment, most only sign source
> >packages and binary uploads, not the binary packages themselves.
> 
> NACK. you lost me. this is a gap in my knowlege. 
> differentiate source package, binary upload, and binary package.

source package: dsc + (diff) + orig.tar.gz
binary package: deb
source upload: changes + list of files therein

> where do they go?

all to incoming.

> what do developers do?

twiddle our thumbs?

nah, we turn software into debian packages by debianising them, and
then using dpkg-genchanges to create the changes file. Please read
its manpage, in particular about the -sa, -sd, and -si options to
see which files the changes file will list.

the upload consists of the source package and the binary package,
unless the debian revision is greater than 1, in which case the
orig.tar.gz file is not included.

> > h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to
> >testing.
> 
> ACK. I'm not familar with all possibilities and also not sure how much
> space it would take to include it. maybe a 'subprocess' box?

you could just say "meets requirements for testing"

> > i. You use both meanings of "priority" (changelog and control)
> >without making it clear which one is meant.
> 
> NACK. I only used this word once in referense to high, medium, low
> migration of packages from unstable to testing.

yes, and as someone else pointed out, this should be urgency. sorry,
i thought you used it elsewhere too.

> > To get our graphs onto www.debian.org, I assume we file bugs against
> > that pseudo-package.
> 
> there is an existing package that could include these? or to make an
> ITP?

www.debian.org is a pseudo package:

  http://www.debian.org/Bugs/pseudo-packages

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help needed with mips build failure

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Can someone with mips and/or libtool expertise examine the build
failure for gnucash below, and see if they can diagnose the problem?


http://buildd.debian.org/fetch.php?&pkg=gnucash&ver=1.8.10-5&arch=mips&stamp=1107337123&file=log&as=raw


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Re: help needed with mips build failure

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 11:22:01PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:

> Can someone with mips and/or libtool expertise examine the build
> failure for gnucash below, and see if they can diagnose the problem?

> http://buildd.debian.org/fetch.php?&pkg=gnucash&ver=1.8.10-5&arch=mips&stamp=1107337123&file=log&as=raw

  checking how to recognise dependant libraries... file_magic ELF 
[0-9][0-9]*-bit [LM]SB (shared object|dynamic lib )

You're using an old (and broken) version of libtool.  C.f.
 for
Ryan's boilerplate explanation for fixing this problem.

Thanks,
-- 
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postmodern programmer


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Re: Ubuntu for packaging for Debian

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Matt Zimmerman]
> You can use Ubuntu and do Debian development in a chroot, or use Debian and
> do Ubuntu development in a chroot.  So, you're free to pick whichever you
> prefer, but it will be more convenient to run the system where you will do
> (more of) your development.

Yes, and use pbuilder to build the package, please. :)

(If only Ubuntu would do an effort to get their "home-made" packages
like xresprobe into Debian. :)


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Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!

[Bernd Eckenfels]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you wrote:
> And I've never read "ITO" as a tag for orphaning bug.

This would be RFA?

Greetings
Bernd


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Please make Moria free (was: Moria, as in the Author of)

[Erik Schanze]

Hi all!

Clint Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Do you think moria still has a place in Debian? Or do you gather it
> > might be better removed?
>
> A better question is whether Mr. Koeneke is willing to relicense his
> code under a free software license so that moria and angband and
> derivatives can finally be free.
>
That would be nice and increase the chance that anybody adopt the Debian 
package, I think.


Kindly regards,
Erik


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Re: /etc under svk

[Marc Haber]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:16:31 +0100, Florian Weimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>* Torsten Landschoff:
>> Wanted to do that - but! Does svk handle symlinks? Thinking of
>> /etc/rc?.d and /etc/alternatives... Wrote my own scripts to handle svn
>> for /etc but they are still quite hackish...
>
>Subversion 1.1 and svk 0.18 both support symlinks natively.

Another topic that needs to be addressed with putting /etc under
version control is file modes and owner/group. cvs doesn't handle that
well at all.

Also, the repository needs to be protected as /etc itself is, as it
contains passwords and other system confidential data.

Greetings
Marc

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