Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Marc Haber]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:45:09 +1100, Martin Michlmayr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-11-13 05:00]:
>> As for the DAM, i wander why an AM racommends an applicant, but the
>> DAM does not accept him. What does this mean? Is AM role relevant or
>> in effect DAM is the real one who decides? If the latter, why
>> haveing AM?
>
>Of course the DAM is the one who makes the decision; after all, he's
>the only one with the authority to make the decision (read the
>constitution).  The AM prepares a report which the DAM uses to form a
>decision, but he doesn't necessarily have to form the same conclusions
>as the AM.  Also note that the DAM's decision can be overridden.

As far the DAM issue goes: I find it necessary to reject people. But
if, we have to do so in an acceptable time spam. Having people wait
for DAM approval for months is simply bad.

For ftpmaster, rejecting a package with "try again, I might like it
the next time, or a colleague might" is remarkably bad.

>> As you can see, this has nothing to deal with popular or unpopular
>> decision.
>
>Right, just take Eray as an example (and note that the NM committee
>agreed 100% with the DAM's decision; yet the DAM got all the blame).

How long did Eray wait for formal rejection? Did he receive regular
updates about the state of affairs?

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber  |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Karlsruhe, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15
Nordisch by Nature  | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Marc Haber]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:02:26 +1100, Russell Coker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Look on the bright side, having someone refer to your email as "crap" is 
>better than being called a "nerd" at school, which I think happened to most 
>people on this list and probably happened to you.  ;)

Actually, I have always seen that as a compliment and have reacted
with pointing out that is was Murray Bozinski, the uber-nerd, who
ended up with all the women. Hey, "Riptide" was fun back then.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber  |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Karlsruhe, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15
Nordisch by Nature  | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29

Re: gimp1.2: gimp package suggest non-free software

[Roberto Suarez Soto]

On Nov/13, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

> Sometimes I wonder how I'd feel if some spoke of men in such a
> way. This occurs much less often than its opposite.

I would laugh a lot if some woman made a comment similar to mine, but
regarding the size of other part of the masculine body :-) In fact, the
ability to counter my sexist jokes with other jokes would be something that
I'd really appreciate in a woman :-)

BTW, I only know of one female DD (hola, Amaya :-)). How many are
there? Speak, ladies :-)

-- 
Roberto Suarez Soto Alfa21 Outsourcing
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.alfa21.com

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis]

[ I'm subscribed: please avoid to Cc me ]

Hi Russel,
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 12:09:43PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> I think that we have more of a problem of people being afraid to contribute 
> because of the fear of undue criticism or rejection than we have of unworthy 
> people joining.
> 
> The number of people who have been rejected is small.  The number of people 
> who are good coders who could contribute to Debian if they chose is much 
> larger.

This is a matter of opinion: is my opinion that motivation is more important
than skills: enthusiasts, and motivated people are ready to learn and willed
to bring the best, hence to be good coders. People who already are good coders
might not be so interested and might not want to bring the same quality.

Anyway, we must (because we can), let good coders in, and reject not motivated
people. I propose to move AM/DAM[1] reports to a public list with a private
archive. Anyone must be able to know what's going on in the _entire_ NM
process by subscribing the list. At the same time it's reasonable to nicely
handle rejection by not letting reports be publically browsable: any one
willing to have old information for the archive must ask a Debian member [2].

ciao,
[1] This means that all mails sent by DAM, must be also sent to the list.
[2] I know that people myght archive this list anyway, but we must trust our
users as they trust us. Disclaimers may be added to the end of the each
essage.
-- 
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis  | Elegant or ugly code as well
aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have
Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''.   | something in common: they
local LANG="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" | don't depend on the 
language.

Re: gimp1.2: gimp package suggest non-free software

[Ben Burton]

> > Sometimes I wonder how I'd feel if some spoke of men in such a
> > way. This occurs much less often than its opposite.
> 
>   I would laugh a lot if some woman made a comment similar to mine, but
> regarding the size of other part of the masculine body :-) In fact, the
> ability to counter my sexist jokes with other jokes would be something that
> I'd really appreciate in a woman :-)

The difference is probably that men have somewhat less of a history of
being evaluated this way when people aren't joking.

b. :)

Re: Bug#220358: ITP: mecab-ipadic -- IPA dictionary compiled for Mecab

[Tim Dijkstra]

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:12:41 +0900
TSUCHIYA Masatoshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> computational processing of Japanese texts.  Unfortunately, its
> license has small violation of DFSG, as follows:
> 
> Each User may also freely distribute the Program, whether in its
> original form or modified, to any third party or parties, PROVIDED
> that the provisions of Section 3 ("NO WARRANTY") will ALWAYS
> appear on, or be attached to, the Program, which is distributed
> substantially in the same form as set out herein and that such
> intended distribution, if actually made, will neither violate or
> otherwise contravene any of the laws and regulations of the
> countries having jurisdiction over the User or the intended
> distribution itself.
> 

First, IANAL and not a native speaker nor a regular debian-legal reader,
but I can't see what is exactly nonfree in this piece of licence. In my
reading it just says,

1) Do what you want with it
2) Keep a NO WARRANTY section in the licence 
3) Don't do any illegal stuff

grts Tim

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:09:39PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>   And a number of other people, also at various levels of
>  Debian, like James, and respect the work he has put in.  The point? 

Later...

> > There must be somthing true in it,
> 
>   I think you really need to examine your understanding of
>  causation.  Lots of people hold a view, so it must be true?

I might have translated an Italian expression in english (this might not have 
the
same meaning), but i meant that there maust be something in the entire issue
that is true/matter of fact/source of the issue. I did not ment that the
entire issue is true. If people don't like James as DAM, i did not meant that 
James
is "bad", but somthing bad happened, while he was representing Debian. When
something like that happen i (we?) can't for sure defend or blame James,
because one is more driven by the good things heared, the other is driven by
people saying bad things.

>   And what about the other people that Like James? Can they too
>  not be wrong?

There must be something true in this too: for example he did something that
people liked a lot (it's all but hard to figure what).

Now It's true that i started this short mail exchange thinking of James
haveing dnoe "yet another ... from elmo": some one sayed it's not. May be.
If we focus on open structure, we must be open not only in users <-> developers
direction but olso developers <-> developers (ftpmasters and keyring), and
developers <-> almost-developers (da-manager).

ciao,
-- 
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis  | Elegant or ugly code as well
aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have
Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''.   | something in common: they
local LANG="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" | don't depend on the 
language.

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-11-13 08:00]:
> > Also note that the DAM's decision can be overridden.
> 
> AFAICT, i never sow this to happen, but if you say so i take it for sure

The guidelines are outlined very clearly, see
http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2003/debian-newmaint-200310/msg1.html

> (but i'd now like to have an example, just out of curiosity).

It hasn't happend yet.  You have to understand that rejections at the
DAM stage are quite rare; most applications are rejected at the AM
stage (and most of them because the applicants don't have enough time
or interest, not because of philosophical or technical problems).

