Re: libraries being removed from the archive
Richard Braakman wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 10:08:04AM +0200, Jérôme Marant wrote:
> > > Hence the need for policy to dictate to the maintainer not to allow the
> > > package to be removed before all other packages have transitioned. It
> > > usually doesn't take much more work as long as the maintainer is even
> > > aware of what will happen.
> >
> > It is not policy problem, it is a common sense one!
>
> Common sense says otherwise :) You see, before we had katie and the
> testing scripts, such removal of orphan libraries was done manually.
> ("orphan" because they no longer had a source package that built them).
> Our experience was that packages that depended on them did not even start
> to get updated until after we removed the old library. As long as the
> old library was there, there was apparently no incentive for anyone
> to recompile.
>
> That's when we decided to just remove such libraries immediately,
> and just let unstable be broken for a while. With most libraries
> this works fine. There were a few libraries with so many dependencies
> that an "oldlibs" version was necessary -- ncurses was in that
> category, for example. But they were the exception, not the rule.
That's experience, not common sense.
Regards,
Joey
--
Long noun chains don't automatically imply security. -- Bruce Schneier
Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Artur R. Czechowski wrote: > I've found your bugreport: > http://bugs.debian.org/202869 > > I see no issue to not depending mutt on mail-transfer-agent. > > Mutt as is, is a software for reading, writing and sending emails. > And to provide a full functionality it needs a kind of transfer-agent. > > I am not convinced to only Recommend on mail-transfer-agent. I rather > tend to closing this wishitem or tag it as wontfix. I agree. The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail. Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality but a backup functionality. To be able to provide the main functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency. Joe Average User would most probably be pissed if he installed mutt but doesn't have an MTA and then tries to send mail. That would take us back into the old days of Slackware. Those of us who have a host that doesn't contain an MTA (and hence no cron) but want to have mutt installed, should use equivs to provide a fake MTA. Those usually also have the knowledge how to use equivs (or read the manual), so it's no problem for those. Regards, Joey -- Long noun chains don't automatically imply security. -- Bruce Schneier Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
This one time, at band camp, Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree. The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail. > Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality > but a backup functionality. To be able to provide the main > functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency. What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP? Morgon -- "Man is the only creature capable of hating itself" -- Governor of Japan in The End of Evangelion
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
>>bootlogd. >>Activating swap. >>fsck 1.35-WIP (01-Aug-2003) >>Running 0dns-down to make sure resolv.conf is ok...done. >>Please contribute if you find this software useful. >>DHCPDISCOVER on eth0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 5 >>Starting Xprint servers: Xprt. > >If the pause were after fsck and it was showing that it was >checking >the >disk that would let me know the machine is doing something. If the >pause is >after DHCPDISCOVER I can surmise that if the network isn't hooked up >then it >is waiting for a timeout there. I would go further. The first time I saw these messages I didn't know what DHCPDISCOVER or fsck meant. BUT I knew this: * If it hanged after "DHCPDISCOVER", I should look up DHCP on google to find out what went wrong * If it hanged after "fsck", I should look up fsck on google to find out what went wrong. Already useful information. Admittedly, I've seen some less than useful messages on boot (mostly overly generic messages where I couldn't figure out what part of the system could possibly be producing them). Still, most of the messages are really pretty good, if you know how to filter for the key words. -- Nathanael Nerode http://home.twcny.rr.com/nerode/neroden/fdl.html
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
* Alan Shutko | Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | | > Oh, look, someone else who CCs when it is obvious the person they're | > responding to is participating right here. | | Maybe you should stop whining and just set the Mail-Copies-To header, | which is generally respected by posters on Debian lists? Or perhaps the poster should know the policy on Debian lists which is _not_ to Cc unless explicitly requested. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
* Morgon Kanter | This one time, at band camp, Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | > I agree. The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail. | > Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality | > but a backup functionality. To be able to provide the main | > functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency. | | What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP? Not without a patch, which afaik, isn't in the mutt in Debian. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:58:17AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote: > Kalle Kivimaa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Roland Mas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > with. The MIA problem is significant enough that NM might be the only > > > way to tackle with it seriously. That means taking time to examine > > > applications. > > > > BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package > > maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a > > percentage of "old" style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM > > process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA > > without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics > > myself if nobody has done it before. > > And how many NMs go MIA because they still stuck in the NM queue after > years? Should we ask them? :) I'm stuck since Dec. 2001 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! SOMEONE HELP ME!!! HELP ME SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE NM TUNNEL!! AGGG!!! Oh well, this "plea" probably will go the way of the weekly RC bug report - ignored.. :) Since I started waiting for DAM, I saw a number of "DD"s get approved by their AM and accounts created, only later to go MIA Maybe it is better for them to go MIA in the NM queue in the first place? - Adam My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to direct emails about those bugs.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
#include > I agree. The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail. AOL > Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality > but a backup functionality. To be able to provide the main > functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency. Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake "no-user-mta" package with equivs. MfG, Eduard. -- Theorie ist, wenn man alles weiß und nix funktioniert; Praxis ist, wenn alles funktionniert und keiner weiß, warum.
Re: Bug#202869: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 08:33:35PM -0700, Erik Steffl wrote: | >Mutt can read mail without an MTA, but cannot send mail without one. | | it does not have to be on the same machine It does in the specific case of mutt. I seem to recall Mutt's developers deciding to specifically /not/ support SMTP and only /usr/bin/sendmail for reasons of minimalism and simplicity. Cameron.
Re: Have Linux boot with eye-candy
On Wednesday 06 August 2003 02:38, Erich Schubert wrote: > Hi, > i have built packages for the bootsplash tools (no package for the patch > itself though. just download and apply the diff). > They are available on http://people.debian.org/~erich/boot/bootsplash/ > and work fine on my notebook as well as my sisters. > I didn't get the bootsplash support of swsusp working though; but maybe > i just forgot applying that "connector" patch... ;) If you don't mind, I'll probably grab stuff from your package to (finally) finish my ITP #188440 (note that I'll probably use only one source tarball for both the patch and splashutils, and that I hacked the patch to add support for bootsplash theme _inside_ a cramfs initrd). I hope to get enough time this week-end to finalize these packages. (...) > You'll find a theme i built for Debian there, too. > It uses a really cool background made by Alexis Younes (ayo), > http://www.73lab.com/ -- unfortunately i don't know if it is DFSG-free. > using the debian logos it probably isn't. ;) They aren't DFSG compliant. -- "Do you know what's the best thing about being me ? There's so many me ! " -- Agent Smith Reloaded
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Hi, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> * Morgon Kanter
>
> | What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP?
>
> Not without a patch, which afaik, isn't in the mutt in Debian.
I would recommend using that patch, then.
IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send
off the mail, your MUA says "Sent", you power down or just close the
laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail
sits there indefinitely.
