Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Anthony Towns]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 05:53:14PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:59:59 +1000, Martin Pool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
> > For example, at least two people called Hans a troll.  An upstream
> > author expressing concern about the way their code is packaged is
> > not trolling (i.e. making random arguments just to provoke flames.)
>   I find it interesting that you consider a public accusation of
>  plagiarism to be merely "expressing concern". However, I also find
>  your judgment in this horribly tainted, which leads me to place less
>  credence in the rest of your argument, sorry. 

What's that last sentence mean? I can only think of two interpretations:

I don't like you, therefore I think your arguments are wrong.
or
I don't like your conclusion, therefore I think your arguments are
wrong.

Both make for inappropriately fallacious and prejudiced reasoning.

Also, given the degree of hyperbole from developers on -devel, I
don't think it's fair to take cries of "plagiarism" as being anything
particularly out of line.

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

  ``Dear Anthony Towns: [...] Congratulations -- 
you are now certified as a Red Hat Certified Engineer!''


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Re: Problem with fwbuilder on machine without X-Free

[Jeremy T. Bouse]

Well being the fwbuilder maintainer yes this is the correct behavior as
fwbuilder itself doesn't have anything that depends on xauth... I also as a
network administrator for a living, and I do use fwbuilder for my own internal
firewall, don't recommend running it from the firewall itself anyway... I run it
on an internal machine that does run X11 then upload the generated firewall
script to the firewall via scp or sneaker-net...

Regards,
Jeremy

On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 11:17:49PM +0200, Javier Fern?ndez-Sanguino Pe?a wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 08:22:29PM +0100, David Goodenough wrote:
> (...)
> > messages, and it mentioned that it could not find xauth.  So I looked
> > up the package for xauth and that is xbase-clients, and sure enough
> > that had not been dragged in by the dependancy chain for fwbuilder.
>   
> 
> True enough, fwbuilder should not have it.
> 
> > When I installed xbase-clients sure enough fwbuilder worked remotely
> > through ssh -X.
> > 
> > Now I suspect that this is not a problem with fwbuilder's dependancies,
> > but I am not quite sure whose problem it is.
> > 
> > Any ideas?
> 
> Yes:
> $ apt-cache show ssh |grep Suggest
> Suggests: ssh-askpass, xbase-clients, dpkg (>=1.8.3.1), dnsutils
> 
> That's what happens when you rely too much on apt. Suggests are not 
> included in the dependancy chain (of ssh), it's your job to do it. You 
> wouldn't have run into this if you had used 'dselect' or some other apt/dpkg 
> frontend (aptitude would?)
> 
> Regards
> 
> Javi
> 
> 




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Re: [debian-devel] Status of mICQ code audit

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:26:13 +1000, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> Harmful to Debian even if possibly not harmful to the user.  This
> could be clarified in the next DWN article on the topic (now that
> Rudi has started the debate again another DWN article is probably
> due anyway).

I disagree, and I have posted reasons in another message why
 this could be harmful to users as well.

manoj
-- 
If you always postpone pleasure you will never have it.  Quit work and
play for once!
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:10:57 +1000, Anthony Towns  
said: 

> On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 05:53:14PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:59:59 +1000, Martin Pool
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> > For example, at least two people called Hans a troll.  An
>> > upstream author expressing concern about the way their code is
>> > packaged is not trolling (i.e. making random arguments just to
>> > provoke flames.)

>> I find it interesting that you consider a public accusation of
>> plagiarism to be merely "expressing concern". However, I also find
>> your judgment in this horribly tainted, which leads me to place
>> less credence in the rest of your argument, sorry.

> What's that last sentence mean? I can only think of two
> interpretations:

>   I don't like you, therefore I think your arguments are wrong.
> or
>   I don't like your conclusion, therefore I think your arguments
>   are wrong.

Or the blindingly obvious choice: Your blatant spin displays a
 bias so huge that your arguments are no longer credible?


Or are you claiming that public accusations of plagiarization
 are normal expressions of concern? On what planet?

> Both make for inappropriately fallacious and prejudiced reasoning.

And the missing third option doers not fit either category.

> Also, given the degree of hyperbole from developers on -devel, I
> don't think it's fair to take cries of "plagiarism" as being
> anything particularly out of line.

You may be enured to unsubstantiated accusations of
 plagiarism, theft, idiocy, and worse, but please allow me the right of
 umbrage at such.

manoj
-- 
Like a solid rock is not shaken by the wind, so the wise are not moved
by praise or blame. 81
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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getting libvorbis et al. into testing

[Drew Parsons]

My package mirrormagic is held up getting into testing because of
sdl-mixer1.2 [1].  sdl-mixer1.2 in turn is held up by libvorbis [2].

But libvorbis is a valid candidate [3].  I can't see any reason why it isn't
going into testing.  What's wrong?

Drew


[1] http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?excuse=mirrormagic
[2] http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?excuse=sdl-mixer1.2
[3] http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?excuse=libvorbis


-- 
PGP public key available at http://people.debian.org/~dparsons/drewskey.txt
Fingerprint: A110 EAE1 D7D2 8076 5FE0  EC0A B6CE 7041 6412 4E4A


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Re: getting libvorbis et al. into testing

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 04:43:47PM +1000, Drew Parsons wrote:
> My package mirrormagic is held up getting into testing because of
> sdl-mixer1.2 [1].  sdl-mixer1.2 in turn is held up by libvorbis [2].
> 
> But libvorbis is a valid candidate [3].  I can't see any reason why it isn't
> going into testing.  What's wrong?

Basically, there are packages in testing which depends on libvorbis0
(and not the new libvorbis0a) and whose unstable version are not valid
candidates, or have not yet been rebuilt. We had a thread or two abotu
this last week, look at messages around :

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200304/msg01065.html

For more detail.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

Re: getting libvorbis et al. into testing

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 04:43:47PM +1000, Drew Parsons wrote:
> My package mirrormagic is held up getting into testing because of
> sdl-mixer1.2 [1].  sdl-mixer1.2 in turn is held up by libvorbis [2].
> 
> But libvorbis is a valid candidate [3].  I can't see any reason why it isn't
> going into testing.  What's wrong?

or this message, which was the one i wanted to post in the previous mail :

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200304/msg01063.html

Friendly,

Sven Luther

Re: If Debian decides that the Gnu Free Doc License is not free then I will be honored to join Stallman and the FSF in the not free section of your distro

[Anthony DeRobertis]

On Mon, 2003-04-21 at 02:08, Hans Reiser wrote:
> I find it unspeakably ingrateful to Stallman that some of you begrudge 
> him his right to express his (discomforting to some) views to all who 
> use his software, and to ensure that they are not removed by those suits 
> who are discomforted.

Our current activities on the GFDL involve writing up a list of
objections to the license, to present to the FSF. We are doing this
before removing the software from Debian. I think this shows great
respect for Mr. Stallman and the FSF that we are spending a fair amount
of time forming a consensus about what we feel needs changing in the
GFDL, writing that down clearly, and sending it to him, all while
ignoring our own principles, spelled out in the DFSG, in the meantime.

It has nothing to do with wanting to remove the GNU Manifesto from the
EMACS manual; Debian, as a whole, certainly has no hatred of RMS or his
views. We even have a 'vrms' package in the distro. -legal just has a
disagreement with him over some details of the GFDL.

Consider that an Evil Company, say, starting with the letter 'M', could
apparently make its changes to the documentation of a GFDL-licensed
document near-proprietary by adding invariant sections and cover texts
that are unconscionable to the original author. Something like an
invariant section on how the original author's coding style resembles
the intelligence of the infamous paper clip. And a cover text that
"Linux Sucks".

> As far as I am concerned, I have no desire to have ReiserFS distributed 
> for free by anyone who removes the GNU manifesto or similar expressions 
> from Stallman's work (or my own) and redistributes it.  It is simply a 
> matter of respect that is due the author.

That the list of credits was completely removed from reiserfsprogs was
surely a mistake. I'm sure Ed will, or already has, fixed it, given that
Debian may continue to distribute reiserfsprogs. It should of been
included in /usr/share/doc.

However, the 20+ lines of credits on every run of mkreiserfs was
certainly removed on purpose and needed to be. There are a lot of
24-line terminals, not all with scroll back, and that makes a 20+ line
message a major problem. Especially since the time the admin is running
it is probably during major system maintainance or recovery, when stress
is quite high, and where being able to see what he has done already is
quite important. Especially since the credit message, being last would
cause the important technical messages, warnings, errors, etc. to scroll
off screen. 

Should the remove have been done in a different way? Quote possibly. An
alternative that springs to mind would be adding a --credits flag, and a
short (one-line) message to inform the user of that option.

I guess the basic question now is, does the license reiserfsprogs is
distributed under allow the above change?


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Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Atsuhito Kohda]

From: Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:45:44 -0500

>   For example, I set up a Debian machine in a lab with other,
>  non debian machines. I note that all the machines have default
>  texmf.cnf behaviour. No problem, I create a custom texmf.cnf, and
>  distribute it to all machines. 

I don't know how you create texmf.cnf but it would be enough
if you create it in Debian and distribute it to other machines
(but under the condition that you use only compatible TeX 
components which is your case, perhaps).

But it seems you dislike it by some reason or other and they 
are your machines so it's okay how you treat them and to complain 
or to file a bug as you like.

>   Every other machine works. But the Debian box, despite having
>  my nice, fancy, /etc/texmf.cnf, does not pay any attention to it.

Ditto.

>   Hmm. Red Hat Works. Suse Works. Solaris Works. Debian fails.
>  Why does Debian have to be incompatible? I say this is a bug.

Ditto.

Because RedHat, for example, is a comercial distribution so 
RedHat would be designed from the biginning what TeX components 
it would include, therefore a static texmf.cnf worked.  Further, 
RedHat doesn't have something similar to our policy, perhaps, 
so it can modify texmf.cnf freely if necessary, I guess.  
(Correct me if I misunderstand RedHat.  I've never used it.)