> Indeed you're right. To me we sohuld make things more open. Let's
> make da-manager a mailing list (debian-dam?) with archive

AM reports contain sensitive information (such as e.g. photo IDs,
although those fortunately not as much any more); hence, this is a bad
idea.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-11-13 11:23]:
> That's correct, but there still are unclear point in this workflow.
> The problem is that a new complain pops up, this is yet another
> discussion with no backlog, so i've to build my opinion from what
> happened in the past. The past was not so happy with James (i still
> can't say that now is not like before).

So what's exactly the problem you're trying to solve?  The da-manager
alias is archived and if a "complain[sic] pops up" someone can surely
get access to the archive to see what happened.  Although, if the
complaint is a lack of response, you surely wouldn't find anything
in the archive, would you?

Anyway, I think you should come back when you have a problem you want
to solve.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: gimp1.2: gimp package suggest non-free software

[Stephen M. Gava]

> > I would laugh a lot if some woman made a comment similar to mine, but
> > regarding the size of other part of the masculine body :-) In fact, the
> > ability to counter my sexist jokes with other jokes would be something
> > that I'd really appreciate in a woman :-)
>
> The difference is probably that men have somewhat less of a history of
> being evaluated this way when people aren't joking.

Just so.

-- 
Stephen M. Gava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance

[Ingo Juergensmann]

As some of you know the mips port has some problems keeping up.

I´ve been told that this is caused by some toolchain and kernel problems on
mips that make the buildds running slow.

So, when watching http://m68k.bluespice.org/buildd/mips_stats over the past
weeks, it´s obvious that mips is heavily struggling on its backlog. 

On m68k we usually know all of those problems as well and having many
machines always helped a lot when one machine or another failed to work
properly. So, the idea was to help themips port with additional mips
machines that can be used as buildds. 

Everything went well with that machine - until we directed the request to
debian-admin to get wanna-build access for mips. The request was rejected
with the following reasons (to my knowledge):
- another machine is in the works
- we don´t need your machine
- you don´t have any knowledge about mips, so the machine wouldn´t be of any
help at all.

As a result and a sort of protest, I´ll stopped my m68k buildd, because I
don´t know m68k that much to be of any help for this port anymore. Therefore
my m68k isn´t needed anymore as my offered mips machine isn´t needed for the
mips port or the Debian project at all.

-- 
Ciao...  // 
  Ingo \X/

Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Ingo Juergensmann wrote:

> As some of you know the mips port has some problems keeping up.
I guess the relevant reference for this problem is:

 http://buildd.debian.org/stats/graph-week-big.png

If you ask me (as a person without any knowledge about buildd internals)
a further mips machine could do some help here.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:53:42PM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> It hasn't happend yet.  You have to understand that rejections at the
> DAM stage are quite rare; most applications are rejected at the AM
> stage (and most of them because the applicants don't have enough time
> or interest, not because of philosophical or technical problems).

I understand, but they happen, and i think this to be a not-so-open point in
our open structure. DAM discussion with applicants (and vice-versa) should be
open for reading (as well as discussion with keyring and ftpmasters, archived
or not archived).
Indeed there is the issues about rejection being public, which should be also
covered. It makes sense to me that poeple being rejected (at any level) would
not like this to be known.

In another mail you also say:
> So what's exactly the problem you're trying to solve?  The da-manager
> alias is archived and if a "complain[sic] pops up" someone can surely
> get access to the archive to see what happened.  Although, if the
> complaint is a lack of response, you surely wouldn't find anything
> in the archive, would you?

But if i do not a good job anyone can read my bug reports (actually there are a
lot of people reading reports to my packages); if i do not reply to
reports, fix bugs, be active for a while, i can become MIA, my packages be
orphaned and eventually i can resign (or be forced to). On my side (a simple
maintainer) evrything i do is under control, and open: people on some
keypoints in Debian structure do not have the same treatment. Not being as
open as the rest of Debian is one of the reasons they are falmed.

Please, I don't want people NMUing keyring/ftpmasters/dam job. The concept is
indeed the same. Of course if the do not reply mails i would not find
anything, but being subscribed i could read directly what happen, or be aware
of the fact that nothing happens.

Haveing a list for DAM does not makes sense? Make DAM discuss _evrythig_ or
be publically contacted (for example about status reporting) on -newmaint.

Trust is not a transitive property: i trusted you as DPL, this does not mean i
trust your delegates. I'd like to know what they do, when they do something
for Debian.

ciao,
-- 
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis  | Elegant or ugly code as well
aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have
Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''.   | something in common: they
local LANG="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" | don't depend on the 
language.

Re: Bug#220358: ITP: mecab-ipadic -- IPA dictionary compiled for Mecab

[David Starner]

> First, IANAL and not a native speaker nor a regular debian-legal reader,
> but I can't see what is exactly nonfree in this piece of licence. In my
> reading it just says,
> 
> 1) Do what you want with it
> 2) Keep a NO WARRANTY section in the licence 
> 3) Don't do any illegal stuff

The last is the killer; say you're a suspected dissident that's prohibited
from using a computer or computing software, making your copying of the
software illegal. Thus after using this software send an email to 
journalists revealing the ongoing genocide of your people, and escaping 
to the free world, you are now open to civil prosecution for copyright 
violation. It discriminates against classes of users and thus violates
the DFSG.

__
Do you want a free e-mail for life ? Get it at http://www.email.ro/

postgresql-dev dependence

[Mickael Profeta]

Hi
I am compiling prelude-manager with postgresql plugin support.
The configure script of prelude-manager test for pg_config to be 
executable.
I set a build-Dependency to postgresql-dev which provides pg_config in 
/usr/bin/ but this one is a dangling symlink to pg_wrapper which is part 
of postgresql-client.

So to compile postgresql plugin, I need postgresql-client.
But should I add it to Build-Depends
should I submit a bug to postgresql-dev to depend on 
postgresql-client (which is the case in mysql for example)
is it an upstream bug to test pg_config in the configure script

thanks for your help
Mike

Re: Bug#220358: ITP: mecab-ipadic -- IPA dictionary compiled for Mecab

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Tim Dijkstra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> TSUCHIYA Masatoshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Each User may also freely distribute the Program, whether in its
> > original form or modified, to any third party or parties, PROVIDED
> > that the provisions of Section 3 ("NO WARRANTY") will ALWAYS
> > appear on, or be attached to, the Program, which is distributed
> > substantially in the same form as set out herein and that such
> > intended distribution, if actually made, will neither violate or
> > otherwise contravene any of the laws and regulations of the
> > countries having jurisdiction over the User or the intended
> > distribution itself.

> First, IANAL and not a native speaker nor a regular debian-legal reader,
> but I can't see what is exactly nonfree in this piece of licence. In my
> reading it just says,

Apart from the "you must follow the law" clause, it also only allows
derivates that are "distributed substantially in the same form as set
out herein".  That is a restriction on modification, which fails the
DFSG.

-- 
Henning Makholm"Detta, sade de, vore rena sanningen;
 ty de kunde tala sanning lika väl som någon
 annan, när de bara visste vad det tjänade til."