--
Matthias Urlichs | {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
--
:flypage: /fli:'payj/ n. (alt. `fly page') A {banner}, sense 1.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:06:08AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: > #include > > I agree. The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail. > > AOL > > > Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality > > but a backup functionality. To be able to provide the main > > functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency. > > Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on > mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta > > and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake "no-user-mta" package > with equivs. There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NM non-process
* Goswin Brederlow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 05:35]: > Kalle Kivimaa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package > > maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a > > percentage of "old" style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM > > process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA > > without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics > > myself if nobody has done it before. > And how many NMs go MIA because they still stuck in the NM queue after > years? Should we ask them? :) Many. While cleaning up the ITPs/RFPs I asked many packagers about the status of their package and got quite often a "package is more or less ready, but I'm waiting of DAM-approval because I don't want the hassle of another sponsored package", or, what's worse a "package was ok some time ago, but as Debian doesn't want me I stopped fixing it". Sad. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
* Andreas Metzler | [1] I won't list Gnus but would be really surprised if it _needed_ | /usr/sbin/sendmail ;-) gnus uses /usr/sbin/sendmail by default, but can use smtpmail.el if you want that. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: NM non-process
Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > * Goswin Brederlow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 05:35]: > > Kalle Kivimaa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package > > > maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a > > > percentage of "old" style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM > > > process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA > > > without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics > > > myself if nobody has done it before. > > > And how many NMs go MIA because they still stuck in the NM queue after > > years? Should we ask them? :) > > Many. While cleaning up the ITPs/RFPs I asked many packagers about the > status of their package and got quite often a "package is more or less > ready, but I'm waiting of DAM-approval because I don't want the hassle > of another sponsored package", or, what's worse a "package was ok some > time ago, but as Debian doesn't want me I stopped fixing it". > > Sad. Till this morning I was one of those NMs not wanting the hassel of a sponsor but now I had to change my maintainers email and fix some RC bugs so I did bully someone to sponsor it. You wait 5 Month for the DAM and thus one should become DD any day now. Would you realy go hunting for a sponsor again? Now that I did I probably become DD tomorrow so it was a waste of time. .oO( Damn, now I jinxed become DD too again ). MfG Goswin
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:35:29 +0200 Matthias Urlichs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send > off the mail, your MUA says "Sent", you power down or just close the > laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail > sits there indefinitely. While I agree with you yuo are aware that this is a religious war that makes the likes of EMACS vs Vi and Isreal vs. Palastine look like child's play, right? -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgplskzCOxNAJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:35:29AM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote: > IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send > off the mail, your MUA says "Sent", you power down or just close the > laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail > sits there indefinitely. Unless it is something like SSMTP... SSMTP has no queue and sends E-Mail immediately to a smarthost. -- Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: NM non-process
* Adam Majer | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to | direct emails about those bugs. I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
#include * Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]: > > Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on > > mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta > > > > and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake "no-user-mta" package > > with equivs. > > There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that > provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install > something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that. This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on mail-transport-agent and get one. MfG, Eduard.
Re: python 2.2 -> python 2.3 transition
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:31:53PM +0200, Matthias Klose wrote: > Last weekend, python 2.3 was released. > With the next python2.3 upload, python2.3 becomes the default python > version. Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.* packages every time python* is mentioned? :P -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Hi, Colin Watson wrote:
> There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that
> provides mail-transport-agent with equivs.
I wouldn't even think about that; it's too easy to forget all about that
and then get bitten when you install a package which does require a
working /usr/sbin/sendmail.
> Or they could install
> something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that.
Better idea. ;-)
--
Matthias Urlichs | {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
--
:var: /veir/ or /var/ n. Short for `variable'. Compare {arg}, {param}.
Re: Excessive wait for DAM - something needs to be done
Hi, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader wrote:
> In any case, applications will be processed (and some rejected, I'd
> assume) once db.d.o is up again.
Well, it seems to be up now (or at least ping+ssh+ldap'able).
I'll leave the obvious-loaded-question-asking to others. This time. ;-)
--
Matthias Urlichs | {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
--
Truth can wait; he's used to it.
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:10:08AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > * Adam Majer > > | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for > | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to > | direct emails about those bugs. > > I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or > so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program. Is that noted in the log for the bug? Or would you respond to an e-mail enquiring as to the status of the bug? If either of those is true, then you're not MIA by Adam's definition (well, I added the bug log bit, but it's pretty much a pre-emptive answer to the question "what's going on with that bug?"). - Matt
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
Hi, On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 03:15:59PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:38:19 +0200 > Emile van Bergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Apple has a great way of doing that. They don't dumb down, they don't > > belittle you, they assume an intelligent being who can grasp reasonably > > complex English sentences, but who has less knowledge of computer > > idiom. > > *blink, blink* Funny, I consider Apple on of the worst when it > comes to dumbing down the interface. Let's not forget they only > took about 10 years to get *2* mouse buttons because it was too > confusing. To each his own mistakes. The point is that they seem to succeed relatively often in creating messages and dialogues that are both informative to the knowledgeable user and intelligible to a non-computer savvy person. Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: NM non-process
* Tollef Fog Heen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 11:20]: > * Adam Majer > > | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for > | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to > | direct emails about those bugs. > I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or > so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program. It seems to me that you're responding to emails. ;-) (But: It seems usefull to me if a maintainer is writing status to each RC-bug within two weeks if the bug isn't closed; however, up to six weeks are acceptable once in a while, e.g. because of holidays.) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Re: Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent? [Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 07:26:33AM +0200, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] > Joe Average User would most probably be pissed if he installed mutt > but doesn't have an MTA and then tries to send mail. That would take > us back into the old days of Slackware. Joe User will have Exim installed anyway (see the discussion on -devel two weeks ago). The dependency on an MTA is not necessary, so for those who want to remove their MTA completely but retain mutt, it would be nice if the "Depends:" was dropped, the rest of the world won't notice anyway. Christoph -- Christoph Berg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, http://www.df7cb.de Wohnheim D, 2405, Universität des Saarlandes, 0681/9657944 pgpFmf6rd3es1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
* Matthew Palmer | On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:10:08AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | > * Adam Majer | > | > | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for | > | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to | > | direct emails about those bugs. | > | > I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or | > so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program. | | Is that noted in the log for the bug? Naturally, yes. | Or would you respond to an e-mail enquiring as to the status of the | bug? Yes. | If either of those is true, then you're not MIA by Adam's definition | (well, I added the bug log bit, but it's pretty much a pre-emptive | answer to the question "what's going on with that bug?"). I misread, I read the «and» as an «or», which changes the semantics a bit. :) -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: NM non-process
Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > * Adam Majer > > | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for > | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to > | direct emails about those bugs. > > I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or > so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program. Taged forwarded? MfG Goswin
Re: NM non-process