On the other hands, in Debian which is an association of 
volunteers, a developer can package any DFSG-free TeX components 
or DFSG-free extra fonts packages freely so we need an infra-structure
which provides dynamic texmf.cnf etc. so that every such extra 
packages can modify texmf.cnf in order that they could be installed and 
work without problem.  I believe this is our (tetex-mantainers') duty.

From: Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:48:14 -0500

>  In he old
>  scheme, my changes were never lost. 

If you like the old scheme, it is possible only if policy 
doesn't forbid to modify a conffile, texmf.cnf, by packages' 
scripts.  (In fact, some packages did it before.)

BTW, does policy force us that our configurations should be
compatible with those of RedHat? 

Thanks,  2003-4-23(Wed)

-- 
 Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian
 Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Department of Math., Tokushima Univ.

Re: Non-debian running DD's (Was: Re: stop abusing debconf already)

[Anthony DeRobertis]

On Mon, 2003-04-21 at 08:58, LapTop006 wrote:
> I use both Mutt and OE to read my E-mail (mostly mutt). The one feature
> OE has (on both mac and windows) that NO other client I've seen matches
> (Mozilla 1.0 came close, haven't tried since then) is its support for
> offline IMAP.

Try Mac OS X's "Mail" program. It has at least as good offline support
as OE, and is much nicer, too.

/me wishes "Mail" were free.


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Re: why do we care about configuration files?

[Anthony DeRobertis]

On Sat, 2003-04-19 at 22:36, Darren Salt wrote:
> I demand that Anthony DeRobertis may or may not have written...

> >3) After prompting, the package must confirm that the current md5sum
> >   matches the one stored in /var. If it does and the package succeeded
> >   at (2) it may replace the configuration file. Otherwise, use ucf.
> 
> 5) Said user happens finds your message and some followups, and agrees that
> you were probably too tired to think straight... ;-)

I think you missed the "confirm that the current md5sum matches..." part
above, or I'm still too tired to think straight? Hmmm...
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:anthony$ date
Wed Apr 23 04:15:11 EDT 2003
never a good sign...


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Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Tore Anderson]

* Atsuhito Kohda

> I don't know how you create texmf.cnf but it would be enough
> if you create it in Debian and distribute it to other machines

  Jesus.  You still haven't got the point.  Repeat after me:
 "I am *NOT* permitted to make that decision on behalf of the user."

 > On the other hands, in Debian which is an association of 
 > volunteers, a developer can package any DFSG-free TeX components 
 > or DFSG-free extra fonts packages freely so we need an infra-structure
 > which provides dynamic texmf.cnf etc. so that every such extra 
 > packages can modify texmf.cnf in order that they could be installed and 
 > work without problem.  I believe this is our (tetex-mantainers') duty.

  I'm not a TeX user, but why can't you have a /etc/texmf.d/ directory
 where the other packages can drop their texmf.cnf fragments (like
 logrotate has, for instance), which is then included from the static
 texmf.cnf?

-- 
Tore Anderson

Who b0rked my Ghostscript and fonts?

[Juhapekka Tolvanen]

I have Debian Woody with gazillion packages from testing and unstable.

Recently Ghostscript has worked very unreliably. For example ps2pdf
gives this kind of errors:

Error: /invalidfont in findfont
Operand stack:
   Fg   139   --nostringval--   1290   10   --nostringval--   1290   6
--nostringval--   2367   98   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   3
3874.36   Palatino-Bold   Font   Palatino-Bold   601248   Palatino-Bold
--nostringval--   Helvetica-Bold   NimbusSanL-Bold   (NimbusSanL-Bold)
NimbusSanL-Bold   (NimbusSanL-Bold)   NimbusSanL-Bold
Execution stack:
   %interp_exit   .runexec2   --nostringval--   --nostringval--
   %--nostringval--   2   %stopped_push   --nostringval--
   %--nostringval--   --nostringval--   false   1   %stopped_push   1
   %3   %oparray_pop   1   3   %oparray_pop   1   3   %oparray_pop
   %.runexec2   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   2
   %%stopped_push   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   16   4
   %%oparray_pop   17   4   %oparray_pop   --nostringval--
   %--nostringval--   --nostringval--   --nostringval--
   %--nostringval--   false   1   %stopped_push   20   5   %oparray_pop
   %--nostringval--   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   5   -1   1
   %--nostringval--   %for_neg_int_continue   --nostringval--
   %--nostringval--
Dictionary stack:
   --dict:1040/1476(ro)(G)--   --dict:0/20(G)--   --dict:71/200(L)--
--dict:101/300(L)--   --dict:17/17(ro)(G)--   --dict:1040/1476(ro)(G)--
Current allocation mode is local
Last OS error: 2
Current file position is 121689
GNU Ghostscript 6.53: Unrecoverable error, exit code 1

It seems, that if I use gv to watch PostScript files, that have some of
those standard fonts of PostScript, it does not success. Only
PostScript-files with Computer Modern or other fonts in METAFONT-format
can be watched with gv.

I even downgraded gs, psfontmgr and some other packages to that version,
that comes with stable Debian, and it did not help at all.

 * * *

There is some other weird things going on, too. If I install font
packages like ttf-dustin and ttf-bitstream-vera , I can't see those
fonts with xfontsel. All fontconfig-aware programs, like Mozilla, can
use them, of course. I had to do this to make those fonts available to
non-fontconfig-aware software, like rxvt:

/etc/X11/XF86Config-4 has this kind of font-paths:

Section "Files"
FontPath"unix/:7100"# local font server
# if the local font server has problems, we can fall back on
# these
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/:unscaled"
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/:unscaled"
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Type1"
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/TrueType"
FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/freefont"
FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera"
FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/dustin"
FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/openoffice"
FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/thryomanes"
FontPath"/usr/local/fonts/TrueType"
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi"
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi"
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc"
FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo"
#   FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic"
EndSection

Then I did this (under zsh):

cd /usr/share/fonts/truetype
for f in ./*(/) ; do ; echo $f ; cd $f ; ttmkfdir -o fonts.scale ; mkfontdir ; 
chmod ugo+r ./* ; cd .. ; done
chmod -R ugo+rX *

So, who b0rked my Ghostscript and fonts?

P.S: I don't subscribe to list. Cc: to me.

-- 
Juhapekka "naula" Tolvanen * * http colon slash slash iki dot fi slash juhtolv
"Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur,
adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et
dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem."  Cicero

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Brian May]

On Mon, Apr 21, 2003 at 10:34:14PM -0700, David Nusinow wrote:
> You're forgetting that we don't really know what Reiser's intentions
> are. His complaints don't address anything specific, but instead throw
> out terms like plagiarism and bowdlerization in order to avoid listing
> specific complaints. Reiser didn't discuss this with the maintainer and
> come to an agreement, but instead threw a hissy fit accusing the whole
> project of some abstract crimes. We don't know if the problem is due to
> the accidental removal of the credits list from the documentation, or

Regardless of what the compliants are, I would hope that the next
version of the package (regardless of if it appears in main or non-free)
has *this* credits list put back in it.

I believe this aspect to be entirely non-controversial, and that it
needs to get fixed ASAP, regardless of what the outcome with the other
issues might be.

I think it was purely an oversight, and in no way intended. It should
also be easy to fix.
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Emile van Bergen]

Hi,

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 04:45:11PM +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote:

> On the other hands, in Debian which is an association of 
> volunteers, a developer can package any DFSG-free TeX components 
> or DFSG-free extra fonts packages freely so we need an infra-structure
> which provides dynamic texmf.cnf etc. so that every such extra 
> packages can modify texmf.cnf in order that they could be installed and 
> work without problem.  I believe this is our (tetex-mantainers') duty.

Dynamic TeX package registration is nice, but not through the main
texmf.cnf if people feel that's intended for the admin and the admin
only.

Why not put the dynamic things in a file like texmf-debian.cnf, and tell
the admin that if he wants to use newly installed packages
automatically, he should include texmf-debian.cnf from the main
texmf.cnf (if including is possible at all -- no idea) or make his
texmf.cnf a symlink to the texmf-debian.cnf?

I.e. have a fully managed file, but leave it to the admin whether or not
his real file points to the managed file, or includes it (if possible),
or ignores it altogether.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl


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Re: debconf review of cvsd (was Re: stop abusing debconf already)

[Brian May]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2003 at 12:12:38PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> cvsd.conf is a trivial config file to parse and modify from what I can
> see. 
> 
>   port=`sed -n 's/^Port *\([^ ]*\).*$/\1/p' < /etc/cvsd/cvsd.conf`
>   
> That's a reasonable way to get any value from it. I'm glad you do this

What about writing values?

I imagine that changing the value of port might be
as simple as:

sed 's/^Port .*$/Port xyz/g' < /etc/cvsd/cvsd.conf > /etc/cvsd/cvsd.conf.new
mv /etc/cvsd/cvsd.conf.new /etc/cvsd/cvsd.conf

(not tested).

However, what if (and I haven't looked at cvsd; some
of my examples may not make sense for cvsd):

- There is more then one Port setting? (its probably illegal
here). Do you change all of them, or only the first one, or
what?

- There is no Port setting and one needs to be added? Is it OK
to blindly add at the end of the file, or should a script try
some black magic to work out the best spot?

- Adding a port setting destroys the config, because the adminstrator
deliberatly deleted that setting for some reason (I am assuming this
would mean something, eg. only bind to a UNIX stream socket, for
instance).

- The system adminstrator accidently or deliberately commented out the
port setting, and puts it back in and finds it doesn't do anything,
because a new port setting has been added to the end and has overriden
the first setting without giving any errors or warnings?

Now thats a lot of "ifs". ;-).