Re: rename linux-kernel-headers to system-headers

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Graham Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 09:37:16PM +0100, Otto Wyss wrote:
> > > On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 10:45:32AM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 07:55:03PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > What not rename linux-kernel-headers to simple system-headers-linux?
> > > > > This will prevent confused users (or: lazy to read the description 
> > > > > users)
> > > > > from asking this again and again.
> > > > 
> > > > system-headers-linux is a bit vague and without knowing could be
> > > > associated with the kernel just as strongly as with libc.
> > > > 
> > > > How about libc-linux-headers?
> > > 
> > > I second that, or perhaps libc6-linux-headers.
> > 
> > If the package would have been named "libc6-linux-headers" to show its
> > strong relationship with libc6 I had never started this thread. I'm not
> > a fan of renaming but in this case IMO it seems to be appropriate.
> 
> But then the package would have to be changed for a new SONAME. And I
> don't see any benefits of using libc6-linux-headers, as opposed to
> libc-linux-headers.
> 
> -- 
> gram

We also have libc6.1 on several archs.

How about glibc-linux-headers. glibc is the source package. It won't
be confused with other libcs like uclibc and it doesn't change accross
archs or when the soname changes.

MfG
Goswin

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Scott James Remnant]

On Fri, 2003-11-14 at 09:41, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:09:39PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> 
> > And what about the other people that Like James? Can they too
> >  not be wrong?
> 
> There must be something true in this too: for example he did something that
> people liked a lot (it's all but hard to figure what).
> 
Yup, he does.  He manages to somehow survive a very difficult set of
jobs while retaining our repsect and being one of the few people most of
us would trust to do them.

Plus he's wuverly and stuff.

Scott
-- 
Have you ever, ever felt like this?
Had strange things happen?  Are you going round the twist?



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Bug#219582: ITP: linux -- Linux 2.4 kernel

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 11:39:38AM +1100, Brian May wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 08:13:18PM +0100, Santiago Vila wrote:
> > > At least, the ability to do
> > > 
> > > apt-get source linux
> > > 
> > > as it should always have been.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I think it's time we put an end to this euphemism called "the kernel"
> > > and start calling it by its proper name (if we refer to Linux, that is).
> > 
> > apt-get source kernel-source-2.4.22
> 
> Which means: "download the source of the source of the kernel".

apt-get install kernel-tree-2.4(.22)

MfG
Gosiwn

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Steve Kowalik]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 05:00:37AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote:
> Do we want to talk about keyring?
> 
I'm glad you want to. I lost my GPG key a few days ago due to a RAID 
disaster, and got Herbert Xu to send a message to keyring-maint on my 
behalf (as outlined in the Replacing Keys document http://keyring.debian.org/replacing_keys.html>, and recieved a reply from 
James in about 12 hours, saying that my new key was in keyring.

I have nothing but praise for James, and the work he does for Debian.

Cheers,
-- 
Steve
I've lost my sig!

Re: postgresql-dev dependence

[Stephen Frost]

* Mickael Profeta ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> But should I add it to Build-Depends
> should I submit a bug to postgresql-dev to depend on 
> postgresql-client (which is the case in mysql for example)
> is it an upstream bug to test pg_config in the configure script

That's a bug that should be fixed in the postgresql packaging I believe.

Stephen


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Bug#220358: ITP: mecab-ipadic -- IPA dictionary compiled for Mecab

[Tim Dijkstra]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:44:46 +0200
David Starner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > First, IANAL and not a native speaker nor a regular debian-legal
> > reader, but I can't see what is exactly nonfree in this piece of
> > licence. In my reading it just says,
> > 
> > 1) Do what you want with it
> > 2) Keep a NO WARRANTY section in the licence 
> > 3) Don't do any illegal stuff
> 
> The last is the killer; say you're a suspected dissident that's
> prohibited from using a computer or computing software, making your
> copying of the software illegal. Thus after using this software send
> an email to journalists revealing the ongoing genocide of your people,
> and escaping to the free world, you are now open to civil prosecution
> for copyright violation. It discriminates against classes of users and
> thus violates the DFSG.

Living in a quitte civilised country (well they're doing their best to
change it, last week our prime minister was saying people really
shouldn't make jokes about the royal family), I didn't think of that
one...

grts Tim

Re: Bug#220358: ITP: mecab-ipadic -- IPA dictionary compiled for Mecab

[Tim Dijkstra]

On 14 Nov 2003 13:18:02 +0100
Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Scripsit Tim Dijkstra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > TSUCHIYA Masatoshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > > Each User may also freely distribute the Program, whether in
> > > its original form or modified, to any third party or parties,
> > > PROVIDED that the provisions of Section 3 ("NO WARRANTY") will
> > > ALWAYS appear on, or be attached to, the Program, which is
> > > distributed substantially in the same form as set out herein
> > > and that such intended distribution, if actually made, will
> > > neither violate or otherwise contravene any of the laws and
> > > regulations of the countries having jurisdiction over the User
> > > or the intended distribution itself.
> 
> > First, IANAL and not a native speaker nor a regular debian-legal
> > reader, but I can't see what is exactly nonfree in this piece of
> > licence. In my reading it just says,
> 
> Apart from the "you must follow the law" clause, it also only allows
> derivates that are "distributed substantially in the same form as set
> out herein".  That is a restriction on modification, which fails the
> DFSG.

Which indeed seems a restriction, but a little vague one, especially as
the first two lines read: 'Each User may also freely distribute the
Program, whether in its original form or modified, to any third party or
parties'.

But I think I agree now that the 'follow the law' stuff is a
freedom-killer in it self.

grts Tim

Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance

[Wouter Verhelst]

Op vr 14-11-2003, om 11:34 schreef Ingo Juergensmann:
[...]
> As a result and a sort of protest, I´ll stopped my m68k buildd, because I
> don´t know m68k that much to be of any help for this port anymore. Therefore
> my m68k isn´t needed anymore as my offered mips machine isn´t needed for the
> mips port or the Debian project at all.

Ingo,

I can understand why you're upset, but please do try not to make one
port suffer for the actions of the people responsible for another port.
The help arrakis has provided over the years has always been
appreciated, and will be for as long as you provide the access; it would
be a shame if this would be discontinued because of a difference in
opinion you have with Ryan regarding the way autobuilding for the mips
architecture should be handled.

Hoping you'll reconsider this,

-- 
Wouter Verhelst
Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org
Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org
If you're running Microsoft Windows, either scan your computer on
viruses, or stop wasting my bandwith and remove me from your
addressbook. *now*.


signature.asc
Description: Dit berichtdeel is digitaal ondertekend

Re: SPI Board Candidates Debate

[Bdale Garbee]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

"Vince Mulhollon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I can't participate in the debate at that time and date.  Will a log of
> the debate be available via http and if so, where?

Yes, I'm sure a log of the debate will be made available online after the
event.  I'm not sure where it will be posted, and so I promise that we will
post an announcement with URL to debian-devel-announce and spi-announce as
soon as the log becomes available online.

Bdale
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 

iD8DBQE/tODcZKfAp/LPAagRAnlcAJ9yAR8lyx/mTBCqjuiP4lQwUu31yQCaAiZX
Jr5ZWpoUHPk96MuNjrQks8Q=
=/pi8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: gimp1.2: gimp package suggest non-free software

[Eike Sauer]

Ben Burton schrieb:
> The difference is probably that men have somewhat less of a history of
> being evaluated this way when people aren't joking.

Not sure.
Perhaps, men just recently found out that they are evaluated. *g*

Ciao,
Eike (m)

Re: ITO several packages

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Sebastien J. Gross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-11-14 00:08]:
> AFAIK cvs-conf had been odopted.