* Goswin Brederlow | Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | | > * Adam Majer | > | > | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for | > | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to | > | direct emails about those bugs. | > | > I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or | > so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program. | | Taged forwarded? No, because that messes up my bug listings. That upstream knows about a bug does not mean he is working on a fix, so just marking all bugs forwarded isn't very useful, IMHO. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
* Morgon Kanter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030806 07:57]: > > I agree. The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail. > > Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality > > but a backup functionality. To be able to provide the main > > functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency. > > What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP? If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would be the lesser part). Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
Hi, On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:06:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > * Emile van Bergen > > | Hi, > | > | On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:19:53AM -0700, Ian Hickson wrote: > | > | > And I would scream if you called it "/_My_ Variable Data/" too... :-P > | > | I would even scream at > | > | /Variable Data/ > | > | simply because it encourages slow and RSI-inducing click and drag > | behaviour, because such path names are impossible to type in (and this > | one even requires escaping the space to distinguish between the argument > | separator). > > Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var. I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they work only in the shell. Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file and have to write those path names. There are lots of other cases where you must type a pathname in full. scp (on the remote side) is one that's important. /Va* further has the problem of requiring two awkward shifts. [SNIP] > Geeks use systems a lot and for long periods of time, so using more or > less obscure interfaces is good, not bad for us. > > :) I think that we prefer interfaces are ultimately very fast and are willing to live the learning curve and obscurity that currently comes with it. There may be an inherent tradeoff, but I think that we shouldn't be too quickly in dismissing UI changes that improve the linearity of the learning curve, if they can be shown not to harm the efficiency at the end of the curve. Of course, any change that actually shifts the balance from convenience for the frequent user towards ease of use for the incidental user should IMHO be treated with a lot more scepsis -- if not outright rejected. Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
Am 6.08.03 um 13:04:41 schrieb Emile van Bergen: > > Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var. > I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they > work only in the shell. > > Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file > and have to write those path names. In Vim insert mode, press ^X^F for completion, ^N/^P to choose among many. Also, in GTK+, file selector boxes allow for tab completion. Bye, Mike -- |=| Michael Piefel |=| Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin |=| Tel. (+49 30) 2093 3831
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:34:49 +0200 Michael Piefel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Am 6.08.03 um 13:04:41 schrieb Emile van Bergen: > > Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file > > and have to write those path names. > In Vim insert mode, press ^X^F for completion, ^N/^P to choose among > many. Also, in GTK+, file selector boxes allow for tab completion. *blink, blink* Wow, Neat! Learn something new every day. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgp01MoUXbK9M.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200 "Bernhard R. Link" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing > the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would > be the lesser part). No, it would not. It would be using another method of accessing an MTA. Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web server, a secure web server and an ftp server. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpicpinBn2wP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
Michael Piefel wrote: Am 6.08.03 um 13:04:41 schrieb Emile van Bergen: Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var. I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they work only in the shell. Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file and have to write those path names. In Vim insert mode, press ^X^F for completion, ^N/^P to choose among many. Also, in GTK+, file selector boxes allow for tab completion. Also, in emacs one of the expansion techniques used by hippie-expand is to perform filename completion. -- Keith P.S. Despite that I'm in favor of shortness. Even "ls" instead of "dir" is worth it for me ;)
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
Emile van Bergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hi, > > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:06:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > >> * Emile van Bergen >> >> | Hi, >> | >> | On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:19:53AM -0700, Ian Hickson wrote: >> | >> | > And I would scream if you called it "/_My_ Variable Data/" too... :-P >> | >> | I would even scream at >> | >> | /Variable Data/ >> | >> | simply because it encourages slow and RSI-inducing click and drag >> | behaviour, because such path names are impossible to type in (and this >> | one even requires escaping the space to distinguish between the argument >> | separator). >> >> Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var. > > I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they > work only in the shell. > > Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file > and have to write those path names. There are lots of other cases where > you must type a pathname in full. > > scp (on the remote side) is one that's important. > Use the ZShell, then! ;-) Otherwise, I of course fully agree that names like /Variable Data/ are evil. Regards, Andy -- Andreas Rottmann | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.8ung.at/rotty | GnuPG Key: http://www.8ung.at/rotty/gpg.asc Fingerprint | DFB4 4EB4 78A4 5EEE 6219 F228 F92F CFC5 01FD 5B62 Make free software, not war!
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Aug 05, "Artur R. Czechowski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I am not convinced to only Recommend on mail-transfer-agent. I rather >tend to closing this wishitem or tag it as wontfix. I'm inclined to close this bug. I agree with the submitter that a local MTA is not strictly needed to use mutt, but OTOH these situations are uncommon enough that advanced users can create a package with equivs or just install one of the minimalist SMTP delivery programs. -- ciao, | Marco | [1158 brlPjyz4p9Ta.]
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 10:52:37AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: > #include > * Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]: > > > Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on > > > mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta > > > > > > and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake "no-user-mta" package > > > with equivs. > > There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that > > provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install > > something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that. > This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a > working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on > mail-transport-agent and get one. Of course it's dangerous; overriding dependencies with the use of equivs is always a little sketchy. But if you're this concerned about not having an MTA installed on your system (there are many choices in Debian, some of them quite lightweight), you must have a reason, right? -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgp0BJ66htagf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
Hi, Emile van Bergen wrote:
> I would even scream at
> /Variable Data/
>
> simply because it encourages slow and RSI-inducing click and drag
> behaviour
"/Va" isn't too bad, typing-wise, especially if you also have a
case-insensitive file system.
Apple's OS X translates the pathnames in the GUI _only_, so you get
"Applications" in English and "Programme" if you switch to German. The
file system understands only the original name, of course. I have my own
directory, named "Programme", alongside, and while there's some initial
user confusion WRT two identically-named directories, the UI does a good
job keeping them distinct. (The fact that the Apple directory has a
distinct icon helps, of course. ;-)
--
Matthias Urlichs | {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
--
Mythology: The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its origin,
early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from the true
accounts which it invents later.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote: > I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or > whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce > problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and > should not be ignored. Why is this a danger? This is one of the freedoms provided by free software, which we work hard to promote. -- - mdz
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
* Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030806 13:43]: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200 > "Bernhard R. Link" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing > > the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would > > be the lesser part). > > No, it would not. It would be using another method of accessing an MTA. > Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web server, > a secure web server and an ftp server. Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems to believe the same). In other words I demand beeing able so send a mail somewhere. (Which includes speaking SMTP, if one wants to reach arbitrary hosts). Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On 06-Aug-03, 02:06 (CDT), Eduard Bloch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on > mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta Or better, Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple "get mail to a real MTA" package, whose configuration will ask "where's your real MTA?" Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: python 2.2 -> python 2.3 transition
hmmm.. just curious... why? On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:18:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:31:53PM +0200, Matthias Klose wrote: > > Last weekend, python 2.3 was released. > > With the next python2.3 upload, python2.3 becomes the default python > > version. > > Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.* packages > every time python* is mentioned? :P > -[ Domenico Andreoli, aka cavok --[ http://filibusta.crema.unimi.it/~cavok/gpgkey.asc ---[ 3A0F 2F80 F79C 678A 8936 4FEE 0677 9033 A20E BC50
howto use chroot on merulo?