I am just curious though on what how other developers
feel that these situations should be handled.
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Brian May]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 09:41:34AM +0100, Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS wrote:
> If the copyright holder includes a copy of the GPL but writes that the
> software is licensed under the GPL plus additional restrictions, then
> this is not "illegal" as far as I know (there's nothing in the GPL
> that prevents it from being used in this way). Of course, the
> resulting licence is not compatibile with the GPL, so if the program
> were linked with other GPL software Debian could not distribute it.

Quoting README, in particular the entire LICENSING section:


[509] [scrooge:bam] ~/tmp/woody/reiserfsprogs/reiserfsprogs-3.6.4 
>dpkg-parsechangelog | grep '^Version: '
Version: 1:3.6.4-4
[503] [scrooge:bam] ~/tmp/woody/reiserfsprogs/reiserfsprogs-3.6.4 >cat README 
[LICENSING] 

ReiserFS is hereby licensed under the GNU General
Public License version 2.

Source code files that contain the phrase "licensing governed by
reiserfs/README" are "governed files" throughout this file.  Governed
files are licensed under the GPL.  The portions of them owned by Hans
Reiser, or authorized to be licensed by him, have been in the past,
and likely will be in the future, licensed to other parties under
other licenses.  If you add your code to governed files, and don't
want it to be owned by Hans Reiser, put your copyright label on that
code so the poor blight and his customers can keep things straight.
All portions of governed files not labeled otherwise are owned by Hans
Reiser, and by adding your code to it, widely distributing it to
others or sending us a patch, and leaving the sentence in stating that
licensing is governed by the statement in this file, you accept this.
It will be a kindness if you identify whether Hans Reiser is allowed
to license code labeled as owned by you on your behalf other than
under the GPL, because he wants to know if it is okay to do so and put
a check in the mail to you (for non-trivial improvements) when he
makes his next sale.  He makes no guarantees as to the amount if any,
though he feels motivated to motivate contributors, and you can surely
discuss this with him before or after contributing.  You have the
right to decline to allow him to license your code contribution other
than under the GPL.

Further licensing options are available for commercial and/or other
interests directly from Hans Reiser: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  If you interpret
the GPL as not allowing those additional licensing options, you read
it wrongly, and Richard Stallman agrees with me, when carefully read
you can see that those restrictions on additional terms do not apply
to the owner of the copyright, and my interpretation of this shall
govern for this license.  

Finally, nothing in this license shall be interpreted to allow you to
fail to fairly credit me, or to remove my credits, without my
permission, unless you are an end user not redistributing to others.
If you have doubts about how to properly do that, or about what is
fair, ask.  (Last I spoke with him Richard was contemplating how best
to address the fair crediting issue in the next GPL version.)

[END LICENSING]
--- cut ---

I am no lawyer, but reading up to here I am a bit confused if it is
GPL+interpretation or GPL+extension.

Personally I don't see any problems with the above text, but the
standard I-am-not-a-lawyer disclaimer applies.

It is also not defined what he is referring to when he talks about
his credits, I would assume he means the rest of the details from the
remainder of the README file. I thought that the existing version of the
GPL already catered for this, but it appears I might be mistaken.
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Denis Barbier]

On Mon, Apr 21, 2003 at 09:00:06PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:36:01 +0200, Denis Barbier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
> 
> > I wondered whether this use of ucf is safe.  If postinst fails for
> > any reason, and package is reconfigured, the backup file is
> > overwritten.  An alternative is to abort postinst if -old already
> > exists, and to remove it when postinst finishes.  Isn't this safer?
> 
>   Well, I don't use proftpd, and I have blown away the downloaded
>  package. Lets see.
> 
>   From what I recall, you had a single function where the
>  configuration file was replaced, and that used ucf. Let us handle the
>  trivial cases first
[snip]
>   Can you postulate qa scenario where ucf would cause user data
>  to be lost?

No, your analysis looks fine to me, thanks.
I am now convinced that ucf is a great tool to manage configuration
files, I hope it will support asking questions via debconf very soon.

Denis

Re: Recently orphaned packages

[Martin Michlmayr]

* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-04-21 16:54]:
> Here's a listing of packages I orphaned recently.  If you're
> interested in any, check the bug report if the package is still
> available and retitle the bug (see http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp
> for instructions).

and:

Bug#190188: O: bbppp -- PPP tool for the blackbox window manager
Bug#190194: O: verilog-mode -- Emacs mode for verilog language
Bug#190195: O: qbrew -- homebrew recipe calculator
Bug#190191: O: bbtime -- Time tool for the blackbox window manager
Bug#190189: O: bbsload -- System load tool for the blackbox window manager
Bug#190193: O: libgeo-metar-perl -- Geo::METAR, Accessing Aviation Weather 
Information with Perl
Bug#190190: O: bbdate -- Date tool for the blackbox window manager
Bug#190192: O: grdb -- Gnome capplet for the grdb program

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Debian-Lex] Packages and helpers for Linux for lawyers sub-project

[Jeremy Malcolm]

As you may have noticed, Debian-Lex, the nascent Debian-for-lawyers
sub-project, made DWN today, and I've had some expressions of interest
off-list from that.  We're still not officially launched yet though,
until the list people create a list for us, so debian-devel will remain
the point of contact until then.

I'm also cc'ing debian-users on this mail because I am sure there are
some non-developer lawyers who will be interested in getting involved,
and I'm bcc'ing about a dozen upstream maintainers of packages that are
proposed for inclusion in the project, but who might not want their
addresses on Usenet.  For these and others who came in late, our URL is
http://people.debian.org/~terminus/debian-lex (until we are official and
the Web people give us some proper space).

So for starters we're mainly interested in what DFSG free packages are
out there for lawyers, courts or legal administrators, that I don't
already know about, that we can look at packaging into Debian-Lex.  The
current list (including, however, a number of vaporware packages) is
found on the Web site.  It also includes a few non legal-specific
packages, but this needs to be fleshed out.

Of the packages that are not vaporware and not already in Debian, I
intend to package some of them myself, and I'm cc'ing the maintainers
who have ITP'd GnoTime and SQL-Ledger to see if they have any news on
their progress.  One thing I am not confident at is PHP, so it would be
good to have someone on board who can evaluate the PHP-based packages
for possible inclusion and to package them if they come up to scratch.

We are also interested in hearing about forms, templates, schemata, and
documentation in use by lawyers with free software that can be packaged
to support the main packages, and I already have a bundle of
OpenOffice.org templates for the Family Law courts in Australia to start
us off in this regard, and a set of SQL-Ledger accounts (including
scripts to import time data from GnoTime).

There are many other things to get going on but these are for starters.
Also, we need to start the ball rolling in order to convince the powers
that be to make us official. :-)  Volunteers to help?

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au
Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au)
and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help!
Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger.



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Re: [Debian-Lex] Packages and helpers for Linux for lawyers sub-project

[Stephen Hargrove]

Hi Jeremy.  I'm an attorney, but I'm no longer active.  I'm working as a
system administrator for Texas Tech Health Sciences Center
(http://www.ttuhsc.edu) in Lubbock, Texas.  I've been using Linux since
1996, and specifically Debian since 2001.  I actively script with Perl
(since 1998) and PHP (1999) and am currently learning C++.  I'm not a
Debian Developer (yet -- I have aspirations, but just can't get a damned
package built), but I'm interested in your Debian-Lex project.

I haven't actively practiced law since 10.2001.  However, when I did
practice, I was active on the American Bar Association's LawTech email
list and various others.  My wife works in the legal field (she is a
legal secretary) and many of my friends are attorneys, so I've managed
to maintain a connection to the field and related technologies.

I subscribe to debian-devel, but believe that I quite often miss out on
what I consider to be important threads simply because I have _way_ too
much email.  I simply can't keep up.  I'll be watching for anything
concerning Debian-Lex, but in the event you don't hear from me, please
contact me.  I'd like to see what it is that I can contribute to your
project.

Thanks for your time, and good luck to you.
-- 
steve
 ___
|   |
| There's a difference between being grumpy and |
| hating every little fucker in existence.  |
|   |
| http://monticello.biz : technology that works |
| http://exitwound.org  : hard to find  |
| http://buckowensfan.com   : he's the man  |
 ---


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Re: [Debian-Lex] Packages and helpers for Linux for lawyers sub-project

[Michael Banck]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 07:43:50PM +0800, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
> We're still not officially launched yet though, until the list people
> create a list for us, so debian-devel will remain the point of contact
> until then.

Well, you can always create a list on Alioth for the time being. No need
to hold off development.

Michael

Re: curl, testing and gcc-3.2 (?) (was Re: Debian curl package depends on gcc-3.2?)

[Domenico Andreoli]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 11:45:08PM +0200, Bj?rn Stenberg wrote:
> Colin Watson wrote:
> > The reason why a library's shlibs get changed
> > is that binaries built against one version of the library can't be
> > guaranteed to run correctly against older versions.
> 
> Because the interface changed or because the previous version was buggy?
> 
> I have always assumed the first reason, but it seems many maintainers are
> using the second.
> 
first reason, interface changes.

libcurl provides a function (curl_easy_setopt) which is used to set
options for the run. if new options are added i have to change shlibs,
i cannot know whether a program linking the new libcurl uses any new
option.  hence, i cannot allow its installation with an older libcurl.


-[ Domenico Andreoli, aka cavok
 --[ http://filibusta.crema.unimi.it/~cavok/gpgkey.asc
   ---[ 3A0F 2F80 F79C 678A 8936  4FEE 0677 9033 A20E BC50

Re: Non-debian running DD's (Was: Re: stop abusing debconf already)

[Simon Law]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 04:01:35AM -0400, Anthony DeRobertis wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-04-21 at 08:58, LapTop006 wrote:
> > I use both Mutt and OE to read my E-mail (mostly mutt). The one feature
> > OE has (on both mac and windows) that NO other client I've seen matches
> > (Mozilla 1.0 came close, haven't tried since then) is its support for
> > offline IMAP.
> 
> Try Mac OS X's "Mail" program. It has at least as good offline support
> as OE, and is much nicer, too.
> 
> /me wishes "Mail" were free.