He told me in private mail that he doesn't have the time for it.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-11-14 05:30]:
> I understand, but they happen, and i think this to be a not-so-open
> point in our open structure.

Yes, that's true but there might be a point in that.  I also don't
have access to the discussions or archives of the security team, the
system admins, etc.  And perhaps that's because they discuss sensitive
information from time to time?

In fact, I also don't see what people send to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  And
since you surely use your Debian address only for Debian, it should be
handled in a transparent fashion?  After all, you might become
inactive and not every communication might be achieved in your bug
reports.

> Indeed there is the issues about rejection being public, which
> should be also covered.

Yes, this is true.  We never really reached a conclusion on this, I
think.

> and open: people on some keypoints in Debian structure do not have
> the same treatment.

Yes, it's a shame, but it's just a fact of life that not everything
can be 100% open.  As to the DAM discussion being available to
everyone, I refer you to thread on -private a few weeks ago.  I'm sure
some people would disagree with their personal information being
posted all around.

> Of course if the do not reply mails i would not find anything, but
> being subscribed i could read directly what happen, or be aware of
> the fact that nothing happens.

In the case of keyring and DAM in the past, we were well aware that
nothing happened even without seeing the archives. ;-)  Gladly, the
situation has changed.

Look, I'm not against being transparent; not at all.  I try to be very
open and approachable.  But in some cases it just doesn't make sense.
And I don't see the problem here; if you see a _concrete_ problem,
please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  However, afact both keyring and DAM seem to
be running fairly smoothly at the moment.

> Trust is not a transitive property: i trusted you as DPL, this does

FWIW, I'm not speaking as DPL at the moment; I use [EMAIL PROTECTED] in From:
to indicate when I do.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: ITO several packages

[Sebastien J. Gross]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:35:39AM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> * Sebastien J. Gross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-11-14 00:08]:
> > AFAIK cvs-conf had been odopted.
> 
> He told me in private mail that he doesn't have the time for it.

Ok due to its unconformity to many standards you can remove it too.

-- 
Sebastien J. Gross|   Debian GNU/Linux 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]|  http://www.debian.org
GPG: 1024g/AF0DDC9A AB35 1FFB 1268 56C0 452B  302E 2A25 8421 53BB A490

六合精华

[专业图库]

如你对六合彩兴趣[深圳专业图库总站]
http://www.13778.com中的PDF格式图库;
不会让你空手而回的
联系我QQ：101028153
只要成为PDF格式图库中的会员后
告诉我你的用户名，等我核实后
我会在19：40分给你特码

Bug#220779: ITP: zope-epoz -- Cross-browser-wysiwyg-editor for Zope

[Andreas Tille]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: zope-epoz
  Version : 0.6.0
  Upstream Author : Maik Jablonski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.zope.org/Members/mjablonski/Epoz
* License : (GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT/X, etc.)
  Description : Zope Public License (ZPL) Version 2.0

(I'm sorry I will I will not quote this license here over and over.
 IMHO this should be put under /usr/share/common-licenses because it
 is common for a lot of packages. But unfortunately there was no
 agreement so far.  Just Google for the string above or support my
 idea of making licenses "common" if the *are* common for a reasonable
 amount of Debian packages.)

Long description:

 Epoz allows you to edit Zope- or Plone-objects with a wysiwyg-editor.
 No plugins are required. You only have to use a recent browser
 (IE >= 5.5, Mozilla >= 1.3.1, Netscape >= 7.1) that supports
 Rich-Text-controls (called Midas for Mozilla).
 .
 Homepage: http://www.zope.org/Members/mjablonski/Epoz


-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux wr-linux02 2.4.20 #1 Don Mär 27 09:46:16 CET 2003 i686
Locale: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ignored: LC_ALL set to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED])

adam@debian.org ?

[Samuele Giovanni Tonon]

anyone has information regards him ?
i'm trying to contact him but he's not replying to me.

thank
Samuele 

-- 
While various networks have become deeply rooted, and thoughts have been sent
out as light and electrons in a singular direction, this era has yet to 
digitize/computerize to the degree necessary for individuals to become 
a singular complex entity.
  KOUKAKU KIDOUTAI Stand Alone Complex

RFA: A lot of packages

[Simon Richter]

Hi,

I'm totally swamped in work even though I haven't started learning for
the next round of exams yet, so I'd like to give away my packages:

 - amap
 - pingus
 - uptimed (sponsor needed for Daniel Gubser, who helped out)
 - python-imaging(*)

   Simon

(*) Gerhard HÃâring expressed interest, but I have no definitive word.

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: 040E B5F7 84F1 4FBC CEAD  ADC6 18A0 CC8D 5706 A4B4


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Bug#220780: ITP: zope-zms -- Content management for science, technology and medicine

[Andreas Tille]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: zope-zms
  Version : 2.0.116
  Upstream Author : Dr. Frank Hoffmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and others
* URL : http://www.zms-publishing.com/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/zmspublishing/
* License : GPL
  Description : Content management for science, technology and medicine

This package has to go to contrib because some functionality depends from
jdk1.1.


 ZMS is a unique open source content management solution: perfectly suitable
 for hospitals, research institutions, NGOs and small to medium-size
 international companies.
 
 The ZMS concept is based on a consulting approach for the rational 
 publishing on the internet: the professional user is able to pursue 
 a consequently efficiency oriented producing base with the ZMS software 
 and can hereby also achieve important economic results in the so-called 
 low budget area. The modulation possibilities of the ZMS components and 
 the experienced producing steps makes out of ZMS an incomparable fast tool. 


-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux wr-linux02 2.4.20 #1 Don Mär 27 09:46:16 CET 2003 i686
Locale: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ignored: LC_ALL set to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED])

Re: Bug#155583: radiusd-freeradius history and future

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:16:59PM -0500, Sam Hartman wrote:

> > "Matt" == Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Matt> I think a single "Will you be using NIS?" question would be
> Matt> justified; this could provide defaults for md5 vs. crypt
> Matt> passwords and setuid-ness of unix_chkpwd, and so those
> Matt> questions could be suppressed by default.
> 
> I disagree.  Debian is sufficiently hard to install that developers of
> security software I've asked to install it have been frustrated to the
> point of not using it by the number of questions.  I believe adding
> questions about NIS would be inappropriate.

The method I described, if implemented, would not change the number of
questions asked in a default install.  The NIS question would essentially
replace the md5 question, which would remain at default unless the user asks
to see every single question.

> I'd rather see a solution where we have some nis support package that
> makes unix_chkpwd setuid root when that support package is installed.

This would be even better.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: RFA: A lot of packages

[Andrés Roldán]

I will take amap if no one disagrees.

Simon Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hi,
>
> I'm totally swamped in work even though I haven't started learning for
> the next round of exams yet, so I'd like to give away my packages:
>
>  - amap
>  - pingus
>  - uptimed (sponsor needed for Daniel Gubser, who helped out)
>  - python-imaging(*)
>
>Simon
>
> (*) Gerhard Häring expressed interest, but I have no definitive word.
>
> -- 
> GPG Fingerprint: 040E B5F7 84F1 4FBC CEAD  ADC6 18A0 CC8D 5706 A4B4

-- 
Andres Roldan

Fluidsignal Group   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The Debian Project  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GIGAX   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPG Key-ID  0xB29396EB  
Home Page   http://people.fluidsignal.com/~aroldan


pgpp5hQ4Rm4rR.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: adam@debian.org ?