hi, i need to build curl on ia64 to see why it fails the test phase. i'm thinking to use merulo, the only machine which provides chroots (i suppose) to compile stuff for sarge, but i never used chroots on project machines. any hint? i gave a glance to the developer reference but i didn't find anything useful. thanks domenico -[ Domenico Andreoli, aka cavok --[ http://filibusta.crema.unimi.it/~cavok/gpgkey.asc ---[ 3A0F 2F80 F79C 678A 8936 4FEE 0677 9033 A20E BC50 pgpoFcZpCFzD6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:41:20 -0400, Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote: >> I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or >> whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce >> problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and >> should not be ignored. > >Why is this a danger? This is one of the freedoms provided by free >software, which we work hard to promote. But splitting the entire project is a freedom I would hate to see exercised. In my opinion, things that threaten a project split to happen should be avoided before the split happens. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: NM non-process
* Matt Zimmerman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 14:50]: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote: > > I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or > > whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce > > problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and > > should not be ignored. > Why is this a danger? This is one of the freedoms provided by free > software, which we work hard to promote. Because it would be a waste of work, time and energy. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:56:34PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:41:20 -0400, Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote: > >> I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or > >> whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce > >> problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and > >> should not be ignored. > > > >Why is this a danger? This is one of the freedoms provided by free > >software, which we work hard to promote. > > But splitting the entire project is a freedom I would hate to see > exercised. In my opinion, things that threaten a project split to > happen should be avoided before the split happens. Debian can't please everyone, any more than other projects can. That is why there are choices. -- - mdz
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:33:38PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: > * Matt Zimmerman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 14:50]: > > Why is this a danger? This is one of the freedoms provided by free > > software, which we work hard to promote. > > Because it would be a waste of work, time and energy. Not if the projects have different goals. -- - mdz
About NM and Next Release
I am currently on NM process. And as far as I know, there have been totally over 700 developer of Debian officially. What I would like to point out here is, totally over the world claims that debian is being obsolete. New releases are so slow. Yes they are partially right. However, with 700 maintainers, Debian is slow. We would like to be a part of Debian through NM process. However, NM process cause a deeply undesireble emotions on applicants because of 2-3 years wait duration. To me, opposing to the policies Debian is on progress to be a Mysterious box to the outside world. We believe we could be helpful. However, We are trying to be cut off from that project. Totally this is agaist prejudice on Policies.. and DFSG. Debian Maintainers are becoming too elite. However, outside world becoming more excluded. And Debian finally is becoming so obsolete. pgpzSXtexErKT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:07:40 -0400 Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not if the projects have different goals. If the goal is the same only the process to that goal is broken then it is a waste of time and effort. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpiCn5FAzxd8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:51AM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote: > > Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent > > That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple "get > mail to a real MTA" package, whose configuration will ask "where's your > real MTA?" Doesn't policy state that a virtual package must be listed before any real package? data -- Jesus Climent | Unix SysAdm | Helsinki, Finland | pumuki.hispalinux.es GPG: 1024D/86946D69 BB64 2339 1CAA 7064 E429 7E18 66FC 1D7F 8694 6D69 -- Registered Linux user #66350 proudly using Debian Sid & Linux 2.4.21 El concepto es el concepto. --Pazos (Airbag)
Re: howto use chroot on merulo?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:23:39PM +0200, Domenico Andreoli wrote: > hi, > > i need to build curl on ia64 to see why it fails the test phase. > i'm thinking to use merulo, the only machine which provides chroots > (i suppose) to compile stuff for sarge, but i never used chroots on > project machines. > > any hint? i gave a glance to the developer reference but i didn't find > anything useful. Use "dchroot". Without arguments it prints usage and available chroots.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 06:51:12PM +1000, Brian May wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:35:29AM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote: > > IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send > > off the mail, your MUA says "Sent", you power down or just close the > > laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail > > sits there indefinitely. > Unless it is something like SSMTP... > SSMTP has no queue and sends E-Mail immediately to a smarthost. And is a much better choice than expecting every user to locally configure smtp settings in the MUA. Lack of direct-SMTP support in mutt is a good thing. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpEYlykAfL5J.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 07:14:00AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:07:40 -0400 > Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Not if the projects have different goals. > > If the goal is the same only the process to that goal is broken then it is > a waste of time and effort. I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php. What part of the process are you claiming is broken? -- - mdz
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
#include * Steve Greenland [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:01:51AM]: > > Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on > > mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta > > Or better, > > Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent Where is the point? OP did already know how to manage dependencies, he can install ssmtp if he wanted to, but he doesn't. You just move the choice a bit, I did in contrary suggest a solution for mutt and similar MUA packages and users that have very custom wishes. > That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple "get > mail to a real MTA" package, whose configuration will ask "where's your > real MTA?" I though the whole thread is about how to resolve dependencies without having any MTA installed. You imagine that some newbie user wishes to install mutt but has _intentionaly_ removed exim before and now needs some help. Very unlikely, IMO. MfG, Eduard. -- Wann kommt Debian3.0? Jemand n ungefähres oder genaues Datum parat? DeVries: Wenn es fertig ist. dwVries wenn es fertig ist DeVries: ziemlich genau dann, wenn es fertig ist.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
#include * Steve Langasek [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 07:37:16AM]: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 10:52:37AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: > > #include > > * Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]: > > > > > Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on > > > > mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta > > > > > > > > and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake "no-user-mta" package > > > > with equivs. > > > > There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that > > > provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install > > > something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that. > > > This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a > > working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on > > mail-transport-agent and get one. > > Of course it's dangerous; overriding dependencies with the use of equivs > is always a little sketchy. But if you're this concerned about not > having an MTA installed on your system (there are many choices in > Debian, some of them quite lightweight), you must have a reason, right? a) It is not for me b) I did not tell to override _real_ dependencies. It is a virtuall package with only one purpose and to be installed by users with special wishes. c) Having an MTA for other packages or not is not the point of the discussion. It is allowing _few_ users to work around a dependency which makes sence for everybody else, but is not really useful for _those_ few users in their special environment. MfG, Eduard. PS: a hot day or what? People feel a need to add sth. to the thread without understanding the issue. -- Gegenwärtiges Unglück verdau ich in wenig(en) Stunden; aber künftiges bleibt mir im Magen liegen. -- Jean Paul pgpt0lMa1QndE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:07:40 -0400 > Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Not if the projects have different goals. > > If the goal is the same only the process to that goal is broken then it is > a waste of time and effort. Not if a new projects succedes in reaching that goal in a way superior to how the present Debian reaches the goal. Organizing a project from scratch can turn out to be the only way change bureaucracy and infrastructure that may make the goal harder to reach. "Plan to throw one away" can also be a good thing on the organizatoinal level. This is only abstract observations I'm not saying that Debian is in a state where it is necessary. I have no ideas for how to change Debian in a rational way whith the present goal as I see it. -- Peter Makholm |According to the hacker ethic, the meaning of life [EMAIL PROTECTED] |is not Friday, but it is not Sunday either http://hacking.dk | -- Peeka Himanen
Re: python 2.2 -> python 2.3 transition
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:18:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: > Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.* > packages every time python* is mentioned? :P On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 02:59:00PM +0200, Domenico Andreoli wrote: > hmmm.. just curious... why? The short of it: he's joking. Note the smiley. Even though package names that have version numbers tends to bloat the archive, but there really isn't a more graceful way for allowing two versions of the software to exist on a system at the same time. Josip knows this, hence the smiley. -- Chad Walstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ pgpHqipr7YdXq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Hi,
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:03:07PM +0200, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> * Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030806 13:43]:
> > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
> > "Bernhard R. Link" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
> > > the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
> > > be the lesser part).