Please hack on GNUMail.app.  It is in the gnumail package.

Simon

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 02:53:38PM +1000, Martin Pool wrote:
> Some people here apparently delight in pissing off upstream authors
> who object to the way their software is modified.  There are plenty of
> posts saying that Debian can do what it likes, and precious few
> acknowledging that Hans ought to have any say in what is done to the
> software he wrote.  
> 
> Authors have a moral right (and a legal one in some places) not to
> have their work mutilated.

At the same time, upstream authors need to recognise the job that Debian
does: integrates components to build a complete operating system. That
means modifications of various types, like modifying paths and in this
case messages. You may not be thinking of the whole target system when 
working on your one program/tool.


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Marcelo E. Magallon]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 04:45:11PM +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote:

 > I don't know how you create texmf.cnf but it would be enough if you
 > create it in Debian and distribute it to other machines (but under
 > the condition that you use only compatible TeX components which is
 > your case, perhaps).

 WTF?

 You are not allowed to overwrite the system administrator's
 modifications.

 Do you understand that?

 You can't just decide that you are allowed to take over the fscking
 file.

 Can you understand that?

 Go check how update-modules works.  (which is not perfect, but it's at
 any rate much better than update-texmf)

 Did you read that file?  What are you waiting for then?

 > But it seems you dislike it by some reason or other and they are your
 > machines so it's okay how you treat them and to complain or to file a
 > bug as you like.

 You are joking, right?

 > >Hmm. Red Hat Works. Suse Works. Solaris Works. Debian fails.
 > >  Why does Debian have to be incompatible? I say this is a bug.
 > 
 > Ditto.

 "Ditto"... what?

 Marcelo

Re: If Debian decides that the Gnu Free Doc License is not free then I will be honored to join Stallman and the FSF in the not free section of your distro

[Hans Reiser]

Anthony DeRobertis wrote:
Consider that an Evil Company, say, starting with the letter 'M', could
apparently make its changes to the documentation of a GFDL-licensed
document near-proprietary by adding invariant sections and cover texts
that are unconscionable to the original author. Something like an
invariant section on how the original author's coding style resembles
the intelligence of the infamous paper clip. And a cover text that
"Linux Sucks".
Why is this a problem? Seems to me that it is their right to do so, if 
they make a contribution that nobody else wants to be without, they have 
earned the moral right to insult the original author.


--
Hans

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Hans Reiser]

Ed has graciously agreed to restore the credits, and I thank Debian for 
its respect for the wishes of the original author in regards to 
prominently crediting those who have contributed.

--
Hans

Re: If Debian decides that the Gnu Free Doc License is not free then I will be honored to join Stallman and the FSF in the not free section of your distro

[Anthony DeRobertis]

On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 11:00, Hans Reiser wrote:
> Anthony DeRobertis wrote:
> > [...] could
> >apparently make its changes to the documentation of a GFDL-licensed
> >document near-proprietary by adding invariant sections and cover texts
> >that are unconscionable to the original author. [...]

(Note: I gave a specific example that involved insulting the original
author of the software)

> Why is this a problem? [...]

At least too me, it seems to defeat the purpose of copyleft. If I didn't
mind if the document was made such that I couldn't use the
modifications, I would license it under a much simpler, much more direct
license like the MIT X11 one. Or just disclaim copyright interest in it
(i.e., put it in the public domain).

If I were to use the GFDL, my choices would be to not be able to use the
changes (so much for copyleft) or start an invariant section war, where
I add an invariant rebuttal.

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Anthony DeRobertis]

On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 11:17, Hans Reiser wrote:
> Ed has graciously agreed to restore the credits, and I thank Debian for 
> its respect for the wishes of the original author in regards to 
> prominently crediting those who have contributed.

I'm very happy to hear that this has been resolved amicably.

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Andreas Barth]

* Glenn Maynard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030422 05:50]:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 12:25:39PM +1000, Martin Pool wrote:

> > banner at startup is inconvenient.  However just cutting it out is not
> > a good way to resolve the bug.  The maintainer made a mistake here.
> > It ought to be obvious that removing a author/sponsor notice would be
> > likely to offend.
 
> It's not obvious.  Removing a sponsorship notice is something I'd do without
> a second thought; it's nothing more than advertisement and it's just as
> annoying to me as a banner ad.

I object: There is always a cause why a certain message is output. A
debian maintainer should (morally) at least ask what the upstream
maintainer thinks about removing the sponsorship message and remove it
against the will of the upstream maintainer only in very rare cases
after appropriate discussions within the debian project. Everything
else is at least very unfriendly. (I'm not speaking formally whether
the removal is allowed, and consequences for the freedomsnes of the
software in respect to debians guidelines. That's a totally different
discussion.)


Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
   Fachbegriffe des Schienenverkehrs #1 von Marc Haber in dasr
   Alles wird billiger: 50 % Preiserhöhung für Stammkunden.

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Andreas Barth]

* David Nusinow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030422 08:05]:
> So, ultimately, what harm does this do to the author? If all he cares
> about is his reputation, then he's certaintly not doing a good job of
> bolstering it in this particular forum. He's not representing his
> sponsors very well either.

Can't you understand that as an author you would like that messages
like this are not removed without your consent? The internet
robustness principle says: Be liberal in what you accept and
conservative in what you send. Modifiying code is sending, and
therefore the debian-maintainers should be conservative in making
changes against the will of the upstream maintainers. (Formally
everytihn is different. But the world doesn't work with only viewing
the formal points.)

Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
   Fachbegriffe des Schienenverkehrs #1 von Marc Haber in dasr
   Alles wird billiger: 50 % Preiserhöhung für Stammkunden.

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Andreas Barth]

* Steve Langasek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030422 08:35]:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 02:53:38PM +1000, Martin Pool wrote:
> > Authors have a moral right (and a legal one in some places) not to
> > have their work mutilated.

> You can assert a moral right to control how your work is used, or you
> can write Free Software.  You don't get to do both at once.

You can. The _moral_ right is compatible with free software, the
_formal_ right not. (And in some, rare cases the moral right is
ignored. mkreiserfs could be a place like that. But that doesn't stop
the moral right in general.)


Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
   Fachbegriffe des Schienenverkehrs #1 von Marc Haber in dasr
   Alles wird billiger: 50 % Preiserhöhung für Stammkunden.

x86-64 mailing list

[Robert Millan]

CCing debian-devel..

hi!

as noticed in DWN [1] and debian-devel [2], Arnd Bergmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
has actualy started work [3] on the x86-64 port by using Bochs' x86-64
emulation.

it's likely that debian-x86-64 developement discussions start to come up
soon, so it'd be interesting if this list (#162668, New Mailinglist
debian-x86-64) could be created soon (so that debian-devel is not crappled
with x86-64 stuff).

[1] http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2003/16/
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200304/msg00978.html
[3] http://www.arndb.de/debian/

-- 
Robert Millan

make: *** No rule to make target `war'.  Stop.

Another world is possible - Just say no to genocide

Re: If Debian decides that the Gnu Free Doc License is not free then I will be honored to join Stallman and the FSF in the not free section of your distro

[Wouter Verhelst]

Op wo 23-04-2003, om 17:00 schreef Hans Reiser:
> Anthony DeRobertis wrote:
> 
> >
> >Consider that an Evil Company, say, starting with the letter 'M', could
> >apparently make its changes to the documentation of a GFDL-licensed
> >document near-proprietary by adding invariant sections and cover texts
> >that are unconscionable to the original author. Something like an
> >invariant section on how the original author's coding style resembles
> >the intelligence of the infamous paper clip. And a cover text that
> >"Linux Sucks".
> >
> Why is this a problem? Seems to me that it is their right to do so, if 
> they make a contribution that nobody else wants to be without, they have 
> earned the moral right to insult the original author.

Well, it's your right to think so. But you have to understand that not
everyone feels that way; the fact that the GFDL can potentially be
abused into making the manual non-free *is* a problem.

In fact, this whole argument started because 'someone' felt insulted.

-- 
wouter at grep dot be
"An expert can usually spot the difference between a fake charge and a
full one, but there are plenty of dead experts." 
  -- National Geographic Channel, in a documentary about large African beasts.


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Request for Clue: i18n of fortune-esque things

[Joel Baker]

So, as some of you may remember, after a discussion on debian-devel about
wanting some way to give a "tip of the day" or similar functionality for
new (and sometimes used.. er... experienced) Debian users, I did an ITP for
fortunes-debian-hints. It's now in testing (or so the PTS would lead me to
believe), and has a small, if hopefully useful, seed of hints. (Speaking
of which, folks should feel encouraged to submit more - I have a mild
preference for using the BTS, but email to my @d.o address will suffice if
you're only doing 1 or 2 and want to avoid hassling with it).

What I was wondering is whether there is a way to do translations of
the fortune data, without having to have 'fortunes-debian-hints-'
packages. Granted, I probably won't be able to do much useful about
translating them, myself, but I'd like to at least know if it's doable to
support such a thing.
-- 
Joel Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Who b0rked my Ghostscript and fonts?

[Michael Fedrowitz]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 12:02:00PM +0300, Juhapekka Tolvanen wrote:

 Hi,

dunno about your gs problems, but...

> There is some other weird things going on, too. If I install font
> packages like ttf-dustin and ttf-bitstream-vera , I can't see those
> fonts with xfontsel. All fontconfig-aware programs, like Mozilla, can
> use them, of course. I had to do this to make those fonts available to
> non-fontconfig-aware software, like rxvt:

[...]
> FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/freefont"
> FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera"
> FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/dustin"
> FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/openoffice"
> FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/thryomanes"

Don't do this. Install x-ttcidfont-conf and add
/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType to your font paths
instead. (Which almost every font package's README.Debian tells you to
do, btw.)

> cd /usr/share/fonts/truetype
> for f in ./*(/) ; do ; echo $f ; cd $f ; ttmkfdir -o fonts.scale ; mkfontdir 
> ; chmod ugo+r ./* ; cd .. ; done
> chmod -R ugo+rX *

No need, x-ttcidfont-conf will take care of this for you.