[Fabio Massimo Di Nitto]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Samuele Giovanni Tonon wrote:

> anyone has information regards him ?

As far as I know he is still alive. I saw him a few days ago in irc.

Fabio

-- 
Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
"We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues

http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:48:40AM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> Yes, this is true.  We never really reached a conclusion on this, I
> think.

This might be moved to -newmaint.

[...]
> Yes, it's a shame, but it's just a fact of life that not everything
> can be 100% open.  As to the DAM discussion being available to
[...]
Ok, i see the point of private stuff.

> In the case of keyring and DAM in the past, we were well aware that
> nothing happened even without seeing the archives. ;-)  Gladly, the
> situation has changed.
[...]
> Look, I'm not against being transparent; not at all.  I try to be very
> open and approachable.  But in some cases it just doesn't make sense.

Let's be positive thinking: i like it. This mean that we suppose anything to go
on in the best way in the future, we will never face again these problems with
DAM or keyring or whatever internal Debian structure because things
changed. This makes any issues here irrilevant. Thinking to a solution for a
100% transparent structure would be a waste of time. We are supposed to accept
this for paceful living, because we trust the good changes or perheps
because delegates are choosen from the DPL (person which we are supposed to
trust).

I think it won't stand for long. In any case, since structure is not so
open and it's not worth of changing, complains about it should not be sent on
-devel, because we can't do anything in almost all the cases (not to mention
-private which can't be reached by anyone)...

> And I don't see the problem here; if you see a _concrete_ problem,
> please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

And here i understand that we should redirect any attempt to flame^Wcomplain
any one in Debian key-points to [EMAIL PROTECTED], assuming people to think 
they have
_concrete_ problems (really reasonable; i suppose it already happened in some
way).
"This is OT here. If you think you have a problem with Debian structure, you
should speak with [EMAIL PROTECTED]" will cut any thread short. I supose DPL 
should
not complain about this, because, after all, he choosed them.

I sow a problem, but i was told to live with it: I'll remember it, and go on.

> > Trust is not a transitive property: i trusted you as DPL, this does
> 
> FWIW, I'm not speaking as DPL at the moment; I use [EMAIL PROTECTED] in From:
> to indicate when I do.

Oh, well, sorry. I did not ment to write to you as the DPL, but you know... it
happens that you are :)
I can rewrite my sentence as "I trust the DPL, this...", and it would have the
same meaning.

ciao,
-- 
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis  | Elegant or ugly code as well
aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have
Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''.   | something in common: they
local LANG="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" | don't depend on the 
language.

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:28:16AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:

> How long did Eray wait for formal rejection? Did he receive regular
> updates about the state of affairs?

I don't know what Eray received via private mail, but he certainly kept the
rest of debian-devel up-to-date on the process by complaining loudly every
other day.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: gimp1.2: gimp package suggest non-free software

[Adam Heath]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>   The fact that the tool authors have not seen fit to implement
>  some functionality has nothing to do with policy (despite what you
>  may think, policy is not dpkg documentation).

Policy is also not something that should document something that isn't
implemented(by your own admission).

And people reading fields is not a valid counter-argument.  People can read
*any* field, so you could argue that policy can document *any* field.

[OT] Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Adam Heath]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Martin Michlmayr wrote:

> Look, I'm not against being transparent; not at all.  I try to be very
> open and approachable.  But in some cases it just doesn't make sense.

Now, why'd you have to go and mention Chewbacca?

Re: adam@debian.org ?

[Adam Heath]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Samuele Giovanni Tonon wrote:
>
> > anyone has information regards him ?
>
> As far as I know he is still alive. I saw him a few days ago in irc.

Me, or someone else(my first name is Adam).

Re: gimp1.2: gimp package suggest non-free software

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:06:39 -0600 (CST), Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> The fact that the tool authors have not seen fit to implement some
>> functionality has nothing to do with policy (despite what you may
>> think, policy is not dpkg documentation).

> Policy is also not something that should document something that
> isn't implemented(by your own admission).

The fallacy here is the assumption that policy defines
 something that needs be implemented.  Policy defines how a
 relationship that really exists can be documented in the Packages
 files.  What behaviour exactly does policy mandate that is not
 implemented?

> And people reading fields is not a valid counter-argument.  People
> can read *any* field, so you could argue that policy can document
> *any* field.

It sure can. As long as there is no requirement in policy that
 the packaging system implement any particular behaviour, the
 implement before policy thang don't apply.

manoj

-- 
"The arts equally have distinct departments, and unless photography
has its own possibilities of expression, separate from those of the
other arts, it is merely a process, not an art." Alfred Stieglitz,
circa 1895, about the Romantic-Impressionist school of photography
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Bug#220795: ITP: inkscape -- SVG-based graphics editor

[Wolfram Quester]

Package: wnpp
Version: N/A; reported 2003-11-14
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: inkscape
  Version : 0.35
  Upstream Author : Ted Gould 
Bryce Harrington 
Bulia Byak
and others
* URL : http://inkscape.sourceforge.net/
* License : GPL
  Description : SVG-based graphics editor

Inkscape seeks to become a full featured open source SVG editor.
Derived from the highly popular Sodipodi codebase, Inkscape strives to
build full XML, SVG, and CSS2 compliance, convert the codebase from
C/Gtk to C++/Gtkmm, emphasizes a lightweight core with powerful features
added through an extension mechanism, and promotes friendly, open,
community-oriented development processes.

Features include alpha blending, node editing, svg-to-png export, and
more. We aim for capabilities similar to Illustrator, CorelDraw, Visio,
etc.

I'd like to package the program described above. Since I'm no debian
developer yet, Guido Günter has acknowledged to sponsor me.

Best regards,

Wolfi


-- System Information
Debian Release: 3.0
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux merry 2.2.25clients-scanner #1 Thu Jul 24 14:54:35 CEST 2003 i686
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8


pgpXhSaiF8Nf8.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bug#155583: radiusd-freeradius history and future

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:37:45AM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:16:59PM -0500, Sam Hartman wrote:

> > > "Matt" == Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > Matt> I think a single "Will you be using NIS?" question would be
> > Matt> justified; this could provide defaults for md5 vs. crypt
> > Matt> passwords and setuid-ness of unix_chkpwd, and so those
> > Matt> questions could be suppressed by default.

> > I disagree.  Debian is sufficiently hard to install that developers of
> > security software I've asked to install it have been frustrated to the
> > point of not using it by the number of questions.  I believe adding
> > questions about NIS would be inappropriate.

> The method I described, if implemented, would not change the number of
> questions asked in a default install.  The NIS question would essentially
> replace the md5 question, which would remain at default unless the user asks
> to see every single question.

Oh, but the md5 question was already one too many, which is why it's
already been removed for sarge. :)

> > I'd rather see a solution where we have some nis support package that
> > makes unix_chkpwd setuid root when that support package is installed.

> This would be even better.