> >
> > No, it would not. It would be using another method of accessing an
> > MTA.
> > Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web
> > server,
> > a secure web server and an ftp server.
>
> Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a
> MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems
> to believe the same).
So netscape and pine, both of which contain an SMTP /client/, are MTAs??
Your definition does not seem to be shared by many people then.
Generally, an MTA is able to do the MX lookup, has a queue, and a few
methods of injecting messages into that queue, perhaps via
/usr/lib/sendmail -t or through SMTP.
I would not consider anything that contains a SMTP client an MTA. A
proxy that handles port 25 is no MTA either. Such strict definitions
('talks SMTP') are generally not very useful.
Cheers,
Emile.
--
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: About NM and Next Release
I'm not commenting on the rest of the message but this: On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 05:29:54PM +0300, Halil Demirezen wrote: > What I would like to point out here is, totally over the world claims > that debian is being obsolete. New releases are so slow. Yes they are Debian is dying. Linux is dying. The end of the world is nigh. Things like this (including democracies) only die when people beleive it. As long a people belive they're doing the right thing, the whole process is self-sustaining. Now, on with the regularly scheduled flamewar. -- Martijn van Oosterhout http://svana.org/kleptog/ > "All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good > men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke > "The penalty good people pay for not being interested in politics is to be > governed by people worse than themselves." - Plato pgp2ZhulKUCfw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:30:11 -0400 Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php. What part of the > process are you claiming is broken? I wasn't aware my name had to be on the list to recognize that some have been there for years. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpo1NVbqjlNE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:10 -0500 Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And is a much better choice than expecting every user to locally > configure smtp settings in the MUA. Lack of direct-SMTP support in mutt > is a good thing. Yeah because entering "smtp.isp.com" is just so trying for most people. And what if the local user wants to use a remote SMTP server for some reason? H. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpKoPcuEeShw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
#include * Bernhard R. Link [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 03:03:07PM]: > * Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030806 13:43]: > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200 > > "Bernhard R. Link" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing > > > the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would > > > be the lesser part). > > > > No, it would not. It would be using another method of accessing an > > MTA. > > Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web > > server, > > a secure web server and an ftp server. > > Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a > MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems > to believe the same). In other words I demand beeing able so send a mail > somewhere. (Which includes speaking SMTP, if one wants to reach > arbitrary hosts). But your statement was wrong, please reread it. MTA term (for my judgement) implies some program which emulates the sendmail command to send Email (and mutt does not, AFAIK, even if it can accept mail body from stdin) to other hosts and to local users, while the local part of the transport may also be implemented on the smarthost, eg. sharing /var/mail directory and the user database some other system which also acts as the ssmtp's smarthost. MfG, Eduard. -- Ernährungstip: Spinat schmeckt am besten, wenn man ihn kurz vor dem Verzehr durch ein Steak ersetzt. -- Robert Wachinger
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:30:54PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: > #include > * Steve Langasek [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 07:37:16AM]: > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 10:52:37AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: > > > #include > > > * Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]: > > > > > > > Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on > > > > > mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta > > > > > > > > > > and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake "no-user-mta" package > > > > > with equivs. > > > > > > There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that > > > > provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install > > > > something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that. > > > This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a > > > working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on > > > mail-transport-agent and get one. > > Of course it's dangerous; overriding dependencies with the use of equivs > > is always a little sketchy. But if you're this concerned about not > > having an MTA installed on your system (there are many choices in > > Debian, some of them quite lightweight), you must have a reason, right? > a) It is not for me > b) I did not tell to override _real_ dependencies. It is a virtuall > package with only one purpose and to be installed by users with > special wishes. > c) Having an MTA for other packages or not is not the point of the > discussion. It is allowing _few_ users to work around a dependency > which makes sence for everybody else, but is not really useful for > _those_ few users in their special environment. > PS: a hot day or what? People feel a need to add sth. to the thread > without understanding the issue. You tell me. Why is it so important to *prevent* the installation of an MTA on such a machine when installing mutt? 99% of our users are going to want to send outgoing mail from their mailreader. A package that contains multiple binaries must depend on every library those binaries link against, even if a particular library is only needed by one seldom-used application to provide functionality that a small fraction of users would consider useful. If that's a dependency, why would an MTA not be a dependency? At the packaging level, the two situations are analogous: in both cases, the packages are usable for /some/ activities without the dependency in question. Why is "I don't /really/ want my MUA to be able to send mail" a more sensible position than "I don't /really/ want atd to notify me about job status"? -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpbk5SCYMyHA.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On 06-Aug-03, 09:18 (CDT), Jesus Climent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:51AM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote: > > > > Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent > > > > That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple "get > > mail to a real MTA" package, whose configuration will ask "where's your > > real MTA?" > > Doesn't policy state that a virtual package must be listed before any real > package? Other way around. That allows you to state a preference in resolving the virtual package. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > > Or perhaps the poster should know the policy on Debian lists which is > _not_ to Cc unless explicitly requested. Noted. I was unaware of this, having not seen any mention of this policy when I subscribed. My apologies for any inconvenience caused. -- Ian Hickson )\._.,--,'``.fL "meow" /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. http://index.hixie.ch/ `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:04:00AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: | > And is a much better choice than expecting every user to locally | > configure smtp settings in the MUA. Lack of direct-SMTP support in mutt | > is a good thing. | | Yeah because entering "smtp.isp.com" is just so trying for most people. It is if they have to dig up what the correct SMTP server is. Or if they're on a laptop whose "correct" local SMTP server changes as a function of time. | And what if the local user wants to use a remote SMTP server for some reason? They are welcome to configure ssmtp or exim to forward to a smarthost. This has the additional advantage that there's only /one/ point where the outgoing SMTP server needs to be specified, and if it changes later, there is only one program that needs to be reconfigured. Cameron.