-Michael

Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:45:11 +0900 (JST), Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
said: 

> From: Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re:
> Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant) Date: Mon, 21 Apr
> 2003 20:45:44 -0500

>> For example, I set up a Debian machine in a lab with other, non
>> debian machines. I note that all the machines have default
>> texmf.cnf behaviour. No problem, I create a custom texmf.cnf, and
>> distribute it to all machines.

> I don't know how you create texmf.cnf but it would be enough if you
> create it in Debian and distribute it to other machines (but under
> the condition that you use only compatible TeX components which is
> your case, perhaps).

No, since the Debian admin is not in charge. This is an
 established lab, with Debian trying to make inroads. If Debian
 is not inter-operable, it is useless.

I am boggled at the Microsoft like insistence that sure, we
 are not inter-operable with the rest of the world, but if the rest of
 the world lets us take charge, and follow the Debian way, they shall
 be enlightened.

What is the other TeTeX installations on these machines also
 had non standard procedures for configuration? 

Right now, Debian is not compatible with the other TeTeX
 installs, and this is a bug. 

> But it seems you dislike it by some reason or other and they are
> your machines so it's okay how you treat them and to complain or to
> file a bug as you like.

>> Every other machine works. But the Debian box, despite having my
>> nice, fancy, /etc/texmf.cnf, does not pay any attention to it.

> Ditto.

Yes, this is a Debian bug.

>> Hmm. Red Hat Works. Suse Works. Solaris Works. Debian fails.  Why
>> does Debian have to be incompatible? I say this is a bug.

> Ditto.

Yes, this is a Debian bug.

> Because RedHat, for example, is a comercial distribution so RedHat
> would be designed from the biginning what TeX components it would
> include, therefore a static texmf.cnf worked.  Further, RedHat
> doesn't have something similar to our policy, perhaps, so it can
> modify texmf.cnf freely if necessary, I guess.  (Correct me if I
> misunderstand RedHat.  I've never used it.)

It does not matter why they did not break compatibility; we
 did. And I can coime up with half a dozen mechanisms, including using
 ucf, that creates working, compatible, inter-operable,  solutions.

I am surprised you can't seem to think of even one of these.

> From: Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re:
> Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant) Date: Mon, 21 Apr
> 2003 20:48:14 -0500

>> In he old scheme, my changes were never lost.

> If you like the old scheme, it is possible only if policy doesn't
> forbid to modify a conffile, texmf.cnf, by packages' scripts.  (In
> fact, some packages did it before.)

> BTW, does policy force us that our configurations should be
> compatible with those of RedHat?

No, common sense does. Not all bugs are policy violations. And
 this is not just Red Hat. It is _any_ other TeTeX installation,
 since I mentioned more than Red Hat in this DARPA lab.

manoj
-- 
If you want to see card tricks, you have to expect to take
cards. Harry Blackstone
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Postpone GFDL flamewar, please!

[Glenn Maynard]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 07:00:32PM +0400, Hans Reiser wrote:
> Why is this a problem? Seems to me that it is their right to do so, if 
> they make a contribution that nobody else wants to be without, they have 
> earned the moral right to insult the original author.

This has all been debated at length on debian-legal.  I'd recommend waiting
on this flamewar for the time being; debian-legal is still preparing
detailed information on this issue, in the hopes that if the repeat
discussions/flamewars can't be prevented, they can at least not start from
scratch.  It's not quite ready to be dragged out onto debian-devel, as
the existing arguments are still scattered among hundreds of messages.

-- 
Glenn Maynard

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Glenn Maynard]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 05:35:48PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> I object: There is always a cause why a certain message is output. A
> debian maintainer should (morally) at least ask what the upstream
> maintainer thinks about removing the sponsorship message and remove it
> against the will of the upstream maintainer only in very rare cases
> after appropriate discussions within the debian project. Everything

I'm merely defending the actions of the maintainer: it's not obvious to
me that summarily removing a clearly objectionable 24-line sponsorship
message is objectionable, as long as actual author credits (copyright
notices) remain.

I'm willing to disagree on this.

(And, although Hans says the issue was resolved, I still don't believe
he's said publically exactly which issue we've been talking about ...)

-- 
Glenn Maynard

Autobuilder locale setup

[Roger Leigh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

During a package build, I need to produce translated files using
gettext.  By this, I mean using the .mo files at build-time to produce
sets of translated PPD files.  (I know this is ugly, but it's the only
way to localise static data files.)

This works fine when the locales exist for each localisation, but if
they don't exist, it defaults to C locale/US-ASCII charset.  Can the
autobuilders guarantee a full set of generated locales, or is only C
available?


Thanks,
Roger

- -- 
Roger Leigh

Printing on GNU/Linux?  http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/
GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 available on public keyservers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.6 

iEYEARECAAYFAj6mggoACgkQVcFcaSW/uEh81gCgwjG+MTRoLWh4t0RiiVFMJznE
vpIAoJ2uCt2ny+YzhYJV1JzBVbaafXbT
=WgXD
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Mark Rafn]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Brian May wrote:

> Quoting README, in particular the entire LICENSING section:

[Snip text about Hans Reiser assuming the right to re-license contributed 
work if it's not clearly labelled otherwise.  I don't have an opinion on 
the legality of it, but it doesn't sound non-free to me.]

README> Finally, nothing in this license shall be interpreted to allow you
README> to fail to fairly credit me, or to remove my credits, without my
README> permission, unless you are an end user not redistributing to
README> others.  If you have doubts about how to properly do that, or about
README> what is fair, ask.  (Last I spoke with him Richard was
README> contemplating how best to address the fair crediting issue in the
README> next GPL version.)

> On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 09:41:34AM +0100, Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS wrote:
> I am no lawyer, but reading up to here I am a bit confused if it is
> GPL+interpretation or GPL+extension.

IANAL either, but this seems clearly to be an additional restriction over 
and above the GPL 2c requirement.  It contradicts the statement that the 
code is released under the GPL.

If it contains or links to any GPL code not owned by Hans Reiser, it
appears undistributable.  If it is wholly-owned, it can be distributed,
but perhaps in non-free.  It depends on further interpretation of "fail to
fairly credit or remove my credits".

> It is also not defined what he is referring to when he talks about
> his credits, I would assume he means the rest of the details from the
> remainder of the README file. I thought that the existing version of the
> GPL already catered for this, but it appears I might be mistaken.

Credits in the README file don't bother me much.  Advertising during 
program execution of a tool or on module load is non-free if it can't be 
changed/removed (within the limits of GPL section 2c).

That said, I'd prefer Debian NOT remove such advertising, only that we 
guarantee users the right to do.
--
Mark Rafn[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Matt Ryan]

[Some dude called Manoj (I think) did produce such utterances recently]
> You may be enured to unsubstantiated accusations of
>  plagiarism, theft, idiocy, and worse, but please allow me the right of
>  umbrage at such.

I apologise for accusing Manoj of having a prune up his rear. It's clear to
me now that this was a disservice to prunes and in fact it's a thesaurus
thats lodged there and is giving him delusions of having a large vocabulary.


Matt.

Re: If Debian decides that the Gnu Free Doc License is not free then I will be honored to join Stallman and the FSF in the not free section of your distro

[Hans Reiser]

Anthony DeRobertis wrote:
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 11:00, Hans Reiser wrote:
 

Anthony DeRobertis wrote:
   

[...] could
apparently make its changes to the documentation of a GFDL-licensed
document near-proprietary by adding invariant sections and cover texts
that are unconscionable to the original author. [...]
 

(Note: I gave a specific example that involved insulting the original
author of the software)
 

Why is this a problem? [...]
   

At least too me, it seems to defeat the purpose of copyleft. If I didn't
mind if the document was made such that I couldn't use the
modifications, I would license it under a much simpler, much more direct
license like the MIT X11 one. Or just disclaim copyright interest in it
(i.e., put it in the public domain).
If I were to use the GFDL, my choices would be to not be able to use the
changes (so much for copyleft) or start an invariant section war, where
I add an invariant rebuttal.

 

That would give you a lot of incentive to write code that others would 
want to keep.  Sounds good to me.;-)

You have a choice of incentives:
1) money
2) ego
3) none.
You are choosing 3).  I know you won't choose 1).  I suggest you choose 
2), for all the reasons articulated in the Cathedral and the Bazaar.

If you are feeling sympathetic you might consider that persons like me 
are concerned that vendors will strip all information about who wrote 
ReiserFS out except for copyright notices that none of their users will 
see, slap their brand identity onto it, and ship, depriving me of all 
credit for my work on their product.  I say this, because that is 
exactly what slimy marketeers at startups do, and they do it a lot.  
Look at how many companies ripped off squid.

--
Hans

irssi-text - Not quite a release-critical bug

[Wilmer van der Gaast]

Bug 183186 seems to be stopping irss-text 0.8.6 from entering Sarge, but
IMHO the bug is not quite release critical. Botti is just a small part
of irssi, not used by 90% of the package users (at least, I think so).
(Maybe it should be split into a separate package anyway?)

Can this bug be put back to normal priority?

-- 
+ .''`. - -- ---+  + - -- ---  - --+
| lintux : :'  :  lintux.cx |  | Unix and CGI @   IOI/NIO(Dutch)at |
|   at   `. `~'  debian.org |  | www.lintux.cx/   www.algoritme.nl |
+--- -- -  ` ---+  +-- -  --- -- - +


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Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Adam Heath]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Hans Reiser wrote:

> Ed has graciously agreed to restore the credits, and I thank Debian for
> its respect for the wishes of the original author in regards to
> prominently crediting those who have contributed.

Again, what does Debian(as a community/organization) have to do with a
maintainer fixing a minor bug?

RE: Autobuilder locale setup

[Adam Conrad]

Roger Leigh wrote:
> 
> This works fine when the locales exist for each localisation, but if
> they don't exist, it defaults to C locale/US-ASCII charset.  Can the
> autobuilders guarantee a full set of generated locales, or is only C
> available?

Autobuilders don't even have "locales" installed by default, as it's
non-essential, so you certainly can't count on any specific locales being
there, no.  You can, however, generate the locales that you need and make
them available to you during your package build, with some trickery.  See
debian/locale-gen in the gcc-3.2 source package, for instance.

... Adam

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Emile van Bergen]

Hi,

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 10:49:09AM -0700, Mark Rafn wrote:

> That said, I'd prefer Debian NOT remove such advertising, only that we 
> guarantee users the right to do.

*And* distribute the result, if you want to be DFSG-free.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl


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libpng3 upgrade will remove kde development packages

[Josh Metzler]

The new libpng3 (1.2.5.0-1) renames libpng12-0-dev to libpng12-dev, which 
seems to be intentional on the part of the new maintainer.  I have a number 
of kde development packages which depend on libpng12-0-dev, though, and so 
will be removed if I upgrade libpng3.

Transcript:

Shuttle:/home/josh# apt-get -s install libpng3
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libpng12-0
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  kdelibs4-dev kdesdk kspy libarts1-dev libartsc0-dev libpng12-0-dev
  libqt3-mt-dev
The following held packages will be changed:
  libpng12-0 libpng3
2 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 7 to remove and 7  not upgraded.
Remv kdesdk (4:3.1.1-1 Debian:unstable)
Remv kspy (4:3.1.1-1 Debian:unstable)
Remv kdelibs4-dev (4:3.1.1-1 Debian:unstable)
Remv libartsc0-dev (1.1.1-2 Debian:unstable)
Remv libarts1-dev (1.1.1-2 Debian:unstable)
Remv libqt3-mt-dev (3:3.1.1-7 Debian:unstable)
Remv libpng12-0-dev (1.2.5-11 )
Inst libpng3 (1.2.5.0-1 Debian:unstable) []
Inst libpng12-0 (1.2.5.0-1 Debian:unstable)
Conf libpng12-0 (1.2.5.0-1 Debian:unstable)
Conf libpng3 (1.2.5.0-1 Debian:unstable)

Should I file any bugs? If so, against libpng3, or against the other packages?

Thank you,
Josh

Bug#190392: ITP: grub-disk -- GRUB bootable disk image

[Robert Millan]

Package: wnpp
Version: unavailable; reported 2003-04-23
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: grub-disk
  Version : 0.93+cvs20030224.2.1
* URL : http://people.debian.org/~rmh/packages/grub-disk/
* License : GPL
  Description : GRUB bootable disk image

This package contains a GRUB rescue disk. It consists of a bootable
1.44 floppy image you can use to grab a rescue disk or be run in an
i386 emulator, like Bochs.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux aragorn 2.2.22 #1 dl nov 25 21:59:43 CET 2002 i586
Locale: LANG=ca_ES.ISO-8859-1, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ignored: LC_ALL set)

Re: x86-64 mailing list

[Kevin Rosenberg]

Robert Millan wrote:
> it's likely that debian-x86-64 developement discussions start to come up
> soon, so it'd be interesting if this list (#162668, New Mailinglist
> debian-x86-64) could be created soon (so that debian-devel is not crappled
> with x86-64 stuff).

I second this (as I search for an in-stock tyan or msi opteron
motherboard).

-- 
Kevin Rosenberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Request for Clue: i18n of fortune-esque things

[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Joel Baker wrote:

> What I was wondering is whether there is a way to do translations of
> the fortune data, without having to have 'fortunes-debian-hints-'
> packages. Granted, I probably won't be able to do much useful about
> translating them, myself, but I'd like to at least know if it's doable to
> support such a thing.
I just had the idea of translating these hints myself and thus I talked
with Grisu about using the DDTP server for this purpose.  He promised
to think about this ...

Kind regards

   Andreas.

--
Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind.
John F. Kennedy

Re: irssi-text - Not quite a release-critical bug

[David B Harris]

On Wed Apr 23, 09:35pm +0200, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote:
> Bug 183186 seems to be stopping irss-text 0.8.6 from entering Sarge, but
> IMHO the bug is not quite release critical. Botti is just a small part
> of irssi, not used by 90% of the package users (at least, I think so).
> (Maybe it should be split into a separate package anyway?)
> 
> Can this bug be put back to normal priority?

I can't even reproduce it in Sid's Irssi.


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Re: libpng3 upgrade will remove kde development packages

[Junichi Uekawa]

> Should I file any bugs? If so, against libpng3, or against the other packages?

Try filing a grave bug with "gratuous change breaks other software",
against libpng3



regards,
junichi

Re: Autobuilder locale setup

[James Troup]

"Adam Conrad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Roger Leigh wrote:
>> 
>> This works fine when the locales exist for each localisation, but if
>> they don't exist, it defaults to C locale/US-ASCII charset.  Can the
>> autobuilders guarantee a full set of generated locales, or is only C
>> available?
>
> Autobuilders don't even have "locales" installed by default, as it's
> non-essential, so you certainly can't count on any specific locales being
> there, no.  You can, however, generate the locales that you need and make
> them available to you during your package build, with some trickery.  See
> debian/locale-gen in the gcc-3.2 source package, for instance.

However generating *all* locales is going to be excessively painful
for slower architectures and it'd be nice if it wasn't done unless
absolutely necessary.

-- 
James

Re: libpng3 upgrade will remove kde development packages

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mer 23/04/2003 à 22:23, Josh Metzler a écrit :

> Shuttle:/home/josh# apt-get -s install libpng3
> Reading Package Lists... Done
> Building Dependency Tree... Done
> The following extra packages will be installed:
>   libpng12-0
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   kdelibs4-dev kdesdk kspy libarts1-dev libartsc0-dev libpng12-0-dev
>   libqt3-mt-dev
> The following held packages will be changed:
>   libpng12-0 libpng3

This should be fine if you tell apt-get to install libpng12-dev
explicitly.
BTW, shouldn't APT deal with this case (conflicts/replaces/provides)
automatically ?
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom


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Re: If Debian decides that the Gnu Free Doc License is not free then I will be honored to join Stallman and the FSF in the not free section of your distro

[Andrew Saunders]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:46:24 +0400
Hans Reiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> persons like me 
> are concerned that vendors will strip all information about who wrote 
> ReiserFS out except for copyright notices that none of their users
> will see, slap their brand identity onto it, and ship, depriving me of
> all credit for my work on their product. 

We seem to have slalomed across from talking about documentation to
about code, again. Ok.

Whilst I'm not personally advocating taking and re-branding code
(especially if its against upstream's wishes) the "ripping off" that you
speak so vehemently against isn't quite so bad as it may appear. In
fact, it can often be very advantageous to a project.

One could argue that if the "thief" had been unable to re-brand the
code, they never would have used it. If they had to have a prominent
notice advertising "We did not write this, Hans Reiser did" (only 24
times as long) every time their application started, they wouldn't touch
the code with a barge pole. Thus, the code is now in places where it
wouldn't have been before. This means greater penetration, albeit by the
back door.

"Depriving you of all credit" is an exaggeration. There's always going
to be some recognition gained. They cannot remove the copyright notice,
as you say. And again, since the code would not have been used at all if
large, blatant credits were a requirement, the alternative is zero
recognition because they would have done something else instead. They
might gain _more_ reputation from their immediate user-base than you,
but you still gain. And the more clueful hacker types will be the ones
who will read the copyright notices, anyway, and most probably come and
seek you out on their own.

Additionally, having taken the code and rebranded it, a prudent person
is highly unlikely to want to go to the trouble of maintaining the
codebase on their own. Even if they're being especially selfish and
don't want to contribute anything back, they'll definitely file bug
reports on any problems that they or their users find, because they'll
want them to be fixed. Again, net gain through increased testing.

Please note, I don't say that your view is invalid, merely that there is
an alternative view that seems to be quite widely spread. The above
involves sacrificing some very prominent visibility to the users of
those that do accept the more onerous licensing terms, in the hope of
garnering greater penetration, utilisation and development of the code
in the long term. 

> Look at how many companies ripped off squid.

And yet, to the best of my knowledge, Squid have not changed their
license to prevent this recurring in the future. I wonder why?

Re: If Debian decides that the Gnu Free Doc License is not free then I will be honored to join Stallman and the FSF in the not free section of your distro

[Hans Reiser]

Andrew Saunders wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:46:24 +0400
Hans Reiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 

One could argue that if the "thief" had been unable to re-brand the
code, they never would have used it. If they had to have a prominent
notice advertising "We did not write this, Hans Reiser did" (only 24
times as long) every time their application started, they wouldn't touch
the code with a barge pole. Thus, the code is now in places where it
wouldn't have been before. This means greater penetration, albeit by the
back door.
If they want to leave off the credits, they can pay me for the 
privilege, or live with only the credit they deserve for their work.  
People who can't live with my credits on work they sell to others should 
pay.

 

Look at how many companies ripped off squid.
   

And yet, to the best of my knowledge, Squid have not changed their
license to prevent this recurring in the future.
There is no need to change the license, the companies violated the GPL, 
they didn't just strip the credits.  The need is to enforce the license, 
and nobody is bothering.  UC Santa Cruz University lawyers are not very 
interested in earning their living.  I reported it to them some time 
ago



--
Hans

Re: Any active maintainers using mod_perl?