Yes, that doesn't sound like a bad solution.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


pgpWhJguu82kd.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Yelp HTML generation (#177167)

[Alexander Winston]

On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 19:35, Aaron Isotton wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> [This was CC'd to Christian Marillat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> but I typed
> 'debain' instead of 'debian' into the to field.]
> 
> As far as I understand the Gnome help system is supposed to work like
> this:
> 
> - packages ship the documentation only in XML format
> - as conversion to HTML/whatever is slow, the XML gets converted to the
> appropriate formats on package installation.
> - yelp displays the pregenerated HTML, and only generates it 'on the
> fly' when it is not available/outdated.
> 
> The problem is that yelp stores the generated HTML in the same directory
> as the XML data is, i.e. in /usr/doc.  This is of course the wrong place
> for generated data, which should go into /var/cache.
> 
> Because of that the HTML pregeneration is disabled in Debian, and this
> causes yelp to be close to unusable (I experienced waiting times of up
> to 1 minute), since the HTML needs to be generated *every time*.
> 
> Christian Marillat (the Debian yelp maintainer) has tagged the bug
> #177167 as 'wontfix' and forwarded it to [0]; as far as I can see,
> neither him nor the Gnome developers seem to be very keen to fix the
> bug.
> 
> [0] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103777
> 
> As I am very annoyed by the bug, I am looking into fixing it.  But I
> need some information about the whole gnome help generation process.
> 
> - what kind of documents are currenty generated from the XML sources? 
> HTML? PDF? PS? Others?  Are they/should they all be cached?
> 
> - what kind of structure should /var/cache/yelp have?
> 
> - how should the cache be updated? by root running yelp-pregenerate, or
> by yelp 'on first request'?  If yelp must be able to write to the cache,
> how should it do so?  Via setuid or via group permissions (like the man
> cache).
> 
> - has any of this already been done?  Is somebody working on it?

The upcoming release of Yelp features a brand-new collection of XSLT
style sheets that are much faster than Norm's. Because of this, the
yelp-pregenerate program will be taken out of the build (unless someone
is willing to work more on it, that is), and the caching you mentioned
is probably unnecessary.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Bug#219163: ITP: synaptic-touchpad -- Synaptics TouchPad driver for XFree86

[Branden Robinson]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:07:41AM +1100, Daniel Stone wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 01:58:44PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> > That doesn't mean it won't happen, but it should be rare enough that an
> > ad-hoc approach will work.
> 
> Right, but I'm just saying that you'd then have to have
> xfree86-driver-synaptics-input and xfree86-driver-synaptics-graphics, or
> whatever ... a more realistic example is Intel, who seem to be enjoying
> their current i8??G hegemony. Ad-hoc should still, as you say, work.

Yup.  I'm going to gamble that stupidity doesn't prevail.

A risky gamble.  :)

But the worst that can happen is that we end up with packages named as
you indicated:

xfree86-driver-intel-input
xfree86-driver-intel-display

In practice, different modules are used not just for display drivers,
but for different chipset families.

Anyway, have we beat this horse enough?  :)

-- 
G. Branden Robinson| Good judgement comes from
Debian GNU/Linux   | experience; experience comes from
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | bad judgement.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Fred Brooks


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Changes in t1lib.

[Branden Robinson]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:23:53PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 08:29:29PM +0100, Artur R. Czechowski wrote:
[...]
> > 1. I left package with 1.3.1 version with names: t1lib1, t1lib-dev,
> >t1lib-doc, t1lib1-bin. Version 5.0.0 is uploaded with names: libt1-5,
> >libt1-dev, libt1-doc, t1lib-bin.
> > 2. Dependant packages are modified and recompiled to use v5.0.0
> > 3. 1.3.1 is removed, we left with libt1-5, libt1-dev, libt1-doc and
> >t1lib-bin, for users convenience empty t1lib-dev and t1lib-doc with
> >dependencies only will be added.
[...]
> 2. Package t1lib 5.0.0 as source package t1lib, providing libt1-5,
>libt1-dev, libt1-doc, and libt1-bin (or t1lib-bin -- Policy doesn't
>suggest that you name this last item one way or the other).
[...]
> That's one way to go about this that should not require any
> pseudopackages.

Sorry, I oversold my proposal with that last statement.

Under my proposal you wouldn't need a pseudopackage for t1lib1, but you
would for:

t1lib-dev (Depends: libt1-dev)
t1lib-doc (Depends: libt1-doc)

and, if you choose to rename it:

t1lib-bin (Depends: libt1-bin)

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|   Yesterday upon the stair,
Debian GNU/Linux   |   I met a man who wasn't there.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |   He wasn't there again today,
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |   I think he's from the CIA.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Branden Robinson]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:14:18AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> > No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on
> > debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day
> > from the new fodder just aren't enough!
> 
> Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative
> feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various
> reasons. There must be somthing true in it,

That's ridiculous.  There's nothing wrong with criticizing James for
what he actually does, or fails to do, but widespread grumbling proves
nothing in and of itself.  No, there need not be anything true in it.

If you hang around the right political conservatives in the U.S., you'll
hear widespread grumbling (and worse), that failure to ram the Ten
Commandments down everyone's throat, and engage in convocational prayers
to the Christian God at every gathering of more than 3 people will
inexorably lead to the destruction of Western Civilization.  (Robert
Bork called it "slouching towards Gamorrah", and wrote a book with that
title spewing this sort of drivel).

But these political conservatives, as in so many other things, are full
of shit.

Therefore, widespread grumbling doesn't make something true.  At best it
means the subject deserves closer scrutiny to see what people are really
grumbling about, and why.

If you don't like the way someone is doing something, have the decency
to cite specific examples.  If they're really making a lot of mistakes,
this should not require much time to research.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|   Psychology is really biology.
Debian GNU/Linux   |   Biology is really chemistry.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |   Chemistry is really physics.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |   Physics is really math.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Bug#220358: ITP: mecab-ipadic -- IPA dictionary compiled for Mecab

[Branden Robinson]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 02:17:53PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
> Living in a quitte civilised country (well they're doing their best to
> change it, last week our prime minister was saying people really
> shouldn't make jokes about the royal family)

Quite.  People who joke about the British monarchy need to just get
stuffed.

And I hear the Prince of Wales will be quite happy to help them do so...

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|For every credibility gap, there is
Debian GNU/Linux   |a gullibility fill.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- Richard Clopton
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Andreas Barth]

* Matt Zimmerman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [031114 17:55]:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:28:16AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:

> > How long did Eray wait for formal rejection? Did he receive regular
> > updates about the state of affairs?
 
> I don't know what Eray received via private mail, but he certainly kept the
> rest of debian-devel up-to-date on the process by complaining loudly every
> other day.

>From the mails I received from Eray, he had till the very last moment
the impression that he'll be accepted if he just find five sponsors
(and that the debian cabal always pissed of the fifth). However, this
was Eray, so I don't know whether he realised what was written to him. ;)

And: Eray is _the_ example of a rejection where I would've liked to be
informed of it. (Though it was not necessary, because Eray did that
himself after the rejection - but in some cases it could happen to
someone with at least some clue. And I don't really see why it is more
worse to publish a rejection by DAM, than those by the AM. The last
ones _are_ published at the moment.)


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C

Anyone know anything about 3dwm?