Re: About NM and Next Release
#include * Halil Demirezen [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 05:29:54PM]: > We believe we could be helpful. However, We are trying to be cut off What makes you believe this? Many people helped Debian development on critical points like boot-floppies and debian-installer development _without_ beeing a DD and without permanent bitching about their state - but somehow I cannot found YOUR name among them. The same is with many other RC bugs. You can make a package update, send the diff to the BTS and retitle the bug report, appending "Maintainer MIA, NMU required", for example. All this things are possible w/o having a c00l @d.o mail addy. > Debian Maintainers are becoming too elite. However, outside world becoming > more excluded. And Debian finally is becoming so obsolete. Interessting analysis. Many things that hold up the release can only be solved by active and experienced maintainers since the packages are often essential. New developers can help maintaining them in cooperation with main developer and get the experience after some time and reading of the policy, developers reference, lib packaging guide, etc, but having a sponsor between them and the upload queue is still better. MfG, Eduard. -- Ein Kerl wie ein Baum - sie nannten ihn "Bonsai" pgp14ktKTvOe6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
I do not need CCs. I am obviously active on the list. On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:28:52 +0800 Cameron Patrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:04:00AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > It is if they have to dig up what the correct SMTP server is. Or if > they're on a laptop whose "correct" local SMTP server changes as a > function of time. How many local users are you going to have on a laptop whose correct SMTP server changes as a function of their location? > | And what if the local user wants to use a remote SMTP server for some > reason? > They are welcome to configure ssmtp or exim to forward to a smarthost. > This has the additional advantage that there's only /one/ point where > the outgoing SMTP server needs to be specified, and if it changes later, > there is only one program that needs to be reconfigured. Oddly enough I only have one program for that now. Sylpheed-Claws. Fortunately it can do something that most SMTP servers can't without some rather painful configuration: send mail through different SMTP servers based on the account from which the mail was sent. Hell, if you want to get technical about it I could do that without an MTA easily enough. Tell them to use "mail" as the smtp server, edit resolv.conf and have "mail" resolve to whatever server they need to send to. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpguNlIymPtJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 10:17:24AM -0400, Nathanael Nerode wrote: > Martin Schulze is also the Press Contact, so I certainly hope he has good > communication skills! /me goes and yanks Joey's chain some more :o) -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Hi, On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:36:36PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: > #include > * Bernhard R. Link [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 03:03:07PM]: > > * Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030806 13:43]: > > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200 > > > "Bernhard R. Link" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing > > > > the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would > > > > be the lesser part). > > > > > > No, it would not. It would be using another method of accessing an > > > MTA. > > > Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web > > > server, > > > a secure web server and an ftp server. > > > > Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a > > MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems > > to believe the same). In other words I demand beeing able so send a mail > > somewhere. (Which includes speaking SMTP, if one wants to reach > > arbitrary hosts). > > But your statement was wrong, please reread it. MTA term (for my judgement) > implies some program which emulates the sendmail command to send Email > (and mutt does not, AFAIK, even if it can accept mail body from stdin) > to other hosts and to local users, while the local part of the transport > may also be implemented on the smarthost, eg. sharing /var/mail > directory and the user database some other system which also acts as the > ssmtp's smarthost. You're right, it /is/ a hot day. Sorry. I agree with your definition. Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: NM non-process
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 11:44:11AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: > > > > If he doesn't want to, the DPL should really do something. > > > > Such as...? > > > I think he's saying that the DPL should 'delegate his DAM power' to > > somebody else. The DAMs are after all officially appointed by the DPL... > > Quite. And who is he going to delegate it to? Himself, for example? He already does work on that front, he's certainly a trusted developer judging by the vote results (and there's no such record for any other officers, mind you), and in fact he said he helped James add some people already (IIRC there were over a dozen added that time). I don't see how could any other leader-related task be possibly more important than pretty much gracefully resolving an issue that's been plaguing us for the last several years. I see how it could be construed as a conflict of interest[1], but it's not like the process doesn't have plenty of means to prevent that. [1] I can see it now... tbm adding gobs of his peons to the project and voting to add "Barbara Livi worship" as 6th clause of the social contract! :) -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: NM non-process
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 07:03:11PM +0300, Kalle Kivimaa wrote: > > with. The MIA problem is significant enough that NM might be the only > > way to tackle with it seriously. That means taking time to examine > > applications. > > BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package > maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a > percentage of "old" style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM > process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA > without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics > myself if nobody has done it before. I did some quick checking in the echelon a few weeks back and noticed a linear curve in how the number of MIA maintainers decreases with time. Meaning that among the first 100 developers, something like 15% are missing; among the fifth 100, 10%, and 5% in the tenth 100, or so (I don't remember exactly). This information is probably not worth much per se, though. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: NM non-process
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 06:36:10PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: > > > Totally true. That's e.g. the reason why announcing the removal of old > > > RFPs didn't appear in debian-devel-announce where it would have > > > belonged - the submission was rejected by the moderators for the > > > formal reason I'm not a DD. > > > Did you even try to find a DD to sign it for you? > > Sign for what? > > I got a rejection mail on my try to post on d-d-a. This mail said > clearly that I should post to d-d instead, and I followed this > instructions. > > (As I would really liked something on d-d-a I asked at the beginning > of my mail to d-d whether a DD could send a pointer to d-d-a.) Hence you understood my point in the explanation of the rejection message. That nobody did so is a different issue. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: About NM and Next Release
Debians greatest strength is in its community, that includes dd's and non dd's. If we are organised in such a way that we are alienating non dd's the we are operating in a diminished state. Debian is but a shadow of what it could be. Glenn
Re: NM non-process
On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 12:31:44AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: > > > I didn't know that only DD could post on d-d-a. But to be honest, I > > > would have expected that one of the list managers would adopt my > > > message without much words if it is ok to post. As this didn't happen, > > > I interpreted it so that the list managers don't want my mail to > > > appear there and followed the instructions without any further ado. I > > > just want to resolve problems, and not make formal ping-pongs. > > > You probably got an automated reply. > > I've never seen before an automated reply with User-Agent: mutt/[...]. > No, the rejection was not automated (there were also other signs of > human edited, as a quotation line). Heh :) If I hadn't responded to it manually, it would have gotten ignored as spam (nobody cared enough to write a nice formail -r message because it happens rarely enough and the spambounces would waste us more resources). Any other developer can sign your mail and let it through. Us listmaster people have plenty to do without having to deal with content of the mailing lists like this -- there's gobs of people that need assistance with stuff only we can help them with (manual searches for subscribed address, and then forced (un)subscription) so we tend to spend time doing that instead. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: python 2.2 -> python 2.3 transition
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:33:26AM -0500, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > > Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.* > > > packages every time python* is mentioned? :P > > > hmmm.. just curious... why? > > The short of it: he's joking. Note the smiley. Even though package > names that have version numbers tends to bloat the archive, but there > really isn't a more graceful way for allowing two versions of the > software to exist on a system at the same time. Josip knows this, hence > the smiley. Yes. It's also a smiley with the tongue out, meaning I'm actually saddened by the end-result of the situation and resort to joking out of sheer desperation. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
> Joe Average User would most probably be pissed if he installed mutt but > doesn't have an MTA and then tries to send mail. That would take us back > into the old days of Slackware. Joe Average User has to follow the recommendation, since he doesn't know the details. If he decides to do things different from what is recommended, he is lost anyway. Recommends is a recommendation. Mutt should recommend MTA, not depend. (actualy with the SMTP patch there is no reason to recommend an MTA.) shouldn't some debian base packet include /usr/sbin/sendmail with the lovest possible priority as alternative: a shell script that fails always and asks you to install some mail-transport-agent? or require users to have some clue, and not be able to find out that a missing /usr/sbin/sendmail means that no MTA is installed. Whatever you do, creating fake packages is a road to desaster and not a clean option. Andreas
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
* Emile van Bergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030806 17:04]:
> On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:03:07PM +0200, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> > * Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030806 13:43]:
> > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
> > > "Bernhard R. Link" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
> > > > the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
> > > > be the lesser part).
> > Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a
> > MTA.
>
> So netscape and pine, both of which contain an SMTP /client/, are MTAs??