[Ivan Kohler]

I actively use and develop with mod_perl and would be happy to take the
packages over if you are no longer inclined.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
_ivan


On Mon, Apr 14, 2003 at 11:44:18PM -0400, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
> It's been a few years since I've actually run a web site which uses
> libapache-mod-perl or apache-perl.  If there's anyone more interested than I
> in maintaining these packages, I'd be glad to pass them on.
> 
> They're in pretty good shape; there's one mysterious apache-perl bug which
> shouldn't be too hard to track down, and a couple of bugs that want more
> automatic configuration when libapache-mod-perl is installed that I'm not
> sure I agree with.  Also one bug for uninstalling libapache-mod-perl, but
> I'll fix that tonight.
> 
> -- 
> Daniel Jacobowitz
> MontaVista Software Debian GNU/Linux Developer
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-- 
_ivan

Re: Autobuilder locale setup

[Roger Leigh]

James Troup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> "Adam Conrad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Autobuilders don't even have "locales" installed by default, as it's
> > non-essential, so you certainly can't count on any specific locales being
> > there, no.  You can, however, generate the locales that you need and make
> > them available to you during your package build, with some trickery.  See
> > debian/locale-gen in the gcc-3.2 source package, for instance.
> 
> However generating *all* locales is going to be excessively painful
> for slower architectures and it'd be nice if it wasn't done unless
> absolutely necessary.

That's fine--I can just generate those that I really need (~20).


Thanks,
Roger

-- 
Roger Leigh

Printing on GNU/Linux?  http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/
GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 available on public keyservers

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Matthew Palmer]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Andreas Barth wrote:

> Can't you understand that as an author you would like that messages
> like this are not removed without your consent? The internet
> robustness principle says: Be liberal in what you accept and
> conservative in what you send. Modifiying code is sending, and

Writing the code in the first place is also sending.  I'd say that, under
the circumstances for which reiserfsprogs is most likely to be used by a
person, a long credits speil at the end of execution isn't overly
conservative.  The principles apply to everyone.

> therefore the debian-maintainers should be conservative in making
> changes against the will of the upstream maintainers. (Formally

That I wholeheartedly agree with - hell, it should be put in the Developers
Reference in big pointy letters.

However, at the end of the day, maintainers have signed on to do the best
for our users, not upstream maintainers.  The question must be asked and
answered, how are users better served - by keeping a long credits message
and reiserfs, or switching to another journalling file system whose tools
don't have such unpleasantness.


-- 
---
#include 
Matthew Palmer, Geek In Residence
http://ieee.uow.edu.au/~mjp16

Re: Work-needing packages report for Apr 11, 2003

[Nathan Paul Simons]

(Sorry for taking so long to get back)

On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 19:18, Cameron Patrick wrote:
> Er, the SBLive and its Creative brethren do, don't they?  At least, I'm
> presuming that's what "sound fonts" are for.  Has it been removed in
> later versions of the card?

If it's there, I can't find it on my current one (which I bought about a
month ago).

Anyway, most[1] motherboards these days seem to come with an onboard
DSP, but no MIDI.  Most people don't bother to buy a "real" sound card
when they've already got one built in, as long as it works with Linux. 
Me, I bought my SBLive cause the one on my motherboard didn't want to
work with Linux.

[1] - Yes, I know I really should say "most x86 motherboards", but I
stopped to think, and most of the other architectures I've ever played
with (PowerPC, Alpha, Sparc) had built in sound too, and no MIDI . . . 

-- 
The more I use other operating systems, the more I like Debian GNU/Linux
http://www.debian.org  http://www.gnu.org  http://www.linux.org


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Re: Work-needing packages report for Apr 11, 2003

[Nathan Paul Simons]

(Sorry for taking so long to get back)

On Sat, 2003-04-12 at 08:28, Darren Salt wrote:
> Hmm. They're conffiles (not sure why, given that they're all binaries); have
> you tried 2.4 with the 2.3 drums files?

I believe I tried that, but I can't recall.  As it stands now, I just
keep the source to 2.3 around for safekeeping.

> I use it from time to time, and I think that it should be left in the archive
> until most people are using 2.6-series kernels (and, thus, ALSA).

Ah, I've been lax; I haven't even moved to ALSA yet.  Does it do good
MIDI?

> I have an SBLive; it has an on-board synth, which sounds almost as good as
> timidity (and has the advantage of using next to no CPU power).

Odd, my current SBLive (bought about a month ago) doesn't seem to have
on board synth.  Even so, if it only sounds "almost as good as"
timidity, that's pretty piss poor.

> OTOH, the only synth support for emu10k1 is in ALSA, although there's OSS
> support for the MIDI port on these cards (but I don't have anything to plug
> in there).

That would explain why I can't use synth on mine.

> Hmm... another reason to keep it, then.

Like I've said, I've got the source, I'm not too concerned, but I don't
have the time to maintain a package for it.

> A text editor :-)

Yeah, I like vim, but sometimes I just like to have a reassurance that I
haven't missed anything.

-- 
The more I use other operating systems, the more I like Debian GNU/Linux
http://www.debian.org  http://www.gnu.org  http://www.linux.org


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Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Joshua Kwan]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 07:27:05PM +0100, Matt Ryan wrote:
> I apologise for accusing Manoj of having a prune up his rear. It's clear to
> me now that this was a disservice to prunes and in fact it's a thesaurus
> thats lodged there and is giving him delusions of having a large vocabulary.

At this point in the thread I am asking myself if you are presently
trying to present a point. You seem to have left your ideas a few
branches back.

Regards,
Josh

-- 
New PGP public key: 0x27AFC3EE


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Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Martin Pool]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:10:45 -0500, Adam Heath wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Hans Reiser wrote:
>> Ed has graciously agreed to restore the credits, and I thank Debian for
>> its respect for the wishes of the original author in regards to
>> prominently crediting those who have contributed.

I'm glad to hear that.

> Again, what does Debian(as a community/organization) have to do with a
> maintainer fixing a minor bug?

Imagine you are the developer of some random piece of free software.  You
don't necessarily use Debian; you certainly don't understand all its
systems and protocols.

The conventional way to get in touch with the developers of a free
software project to raise an issue is to write to the -devel list.  It's
not surprising that this is what people do with debian.

By all means suggest they write to [EMAIL PROTECTED], but there's no need to
flame people for doing the normal and reasonable thing.

-- 
Martin

Re: irssi-text - Not quite a release-critical bug

[Colin Watson]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 09:35:13PM +0200, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote:
> Bug 183186 seems to be stopping irss-text 0.8.6 from entering Sarge, but
> IMHO the bug is not quite release critical.

#183186 is important, which hasn't been a release-critical severity for
several years now. It is not affecting irssi-text's promotion to
testing. irssi-text is in fact held up by the perl 5.8 transition.

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: libpng3 upgrade will remove kde development packages

[Chris Cheney]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 12:17:46AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le mer 23/04/2003 à 22:23, Josh Metzler a écrit :
> 
> > Shuttle:/home/josh# apt-get -s install libpng3
> > Reading Package Lists... Done
> > Building Dependency Tree... Done
> > The following extra packages will be installed:
> >   libpng12-0
> > The following packages will be REMOVED:
> >   kdelibs4-dev kdesdk kspy libarts1-dev libartsc0-dev libpng12-0-dev
> >   libqt3-mt-dev
> > The following held packages will be changed:
> >   libpng12-0 libpng3
> 
> This should be fine if you tell apt-get to install libpng12-dev
> explicitly.
> BTW, shouldn't APT deal with this case (conflicts/replaces/provides)
> automatically ?

It might have something to do with him having libpng12-0 libpng3 set to
hold? When I attempt to install kdelibs4-dev here it seems to work
correctly:

singularity:~# apt-get install kdelibs4-dev
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libart-2.0-dev libarts1 libarts1-dev libartsc0 libartsc0-dev libasound2-dev
  libaudio-dev libaudiofile-dev libcupsys2 libcupsys2-dev libfam-dev
  libfreetype6-dev libglib2.0-dev libjpeg62-dev liblcms1-dev libmad0-dev
  libmng-dev libogg-dev libpcre3-dev libpng12-dev libqt3-headers libqt3-mt-dev
  libvorbis-dev pkg-config qt3-dev-tools xlibmesa-gl-dev xlibmesa-glu-dev
  xlibs-dev zlib1g-dev
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  kdelibs4-dev libart-2.0-dev libarts1-dev libartsc0-dev libasound2-dev
  libaudio-dev libaudiofile-dev libcupsys2-dev libfam-dev libfreetype6-dev
  libglib2.0-dev libjpeg62-dev liblcms1-dev libmad0-dev libmng-dev libogg-dev
  libpcre3-dev libpng12-dev libqt3-headers libqt3-mt-dev libvorbis-dev
  pkg-config qt3-dev-tools xlibmesa-gl-dev xlibmesa-glu-dev xlibs-dev
  zlib1g-dev
The following held packages will be changed:
  libarts1 libartsc0
3 packages upgraded, 27 newly installed, 0 to remove and 7  not upgraded.
Need to get 11.7MB of archives. After unpacking 42.8MB will be used.

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Martin Pool]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:53:14 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:59:59 +1000, Martin Pool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
> 
>> For example, at least two people called Hans a troll.  An upstream
>> author expressing concern about the way their code is packaged is
>> not trolling (i.e. making random arguments just to provoke flames.)
> 
>   I find it interesting that you consider a public accusation of
>  plagiarism to be merely "expressing concern". 

I was intentionally using moderate language because (a) I don't
believe it is strictly plagiarism (as you say), and (b) because I
don't think inflaming the debate by tossing around words like
"plagiarism" (or "troll", "slander", etc) is very helpful.  (Had I
thought about it more, I would have realized the second one goes
completely against the behaviour expected on -devel, which is
apparently to be as personal and negative as possible.)

>  However, I also find your judgment in this horribly tainted, which
>  leads me to place less credence in the rest of your argument,
>  sorry.

Well, Hans and Ed seem to have arrived at exactly the outcome I was
arguing for, so I suppose I can't have been completely wrong: despite
that Debian has the legal right to change the code, it should seek
compromise between the author and the distribution's goals.

You need to get past the emotional upset you felt (understandably) at
Debian being accused of plagiarism.  (Well, it seems to have been
resolved without your help, so I suppose you can stay upset if you
prefer.)

> Or the blindingly obvious choice: Your blatant spin displays a bias
> so huge that your arguments are no longer credible?

It's a sorry day when wanting Debian to give some consideration to the
opinions of original authors is "huge bias".

-- 
Martin

Bug#190422: ITP: dumb -- the dynamic universal music bibliotheque

[Sam Hocevar]

Package: wnpp
Version: unavailable; reported 2003-04-24
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: dumb
  Version : 0.9.2
  Upstream Author : Ben Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://dumb.sourceforge.net/
* License : BSD-like
  Description : the dynamic universal music bibliotheque

 DUMB is a tracker library with support for IT, XM, S3M and MOD files. It
 targets maximum accuracy to the original formats, with low-pass resonant
 filters for the IT files, accurate timing and pitching, and three resampling
 quality settings (aliasing, linear interpolation and cubic interpolation).

 [note about the license: section 4 was merely a joke, but was making the
  license GPL-incompatible, and probably non-DFSG-free. The author kindly
  agreed to renounce it.]

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux c18 2.5.53 #2 Thu Apr 24 01:24:46 CEST 2003 i686
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=fr_FR

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Matthew Palmer]

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Martin Pool wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:10:45 -0500, Adam Heath wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Hans Reiser wrote:
> >> Ed has graciously agreed to restore the credits, and I thank Debian for
> >> its respect for the wishes of the original author in regards to
> >> prominently crediting those who have contributed.
> >
> > Again, what does Debian(as a community/organization) have to do with a
> > maintainer fixing a minor bug?
> 
> Imagine you are the developer of some random piece of free software.  You
> don't necessarily use Debian; you certainly don't understand all its
> systems and protocols.
> 
> The conventional way to get in touch with the developers of a free
> software project to raise an issue is to write to the -devel list.  It's
> not surprising that this is what people do with debian.

I think you missed the thrust of Adam's comment (and previous missives on
the same topic).  Hans is thanking "Debian" for an action, when the project
as a whole (the entity typically referred to by the name "Debian") has taken
no such action.

This flamewar might be a good reminder to everyone why it's a useful idea to
keep in good contact with your upstreams - that way, they can come and
pester you with problems instead of setting the whole project off into a
paroxym of "heated" messages (to say the least).


-- 
---
#include 
Matthew Palmer, Geek In Residence
http://ieee.uow.edu.au/~mjp16

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:17, Martin Pool wrote:
> The conventional way to get in touch with the developers of a free
> software project to raise an issue is to write to the -devel list.  It's
> not surprising that this is what people do with debian.

The conventional way to approach a large group of people if you want a 
positive response is to not start making accusations in your first message.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[mbp]

On 24 Apr 2003, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:17, Martin Pool wrote:
> > The conventional way to get in touch with the developers of a free
> > software project to raise an issue is to write to the -devel list.  It's
> > not surprising that this is what people do with debian.
> 
> The conventional way to approach a large group of people if you want a 
> positive response is to not start making accusations in your first
> message.

I agree.  I am not trying to defend Hans's diplomatic skills.

-- 
Martin 

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:41:58 +0200, Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> * Steve Langasek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030422 08:35]:
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 02:53:38PM +1000, Martin Pool wrote:
>> > Authors have a moral right (and a legal one in some places) not
>> > to have their work mutilated.

>> You can assert a moral right to control how your work is used, or
>> you can write Free Software.  You don't get to do both at once.

> You can. The _moral_ right is compatible with free software, the
> _formal_ right not. (And in some, rare cases the moral right is
> ignored. mkreiserfs could be a place like that. But that doesn't
> stop the moral right in general.)

You seem to be impying that all forks of free software are immoral.

manoj

ps. Someone ought let the XEmacs folks into this

-- 
An American's a person who isn't afraid to criticize the president but
is always polite to traffic cops.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:46:32 +1000, Martin Pool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:53:14 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:59:59 +1000, Martin Pool
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>>
>>> For example, at least two people called Hans a troll.  An upstream
>>> author expressing concern about the way their code is packaged is
>>> not trolling (i.e. making random arguments just to provoke
>>> flames.)
>>
>> I find it interesting that you consider a public accusation of
>> plagiarism to be merely "expressing concern".

> I was intentionally using moderate language because (a) I don't
> believe it is strictly plagiarism (as you say),

You need a modifier strictly there? You think it was loosely
 plagiarism? 

> and (b) because I don't think inflaming the debate by tossing around
> words like "plagiarism" (or "troll", "slander", etc) is very
> helpful.

I think anyone throwing out unsubstantiatged accusation of
 plagiarism is indeed a troll; and never intended to jave a rational
 conversation. If you start out by being rude, what ought you to
 expect? 

> (Had I thought about it more, I would have realized the second one
> goes completely against the behaviour expected on -devel, which is
> apparently to be as personal and negative as possible.)

Quite so. Now you know.

>> However, I also find your judgment in this horribly tainted, which
>> leads me to place less credence in the rest of your argument,
>> sorry.

> Well, Hans and Ed seem to have arrived at exactly the outcome I was
> arguing for, so I suppose I can't have been completely wrong:
> despite that Debian has the legal right to change the code, it
> should seek compromise between the author and the distribution's
> goals.

The fact that the outcome reached meets your desires in no way
 mitigates the bias you were displaying.

> You need to get past the emotional upset you felt (understandably)
> at Debian being accused of plagiarism.  (Well, it seems to have been
> resolved without your help, so I suppose you can stay upset if you
> prefer.)

Ah. Turn the other cheek, ad infinitum. Not quite my
 style. I am to take it that 

>> Or the blindingly obvious choice: Your blatant spin displays a bias
>> so huge that your arguments are no longer credible?

> It's a sorry day when wanting Debian to give some consideration to
> the opinions of original authors is "huge bias".


I see. Wanting Debian to fawn over authors (as if we are a
 body totally devoid of authors of free software) even when the
 aforementioned authors insult us and tar our reputation is merely
 "some consideration".


If you do not think your view point is biased, then I am sorry
 to say I am not wearing those blinkers.

manoj
-- 
It's always darkest just before the lights go out.  -- Alex Clark
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Atsuhito Kohda]

Now my understanding is;

the new mechanism might be okay if it first checks whether 
texmf.cnf is an admin's file or a file generated by 
update-texmf before generating texmf.cnf and overwrites it 
only in the case it was a file generated by the script
(for example, with the way of update-modules).

Is this right?

Well, I had an impression from the prases like;

From: Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:21:17 -0500

>   I am sorry, I do think that not preserving user changes is not
>  an advancement.

or

From: Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:52:43 -0500

>   Excellent? Dumping user changes is excellent? I think I would
>  prefer a less gee-which flashy scheme that actually followed polciy.

that you denied the new mechanism in the whole so I tried
to explain why it was necessary for entire TeX system.

If you said something like;

   it might be okay ONLY IF it checks first if texmf.cnf was
   generated one or not before overwriting it,
   (I'm not completely sure that this is really your intention, 
   though)

then I could get your point soon...

# Communication with English is indeed difficult for me.
# I hope my understanding is correct now.

Thanks,2003-4-24(Thu)

-- 
 Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian
 Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Department of Math., Tokushima Univ.

Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:25:53 +1000, mbp  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On 24 Apr 2003, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:17, Martin Pool wrote:
>> > The conventional way to get in touch with the developers of a
>> > free software project to raise an issue is to write to the -devel
>> > list.  It's not surprising that this is what people do with
>> > debian.
>>
>> The conventional way to approach a large group of people if you
>> want a positive response is to not start making accusations in your
>> first message.

> I agree.  I am not trying to defend Hans's diplomatic skills.

Diplomatic skill? It is not a feat of extraordinary diplomacy
 not to accuse your correspondent of various acts theft and piracy
 while initiating a dialogue. Has common courtesy been relegated to
 the realm of diplomats?

manoj
-- 
"And it's so portable --- at least, it worked on every VAX that I
tried it on." Tim McDaniel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 6 Sep 90,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: Bug#189370: acknowledged by developer (irrelevant)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:52:33 +0900 (JST), Atsuhito Kohda
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> Now my understanding is;
> the new mechanism might be okay if it first checks whether
> texmf.cnf is an admin's file or a file generated by update-texmf
> before generating texmf.cnf and overwrites it only in the case
> it was a file generated by the script (for example, with the way
> of update-modules).

> Is this right?

Not quite. a) even if the file was generated by update-texmf,
 and the user modified it later, the user changes *must* be
 preserved. Secondly, You are missing the fact that you ought to ask
 if the user wants your new file or not. We can't just leave the user
 out in the cold if they have local modifications to the file.

dpkg sets the gold standard for both allowing the user a
 chance to examine the changes, and have a choice about whether or not
 they wish to accept the changes. And not just once, but every time
 the maintainer script changes -- because this particular time the
 change may be just enough to make me change my mind, one way or the
 other.

So no, I don't think the behaviour described above is
 optimal. 

manoj
-- 
Wharbat darbid yarbou sarbay?
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: plagiarism of reiserfs by Debian

[Martin Pool]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:43:24 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:46:32 +1000, Martin Pool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
>> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:53:14 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> I was intentionally using moderate language because (a) I don't
>> believe it is strictly plagiarism (as you say),
> 
>   You need a modifier strictly there? You think it was loosely
>  plagiarism? 

We are going over old ground here: Various organizations contributed
to development of reiserfsprogs.  They were credited in the upstream
source, but acknowledgment of their contribution was completely
removed from one version of the Debian package.  Failing to give
credit where it is due is not a million miles away from plagiarism.

> If you start out by being rude, what ought you to expect?

I am not in the business of defending Hans's negotiating technique.

> The fact that the outcome reached meets your desires in no way
> mitigates the bias you were displaying.

Can you be more specific about what bias I am supposed to have?

> Wanting Debian to fawn over authors...

You are simply exaggerating, and it's a bit silly.

> If you do not think your view point is biased, then I am sorry to
> say I am not wearing those blinkers.

You're sorry because you wish you were wearing blinkers?

-- 
Martin