[Andrew Pollock]

Hi,

I'm trying to prepare a QA upload of the 3dwm source package, and close a 
few of the trivial bugs assigned to it (mainly binary package descriptions 
being shite).

Unfortunately the upstream website appears to be down so I can't try and 
learn anything much about the software right now. I was wondering if 
anyone here is actually using the software and might be able to help me 
with decent descriptions for:

libpolhem-dev
libnobel-dev
libzorn-dev
libcelsius-dev
libsolid-dev
libgarbo-dev
3dwm-geoclient
3dwm-pickclient
3dwm-server

Thanks,

Andrew


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Changes in t1lib.

[Artur R. Czechowski]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:23:53PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> I suggest the following:
[cut]
Looks good. Ftpmasters probably would kill me, because t1lib5 is uploaded
to experimental, but it looks really better than my schedule. If there will
be no objection from ftpmaster I will follow your scenario. And for now
I set dummy serious bug for t1lib 1.3.1 for not migrating it to testing.
I do not like to mess with dependencies and pseudopackages in sarge.

Cheers
Artur
-- 
Dekolektywizacja stosunków zarządzanie-praca, którą implikuje deregulacja,
oddziaływać bedzie dysfunkcyjnie
  /Raport Międzynarodowego Biura Pracy z 1995 roku/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Bug#155583: radiusd-freeradius history and future

[Andreas Metzler]

Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:37:45AM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
[...]
>> > I'd rather see a solution where we have some nis support package that
>> > makes unix_chkpwd setuid root when that support package is installed.

>> This would be even better.

> Yes, that doesn't sound like a bad solution.

The package-name is nis, but afaict the only possible solutions for
this would reqire nis to use dpkg-statoveride, whis is imho ugly.
 cu andreas

Re: Changes in t1lib.

[Andreas Metzler]

Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:23:53PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 08:29:29PM +0100, Artur R. Czechowski wrote:
> [...]
>> > 1. I left package with 1.3.1 version with names: t1lib1, t1lib-dev,
>> >t1lib-doc, t1lib1-bin. Version 5.0.0 is uploaded with names: libt1-5,
>> >libt1-dev, libt1-doc, t1lib-bin.
>> > 2. Dependant packages are modified and recompiled to use v5.0.0
>> > 3. 1.3.1 is removed, we left with libt1-5, libt1-dev, libt1-doc and
>> >t1lib-bin, for users convenience empty t1lib-dev and t1lib-doc with
>> >dependencies only will be added.
> [...]
>> 2. Package t1lib 5.0.0 as source package t1lib, providing libt1-5,
>>libt1-dev, libt1-doc, and libt1-bin (or t1lib-bin -- Policy doesn't
>>suggest that you name this last item one way or the other).
> [...]
>> That's one way to go about this that should not require any
>> pseudopackages.

> Sorry, I oversold my proposal with that last statement.

> Under my proposal you wouldn't need a pseudopackage for t1lib1, but you
> would for:

> t1lib-dev (Depends: libt1-dev)
> t1lib-doc (Depends: libt1-doc)
[...]

As t1lib-dev (1.3.1) and libt1-dev (5.0.0) are not API compatible I'd
consider that a pseudo-package useless or even unwelcome. (You try to
compile sarge sources on sid in 12 months, all your build-dependencies
are installed, as you have got the t1lib-dev pseudopackage, however
the software won't compile, as it does not support the 5.0.0 API.)
cu andreas
-- 
Hey, da ist ein Ballonautomat auf der Toilette!
Unofficial _Debian-packages_ of latest unstable _tin_
http://www.logic.univie.ac.at/~ametzler/debian/tin-snapshot/

Bug#220838: ITP: verbiste -- a french conjugation system

[Sebastien Bacher]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: verbiste
  Version : 0.1.7
  Upstream Author : Pierre Sarrazin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL or Web page : http://sarrazip.com/dev/verbiste.html
* License : GPL
  Description : a french conjugation system
 .
 It contains a C++ library, two programs that can be run from the command line 
 or from another program, and a GNOME applet. This applet shows a text field in 
 the GNOME Panel where the user can enter a conjugated verb and obtain its 
 complete conjugation. The knowledge base is represented in XML and contains 
 over 6800 verbs

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Andrew Suffield]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 12:09:43PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> I think that we have more of a problem of people being afraid to contribute 
> because of the fear of undue criticism or rejection than we have of unworthy 
> people joining.
> 
> The number of people who have been rejected is small.  The number of people 
> who are good coders who could contribute to Debian if they chose is much 
> larger.

The number of people who are useless idiots is several orders of
magnitude larger still. Our current process is moderately effective at
keeping most of them out.

We don't have much of a problem with these people joining *because*
our process is the way it is. It is flawed to suggest that this means
we wouldn't have one if it were easier.

-- 
  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
 : :' :  http://www.debian.org/ |
 `. `'  |
   `- -><-  |


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago

[Andrew Suffield]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 03:41:14AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote:
> > > There must be somthing true in it,
> > 
> > I think you really need to examine your understanding of
> >  causation.  Lots of people hold a view, so it must be true?
> 
> I might have translated an Italian expression in english (this might not have 
> the
> same meaning), but i meant that there maust be something in the entire issue
> that is true/matter of fact/source of the issue. I did not ment that the
> entire issue is true. If people don't like James as DAM, i did not meant that 
> James
> is "bad", but somthing bad happened, while he was representing Debian. When
> something like that happen i (we?) can't for sure defend or blame James,
> because one is more driven by the good things heared, the other is driven by
> people saying bad things.

It is invalid to go from:

"People object to the way the DAM does things"

to:

"People don't like James as DAM"

without any evidence or rationale that their objections are related to
him specifically.

That aside, I would be very worried if there weren't any people
objecting to the DAM. That would indicate he's letting people get away
with too much. This means it's useless as a measure of problems.

So, I find both your argument and your interpretation of its
conclusion to be entirely without merit.

-- 
  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
 : :' :  http://www.debian.org/ |
 `. `'  |
   `- -><-  |


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: apt-get problems

[Russell Coker]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:54, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:59, Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Something in your login chain is setting SIGCHLD to ignore.  Check your
> > shell, terminal, etc.
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> I am using pam 0.77 that I compiled myself (Debian is still at 0.76).  0.77
> changes the code for running unix_chkpwd to set SIGCHLD to ignore, it sets
> it back again later but there seems to be a bug in this code.

I've attached a patch from Red Hat to solve this pam bug, it will need to be 
included when we get Debian packages of pam 0.77.
Specifying SIG_IGN for SIGCHLD (which by default, is ignored) is not the same
as specifying SIG_DFL.  See the NOTES section of wait(2) for the skinny on this.

--- Linux-PAM-0.77/modules/pam_unix/support.c	2003-07-09 00:15:29.0 -0400
+++ Linux-PAM-0.77/modules/pam_unix/support.c	2003-07-09 00:15:41.0 -0400
@@ -597,7 +597,7 @@
 	 * The "noreap" module argument is provided so that the admin can
 	 * override this behavior.
 	 */
-	sighandler = signal(SIGCHLD, SIG_IGN);
+	sighandler = signal(SIGCHLD, SIG_DFL);
 }
 
 /* fork */

Re: Anyone know anything about 3dwm?