They have something like an integrated MTA. All I miss there is
to accept a mail in the used form when invoked as /usr/{sbin,lib}/sendmail.
(which is really not that much compared to smtp handling)
Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link
--
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing
an editor and a MTA.
Re: Should this be filed as grave? Gcc-2.95
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 03:32:59PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > I don't take kindly to software installing other software without a > clear need and there simply was no clear need. Well, now, why don'tcha run 'em outta town, Tex? (IMO, the kernel ignoring $(CC) is the kernel's problem.) -- G. Branden Robinson| To stay young requires unceasing Debian GNU/Linux | cultivation of the ability to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | unlearn old falsehoods. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Robert Heinlein pgpGEVxvsfdCl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:38:19 +0200, Emile van Bergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You know, I think these are actually good suggestions. I think there's a > lot to be gained *not* by dumbing down, *not* by losing any information > that might be useful to a geek or to a new user as (s)he's learning, but > by phrasing texts so that they appeal more to generally intelligent > human beings, rather than to people that just happen to have some > specific knowledge. Sometimes jargon is more understandable for a non-native speaker because it has a very narrow sense. -- Oohara Yuuma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Debian developer PGP key (key ID F464A695) http://www.interq.or.jp/libra/oohara/pub-key.txt Key fingerprint = 6142 8D07 9C5B 159B C170 1F4A 40D6 F42E F464 A695 Er, let's get into all the messes of the parliament. --- shinichiro.h, diary 2003/3/24 "parliamentary bullet-dodging system"
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Eduard Bloch wrote: > It is allowing _few_ users to work around a dependency > which makes sence for everybody else, but is not really useful for > _those_ few users in their special environment. What few users? What special environment? Can anyone provide a real world example of a Debian system that will have mutt but no mta (or other package that depends on an mta)? This is all seems very contrived.
Re: About NM and Next Release
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 05:29:54PM +0300, Halil Demirezen wrote: > Debian Maintainers are becoming too elite. However, outside world becoming > more excluded. And Debian finally is becoming so obsolete. Everybody has an opinion on this matter. I don't usually even bother posting mine, but here goes anyway Your conclusion that long DAM wait times leads to slow releases has little or no basis in fact. You do not need to have completed the NM process to contribute to Debian. In fact, I believe the whole DAM process would be more effective if we *required* that you made non-trivial contributions to Debian *before* the DAM would create an account for you. Additionally (strictly my opinion here, others will undoubtedly disagree), I believe that Debian's long release times are caused by it being too big, rather than not big enough. Too many developers, too many packages, too many architectures, all that. There are signs that others feel the same way (e.g. the number of people who complain every time somebody submits an ITP for yet another web based image gallery or something like that seems to be going up). So, if you want to see Debian release sooner, go fix some RC bugs. You don't need to have completed the NM process to do that, and doing that might actually help you get through the NM process quicker. noah pgpUmXDyKjrYQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 09:55:59AM -0700, Ian Hickson wrote: > > I receieved the machine with Debian preinstalled and no offline > documentation except a post it note with the root username and password. > On other systems (Mac OS X, Windows XP, etc) I am clearly shown where to > look for more information (on Windows, in fact, the OS goes to the other > extreme and tries to ram help down your throat), but on Debian, there was > no clear path to the documentation. Since your debian distribution seems to be non-standard (a blend of stable/testing/unstable); it would seem only appropriate for your vendor to have supplied some information regarding where you may trip up from looking at conventional sources. Thus a large part of your difficulty can be attributed to them, rather than debian. -- Jon Dowland
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
I don't pretend to know what is best for all users, but as a fairly ordinary mutt user I can tell you that I would be unhappy to find out that Debian patched mutt to do SMTP just so they could have a warm fuzzy feeling about the depends. I like mutt the way it is: no SMTP. New mutt users might be slightly confused by the mutt way of doing things but that doesn't mean we have to patch mutt for their sakes. Naturally, it's up to the package maintainer how to differ from upstream, but this mutt user would be miffed. -- Hans Fugal | De gustibus non disputandum est. http://hans.fugal.net/ | Debian, vim, mutt, ruby, text, gpg http://gdmxml.fugal.net/ | WindowMaker, gaim, UTF-8, RISC, JS Bach - GnuPG Fingerprint: 6940 87C5 6610 567F 1E95 CB5E FC98 E8CD E0AA D460 pgpvsOkLwdiJW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
* Steve Lamb | How many local users are you going to have on a laptop whose correct SMTP | server changes as a function of their location? Usually: one, I guess. | Oddly enough I only have one program for that now. Sylpheed-Claws. | Fortunately it can do something that most SMTP servers can't without some | rather painful configuration: send mail through different SMTP servers based | on the account from which the mail was sent. Why do you want to do that? | Hell, if you want to get technical about it I could do that without | an MTA easily enough. Tell them to use "mail" as the smtp server, | edit resolv.conf and have "mail" resolve to whatever server they | need to send to. Then you'd have to restart the program each time you change resolv.conf due to a stupidity in glibc. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)
* Ian Hickson | On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | > | > Or perhaps the poster should know the policy on Debian lists which is | > _not_ to Cc unless explicitly requested. | | Noted. I was unaware of this, having not seen any mention of this policy | when I subscribed. http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/index.html#codeofconduct (Linked to from the top of lists.debian.org, «please see the introduction to Debian mailing lists [...]») | My apologies for any inconvenience caused. No harm done. :) -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:55AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:30:11 -0400 > Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php. What part of the > > process are you claiming is broken? > > I wasn't aware my name had to be on the list to recognize that some have > been there for years. And neither does the fact that some have been there for years indicate anything in particular. You need some familiarity with the process, or else the individual situations of the applicants, in order to claim that their status is unjust. -- - mdz
Re: Should this be filed as grave? Gcc-2.95
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:26:12 -0500 Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (IMO, the kernel ignoring $(CC) is the kernel's problem.) One problem doesn't excuse the other. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpUqL26bbldl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 12:40:21PM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote: > Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > * Adam Majer > > > > | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for > > | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to > > | direct emails about those bugs. > > > > I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or > > so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program. > > Taged forwarded? When you have maintain a package, shouldn't you be able to fix it yourself? IMHO, people should not package or take over a package that they do not understand how it works. For example, a kernel maintainer should be a kernel developer. Or a Qt maintainer, should at least use Qt on dailly basis - preferably both commercially and/or for free software. People should maintain packages they are qualified to maintain and not becuase "it would be neat to package that!". Sometimes you get really hairy bugs that even qualified developers would have trouble to fix... then you need to holer for help until somone helps... Isn't there a tag for Help Wanted or something? - Adam
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
#include * Steve Langasek [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 10:10:06AM]: > You tell me. Why is it so important to *prevent* the installation of an > MTA on such a machine when installing mutt? > > 99% of our users are going to want to send outgoing mail from their > mailreader. A package that contains multiple binaries must depend on > every library those binaries link against, even if a particular library > is only needed by one seldom-used application to provide functionality > that a small fraction of users would consider useful. If that's a > dependency, why would an MTA not be a dependency? At the packaging Hey, don't ask me but the OP. Apparently, there are following options: - do not depend on mail-transport-agent (but we agree that it normally useful) - depend on mail-transport-agent in the MUA package; the only way for the mentioned small fraction is to use equivs and fake mail-transport-agengt which is not so wise solution because other packages depending on m-t-a may really need the sendmail command - depend on m-t-a and allow an alternative virtual package (my proposal) with m-t-a as the first alternative and the fake package as another alternative. This would allow MUAs (without need for sendmail) to be installed by such users but pull a real m-t-a for potential new users So, I hope my last 0.02â. MfG, Eduard. -- Letzte Worte eines ZoowÃrters: "Der LÃwe ist nicht hungrig." pgpfQ5e1cMm2o.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:48:29 -0600 Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > New mutt users might be slightly confused by the mutt way of doing > things but that doesn't mean we have to patch mutt for their sakes. > Naturally, it's up to the package maintainer how to differ from > upstream, but this mutt user would be miffed. Why? It would in no way alter how you do things. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpUA4suiIWmj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
Morgon Kanter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This one time, at band camp, Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I agree. The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail. >> Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality >> but a backup functionality. To be able to provide the main >> functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency. > What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP? No. A fact that has been noted in this thread several times already. cu andreas
Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:50:21 +0200 Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Steve Lamb > | How many local users are you going to have on a laptop whose correct > SMTP| server changes as a function of their location? > Usually: one, I guess. So 1 person, 1 location to change. > | Oddly enough I only have one program for that now. Sylpheed-Claws. > | Fortunately it can do something that most SMTP servers can't without some > | rather painful configuration: send mail through different SMTP servers > based| on the account from which the mail was sent. > Why do you want to do that? Imagine being at work, polling mail from home and then wanting to send mail back out. If the computer, say the laptop, is configured to forward to work mail now you're using the company server to send out personal mail. Even forgiving the whole idea of "Ya'll shouldn't do that on the clock" because people do have lunch breaks and so on some companies archive all mail that travels through their servers. Do you want your private mail ending up in the company archives for several years? I don't. Conversely while at home and answering work mail, presumably on the same machine, you'd want the mail to hit the corporate SMTP server first. Why? Because of the archives above. If you're communicating with an off-site contact and skip the corporate server their archives are incomplete. With this dual system you'd want mail from account A to go to SMTP server A, mail from account B to go to SMTP server B regardless of location. > | Hell, if you want to get technical about it I could do that without > | an MTA easily enough. Tell them to use "mail" as the smtp server, > | edit resolv.conf and have "mail" resolve to whatever server they > | need to send to. > Then you'd have to restart the program each time you change > resolv.conf due to a stupidity in glibc. Given the number of times people have to switch SMTP servers I don't think this is an issue worth worrying about. Certainly worth mentioning, but not much more. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpVSNLwctZ2l.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should this be filed as grave? Gcc-2.95
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Branden Robinson wrote: > (IMO, the kernel ignoring $(CC) is the kernel's problem.) Don't you know your O doesn't matter, only Steve's?
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:56:20 -0400 Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:55AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:30:11 -0400 > > Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php. What part of > > > the process are you claiming is broken? > > I wasn't aware my name had to be on the list to recognize that some > > have been there for years. > And neither does the fact that some have been there for years indicate > anything in particular. Actually, I think it does. They should either be accepted or rejected within x days. x being somewhere below rand(20) * 365. Either they are in, rejected, or the application closed because of a lack of interest on the developer's part. > You need some familiarity with the process, or else the individual > situations of the applicants, in order to claim that their status is unjust. No, I never said their status was unjust. I said the process appears broken. Two completely different statements. I cannot think of any conceivable justification for ANY application to be present for years. That has nothing to do with just or unjust. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpshs1nobG4r.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: About NM and Next Release
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 05:10:24PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: > Interessting analysis. Many things that hold up the release can only be > solved by active and experienced maintainers since the packages are often > essential. New developers can help maintaining them in cooperation with > main developer and get the experience after some time and reading of the > policy, developers reference, lib packaging guide, etc, but having a > sponsor between them and the upload queue is still better. > Someone should point NMs to difficulty of entering the development mainstream of FreeBSD or becoming maintainer for the kernel... IMO it's generally too easy entering in Debian. -- Francesco P. Lovergine
Re: About NM and Next Release
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 05:29:54PM +0300, Halil Demirezen wrote: > I am currently on NM process. And as far as I know, there have been > totally over 700 developer of Debian officially. > > What I would like to point out here is, totally over the world claims > that debian is being obsolete. New releases are so slow. Yes they are > partially right. However, with 700 maintainers, Debian is slow. We would > like to be a part of Debian through NM process. However, NM process > cause a deeply undesireble emotions on applicants because of 2-3 > years wait duration. To me, opposing to the policies Debian is on > progress to be a Mysterious box to the outside world. > > We believe we could be helpful. However, We are trying to be cut off > from that project. Totally this is agaist prejudice on Policies.. and > DFSG. > > Debian Maintainers are becoming too elite. However, outside world becoming > more excluded. And Debian finally is becoming so obsolete. Debian has had a very slow NM process for a very long time, it took over a year for me to be processed when I became DD in July 2000. That was before the new NM queue structure that is in place now. The only people actually waiting that long now (aiui) are people James does not want in the project at all. It would be good to get rid of their applications entirely so that other prospective maintainers don't get the wrong idea that it takes 2-3 years to be processed. Also, it seems like most DD's don't maintain many packages anyway. Yes there are other things that a DD can do other than just maintain packages, like help with web translations, boot floppies, etc. But nearly two thirds of the developers/sponsored developers maintain 4 sources or less [0]. If even half of those 746 maintainers focused on helping close RC bugs we would probably be close to releaseable today. We don't need more people to throw at the problem, we need more people willing to do work for the project. Chris [0] http://www.debian.gr.jp/~kitame/maint.cgi?num=srcs&limit=1300&maint= 1226 Maintainers Total 480 - 4 61% 575 - 3 53% 719 - 2 41% 878 - 1 28%
Re: Should this be filed as grave? Gcc-2.95
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:36:45 -0500 (CDT) Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Branden Robinson wrote: > > (IMO, the kernel ignoring $(CC) is the kernel's problem.) > Don't you know your O doesn't matter, only Steve's? This isn't a matter of opinion. Simple test. When you install the following packages what do you get? exim: bind: python2.2: kernel-image-2.2.20: gcc-2.95: Now, play the old kid's game. "One of these is not like the other, one of these does not belong..." The one that doesn't belong is the one that installs a version of software *other* than what was requested. The one that doesn't belong is the one that does something contrary to every other package out there. That isn't an opinion. That is fact. That is quantifiable. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgpLHvY6eKSdF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: NM non-process
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Steve Lamb wrote: > Actually, I think it does. They should either be accepted or rejected > within x days. x being somewhere below rand(20) * 365. Either they are in, > rejected, or the application closed because of a lack of interest on the > developer's part. So, somewhere between 0 days, and 19*365 days, or 20 years. So, I see no problem then.