[Sam Hocevar]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2003, Andrew Pollock wrote:

> I'm trying to prepare a QA upload of the 3dwm source package, and close a 
> few of the trivial bugs assigned to it (mainly binary package descriptions 
> being shite).

   Yes, they all suck pretty much. Here are my suggestions:

Package: libcelsius
Description: operating system abstraction library for 3Dwm
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This is libcelcius, 3Dwm's low-level interface library. It provides an
 abstraction layer for details of the underlying operating system such as
 threads management, mutex handling, synchronization, shared memory and
 dynamically linked libraries.
 .
 This package provides the runtime shared library for libcelcius.

Package: libgarbo
Description: windowing systems compatibility library for 3Dwm
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This is libgarbo, 3Dwm's backwards compatibility library for existing
 windowing systems. It provides an abstraction layer for conventional
 systems such as X11, Windows and Mac OS, as long as they are capable of
 running locally on the same machine.
 .
 This package provides the runtime shared library for libgarbo.

Package: libnobel
Description: 3Dwm client library
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This is libnobel, the 3Dwm client library upon which all 3Dwm applications
 depend. It is a set of CORBA IDL interfaces that describe how to speak with
 3Dwm, thus allowing any language with CORBA bindings to be used to build
 3Dwm applications.
 .
 This package provides the runtime shared library for libnobel.

Package: libpolhem
Description: 3Dwm interface library to Nobel
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This is libpolhem, the Nobel client programming interface. It manages the
 3Dwm display and input hardware and acts as an extensible framework for
 pluggable modules that add functionalities to the system.
 .
 This package provides the runtime shared library for libpolhem.

Package: libzorn
Description: interface library to painting functions
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This is libzorn, the core of 3Dwm's graphic output functions. It provides
 basic painting functionalities as well as 3D widgets.
 .
 This package provides the runtime shared library for libzorn.

Package: libsolid
Description: solids trace library
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This is libsolid, a core 3Dwm library that provides structured data trees
 for the trace system.
 .
 This package provides the runtime shared library for libsolid.

Package: 3dwm-server
Description: 3Dwm display server
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This package contains the 3Dwm display server daemon.

Package: 3dwm-geoclient
Description: 3Dwm geometry client example
 3Dwm is the Three-Dimensional Workspace Manager. It defines a full user
 environment with support for three-dimensional user interfaces using a 3D
 widget kit. It also provides some backwards compatiility with all the major
 existing windowing systems using VNC.
 .
 This is a very simple 3Dwm client that connects to the exported GeometryKit
 in the server, creates a Geometry, loads a 3D file from the local system and
 passes it to the 3Dwm server.
 .
 The 3Dwm server will happily render any geometry that is created, so
 running geoclient several times will add more geometries to the graphical
 output. Please note that you may need to zoom out (using the 'X' key) to
 see graphic

Autobuilders and nut package (#217980)

[Artur R. Czechowski]

Hello
This bug causes autobuilders stop work. It is possible to fix it ASAP?

http://buildd.debian.org/fetch.php?&pkg=lftp&ver=2.6.8-2&arch=hppa&stamp=1068852612&file=log&as=raw
http://buildd.debian.org/fetch.php?&pkg=rrdcollect&ver=0.2.1-5&arch=mipsel&stamp=1068836320&file=log&as=raw

Cheers
Artur
-- 
Nie wywołuj przerwań z BIOSu
/z pamiętnika administratora/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Bug#220856: ITP: convmv -- converts filenames from one encoding to another

[Raphael Zimmerer]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: convmv
  Version : 1.05
  Upstream Author : Bjoern Jacke 
* URL or Web page : http://j3e.de/linux/convmv/convmv-1.05.tar.gz
* License : GPL
  Description : converts filenames from one encoding to another

 convmv is meant to help convert a single filename, a directory tree and
 the contained files or a whole filesystem into a different encoding. It
 just converts the filenames, not the content of the files. A special
 feature of convmv is that it also takes care of symlinks, also converts
 the symlink target pointer in case the symlink target is being converted,
 too.
 .
 All this comes in very handy when one wants to switch over from old 8-bit
 locales to UTF-8 locales. It is also possible to convert directories to
 UTF-8 which are already partly UTF-8 encoded.

It's already packaged, I'am looking for a Sponsor :)

The package:
http://www.rdrz.de/~killekulla/debian/

Or via apt:
deb http://www.rdrz.de/~killekulla/debian ./
deb-src http://www.rdrz.de/~killekulla/debian ./

Re: Bug#155583: radiusd-freeradius history and future

[Sam Hartman]

> "Andreas" == Andreas Metzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Andreas> Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:37:45AM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
Andreas> [...]
>>> > I'd rather see a solution where we have some nis support
>>> package that > makes unix_chkpwd setuid root when that support
>>> package is installed.

>>> This would be even better.

>> Yes, that doesn't sound like a bad solution.

Andreas> The package-name is nis, but afaict the only possible
Andreas> solutions for this would reqire nis to use
Andreas> dpkg-statoveride, whis is imho ugly.  cu andreas

I think dpkg-statoverride is not too bad in this case.  I'll talk to
the nis package maintainer and see if that's acceptable.  If not, nis
could install some flag file.  The unix_chkpwd could start with root
privs, chuck for this flag file with a hard coded path and drop to
shadow if the flag file does not exist.

--Sam

Новая серия flash мультиков - Масяня отдыхает! rUIpb

[Chan H. Conventions]

Зайдя по этой ссылке http://217.106.225.141/mult.html?rf=frlWL9 Вы можете 
просмотреть flash мультики, которые предлагает наш портал. 
Мульты обновляются регулярно - заходите еще!!!
 
P.S
Если есть желание сотрудничать с нами, т.е прислать свои работы ( естественно 
за вознаграждение), пишите администрации сайта.



2W0ZtyP

Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance

[Branden Robinson]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:34:41AM +0100, Ingo Juergensmann wrote:
> As some of you know the mips port has some problems keeping up.

Daniel Stone and I have been trying for months to get feedback regarding
xfree86 > 4.3.0-0pre1v1 on mips, and we are always met with stony
silence.

> Everything went well with that machine - until we directed the request to
> debian-admin to get wanna-build access for mips. The request was rejected
> with the following reasons (to my knowledge):
> - another machine is in the works

Which, of course, will never go down, suffer hardware failure, or have
its hosting site suffer a power outage or fire.

> - we don´t need your machine

And we never will; see above.

> - you don´t have any knowledge about mips, so the machine wouldn´t be of any
> help at all.

It's not like you're an experienced buildd admin, and it's vitally
important that people who aren't already experts at administrating mips
buildds not gain that expertise.

> As a result and a sort of protest, I´ll stopped my m68k buildd, because I
> don´t know m68k that much to be of any help for this port anymore. Therefore
> my m68k isn´t needed anymore as my offered mips machine isn´t needed for the
> mips port or the Debian project at all.

I'm not sure I agree with your decision, but I do think I understand
your frustration.

Can I ask why it is such a disaster to have an alternate or standby
buildd for the mips architecture?

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|Kissing girls is a goodness.  It is
Debian GNU/Linux   |a growing closer.  It beats the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |hell out of card games.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |-- Robert Heinlein


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature