Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Colin Walters]

[ Could you please not CC me? ]

On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 22:05, John Goerzen wrote:

> Are you comparing released version to released version?  (Debian stable to
> NetBSD -STABLE?)  If so, I stand corrected.

Yes.  

> In any case, we surely have come a long way.

Definitely!

Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Colin Walters]

On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 22:36, Chris Lawrence wrote:

> The module should be:
> /usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/gtk-2.0/bonobo/activationmodule.so
> 
> It seems to be in the python2.2-gnome2 package, at least on my system.

Hm, I seem to be suffering from the breakage in #169035.

> Maybe, although GNOME System Tools is perl-based, so I'm not entirely
> sure it's a good idea from a dependency standpoint.

True enough.  I just wonder if there's a way you could somehow reuse
some of the nice work they've done, like the root password prompt.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Tollef Fog Heen]

* "Joel Baker" 

| > (I can think of one trivial example--devfs makes it really easy to tell
| > which disks are available to the partitioning program. Can you describe
| > a simple method to do that, which is guaranteed to work on any kernel?
| > Likewise, can you describe a kernel-independent way of parsing the pci
| > device table and loading relevant drivers?)
| 
| To run with your example... I could care less how it's done on a Linux
| kernel, if the API says "Calling this routine will return a list of device
| names which can be safely handed to the partitioning subsystem". Maybe
| that's devfs on Linux, a Perl script on NetBSD, and green cheese on some
| other system. *As long as the API does not assume anything about the system
| underneath*, it *becomes* the 'simple system to do that on any kernel'.
| That's all I'm asking for - careful API design, that tries very hard to
| *not* make any assumptions about such things, and breaks things down far
| enough that one can safely encapsulate OS-specific ways of doing it such
| that they can be replaced.

Yes, that's a goal, eventually.  We are not there yet.  First, get
things working, then make then work and look nice.  Trying to do two
things at a time will make you fumble and not do any of them well.

| On the other hand, if it *is* supposed to support non-Linux ports, all I'm
| asking for is that people try to be mindful of such assumptions and keep
| them hidden as implementation details, rather than core assumptions.

The core assumption in d-i is debconf and some implementation of
dpkg.  Apart from that it is all modules which can be switched at
will.  Yes, there are linuxisms and i386isms in the code.  Yes, they
will be fixed.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Michael Bramer]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 05:54:21PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:21:28AM +0100, Michael Bramer wrote:
> >   You can download translated template files from
> >   http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/template_unstable/$PACKAGE (like
> >   http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/template_unstable/base-config/templates-de
> >   for German)
> 
> Is it your intention for these translations to only be made available on
> the ddtp website, instead of being submitted directly to maintainers as
> bug reports?

I can do this.

But IMHO the best should be, if some dh_-script download the last
translations from some web site. comments about this?

I write some scripts to make links in the PTS to the ddtp now.

Gruss
Grisu
-- 
Michael Bramer  -  a Debian Linux Developer  http://www.debsupport.de
PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Linux Sysadmin   -- Use Debian Linux
>| X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I)
Wie sollst Du auch verstehen können?  -- Stefan Scholl in dasr


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Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Michael Bramer]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 01:41:34AM +0100, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 05:54:21PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > >   We've started the translation of debconf templates some weeks ago.
> > >   See http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/gnuplot/ddts-stat.png 
> 
> It seems that you don't use po-debconf: isn't it?
> AFAIK we all should switch to po-debconf for a better translation system.

The ddtp will produce also po-debconf files in future. I must only write
some scripts for it...

> > Is it your intention for these translations to only be made available on
> > the ddtp website, instead of being submitted directly to maintainers as
> > bug reports?
> 
> I would like to recive the translation as bugs, so i hope you'll set it up in
> this way sooner or later.

some other with this opinion?

Gruss
Grisu
-- 
Michael Bramer  -  a Debian Linux Developer  http://www.debsupport.de
PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Linux Sysadmin   -- Use Debian Linux
>| X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I)
Wie sollst Du auch verstehen können?  -- Stefan Scholl in dasr


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Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Michael Bramer wrote:

>   We've started the translation of debconf templates some weeks ago.
>   See http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/gnuplot/ddts-stat.png
Great.

>   If you are a package maintainer, you can obtain a package-related
>   file from
>   http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/maintainer/$PACKAGE with more
>   information.
What about generating a bug report against the package.  I would love
an information via e-mail about translations because I would definitely
forget to check this page before uploading a new package version.

Kind regards

Andreas.

Re: PostgreSQL 7.3 about to be released

[Stephen Birch]

Sorry - I guess this is probably a newbie question.

This posting says the new PostgreSQL pre-release was uploaded to 
"experimental". Is that the same as uploading to "unstable" or is there 
another area beyond stable, testing, and unstable?

Steve


On Tuesday 26 November 2002 10:21 pm, Oliver Elphick wrote:
> PostgreSQL 7.3 is expected to be released tomorrow, and Debian packages
> for unstable will follow shortly after.
>
> I uploaded 7.3rc2-1 to experimental today; these packages can also be
> found at people.debian.org/~elphick/postgresql.  I also uploaded
> pgaccess, which is newly separated into its own source package
>
> If anyone has tried these packages and has any comments, please let me
> know very soon.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Joel Baker]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 07:05:31AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> * "Joel Baker" 
> 
> | > (I can think of one trivial example--devfs makes it really easy to tell
> | > which disks are available to the partitioning program. Can you describe
> | > a simple method to do that, which is guaranteed to work on any kernel?
> | > Likewise, can you describe a kernel-independent way of parsing the pci
> | > device table and loading relevant drivers?)
> | 
> | To run with your example... I could care less how it's done on a Linux
> | kernel, if the API says "Calling this routine will return a list of device
> | names which can be safely handed to the partitioning subsystem". Maybe
> | that's devfs on Linux, a Perl script on NetBSD, and green cheese on some
> | other system. *As long as the API does not assume anything about the system
> | underneath*, it *becomes* the 'simple system to do that on any kernel'.
> | That's all I'm asking for - careful API design, that tries very hard to
> | *not* make any assumptions about such things, and breaks things down far
> | enough that one can safely encapsulate OS-specific ways of doing it such
> | that they can be replaced.
> 
> Yes, that's a goal, eventually.  We are not there yet.  First, get
> things working, then make then work and look nice.  Trying to do two
> things at a time will make you fumble and not do any of them well.

I might argue, in the case of APIs, that it is more a case of "If you don't
have time to do it right, how will you ever have time to do it over" - it
becomes *very* hard to un-entrench bad API choices, a lot of the time.

> | On the other hand, if it *is* supposed to support non-Linux ports, all I'm
> | asking for is that people try to be mindful of such assumptions and keep
> | them hidden as implementation details, rather than core assumptions.
> 
> The core assumption in d-i is debconf and some implementation of
> dpkg.  Apart from that it is all modules which can be switched at
> will.  Yes, there are linuxisms and i386isms in the code.  Yes, they
> will be fixed.

However, in contrast to the above, it sounds like you have things split out
enough that hopefully it won't come back to bite anyone later, too hard.
Specific bits of code are far easier to fix than flawed design.

I will grant that my perspective may be skewed; I typically do what
programming work I do under folks who prefer lightweight processes (XP and
things not quite so lightweight, but close), and for whom not having a
clear API means you don't write code - because you have no idea what the
code should be doing.
-- 
***
Joel Baker   System Administrator - lightbearer.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://users.lightbearer.com/lucifer/


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Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Michael Bramer wrote:

> But IMHO the best should be, if some dh_-script download the last
> translations from some web site. comments about this?
Not bad.  But I often build packages while beeing off-line ...

(Sorry for my previous mail. I should check debian-devel before
replying to mails at debian-announce...)

Kind regards

   Andreas.

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Michael Bramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002-11-27 00:21]:
>   We've started the translation of debconf templates some weeks ago.

 Good to see that those are coordinated now, too.

>   If you are a package maintainer, you can obtain a package-related
>   file from
>   http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/maintainer/$PACKAGE with more
>   information. 

 It would be nice if it can be sorted by $MAINTAINER, too.  I dislike
the idea to have to look for every single package instead of having a
pool for all of my packages.

 Have fun,
Alfie
-- 
   char *strstr(const char *haystack, const char *needle);
  -- STRSTR(3)  Linux Programmer's Manual


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Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Andreas Tille]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote:

> Are there plans to create a debian-desktop list? This group sure does
> have a lot of traffic, and as an official subproject, they should have
> their own list.
I guess the Debian-Desktop people asked for those list.

Moreover a mailing list for Debian Internal Projects in common was
requested to discuss topics which are common to all these projects.
I'm soory for bluring debian-devel with this stuff but we got no
approval for this list because there was no obviouse need.  :-((

Kind regards

 Andreas.

Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Chris Lawrence]

On Nov 27, Colin Walters wrote:
> > Maybe, although GNOME System Tools is perl-based, so I'm not entirely
> > sure it's a good idea from a dependency standpoint.
> 
> True enough.  I just wonder if there's a way you could somehow reuse
> some of the nice work they've done, like the root password prompt.

Yes, some sort of "su to root" prompt is probably a good idea; dunno
if I can reuse the existing code or what.  If not, something similar
probably won't be hard to whip together (although I guess we probably
have half a dozen "graphical su"s in Debian already).

FWIW, the GNOME System Tools root prompts don't seem to work for me...

Probably the best approach would be to use something like gksu in the
menu entry; why reinvent the wheel?


Chris
-- 
Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/

Computer Systems Manager, Physics and Astronomy, Univ. of Mississippi
125B Lewis Hall - 662-915-5765

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Anthony Towns]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 01:00:19AM -0700, Joel Baker wrote:
> I might argue, in the case of APIs, that it is more a case of "If you don't
> have time to do it right, how will you ever have time to do it over" - it
> becomes *very* hard to un-entrench bad API choices, a lot of the time.

You might argue, yes. You could, alternatively, stop talking about it,
and provide Tollef with patches instead.

So far, the question isn't whether there'll be time to do it right now
or to redesign it later, the question's whether it'll be possible to do
it at all.

> However, in contrast to the above, it sounds like you have things split out
> enough that hopefully it won't come back to bite anyone later, too hard.

If you're going to debate with the d-i project lead, at least have the
courtesy to check out the sources from CVS and try some installs and so
forth first so you have _some_ clue what you're talking about, rather
than trying to reduce everything to abstracts and platonic ideals.

Cheers,
a "there are more things in debian-boot CVS, Horatio..." j

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 ``If you don't do it now, you'll be one year older when you do.''


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Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 09:05:25PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> Just waiting for Debian/VAX... ahem...

I have a couple of 100+ MHz machines available for autobuilding when
ready.. A 4000/600 and a 4000/700 from memory.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 01:58:25PM -0800, Jon Kent wrote:
> 
> --- Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > No, it doesn't.  It shows that the most frequently
> > viewed distribution pages
> > on distrowatch.com are:
> 
> I did say they were not great figures, just
> interesting, but I expect this sort of comment from
> you.

What, you don't like accurate figures?

It makes sense that Gentoo gets more web hits than us. They are new and
fashionable, while we are old but dependable. Of course this has no
connection to what people are actually running on their machines though.


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Pick a name, any name...

[Roland Mas]

  Hi all,

  As some of you probably know, some people are in the process of
installing a Sourceforge site on a Debian machine.  It will consist of
a slightly patched version of the 2.6 branch of the Debian package
"sourceforge", with a few scripts to help integration with existing
infrastructure (existing accounts and groups should be preserved, for
instance).

  The code is almost ready, the server itself should be OK soon (if
not already), and Wichert and I even managed to find a time where both
of us can be on the same IRC network at the same time.

  Now for the *real* important debate: how to call it?

Current candidates include:

- Loana: Stays in the line of the female names for Debian software,
  but it reminds French people of a very archetypic blonde in a French
  TV show of the like of Big Brother.  It's a bit controversial on
  #Debian-devel-fr.

- Actarus: Actarus is the pilot of Goldorak/Grendizer/what's it called
  in your language.  No particular reason except that it was a very
  famous cartoon here in France some ten-fifteen years ago.  Alcor is
  another name in that series.

- Alioth: This one I really like.  It's the capital system of the
  Alliance of Independent Systems in the Elite/Frontier/First
  Encounters video games.  I initially thought about Achenar or
  Vequess, but they were not particularly adequate (they're
  respectively the capital system and the slave pit of the evil
  Empire).

- Another idea I had was something along the lines of Debsmith or
  Iansmith, to keep both the idea of Debian and the idea of the forge.
  Unfortunately, plenty of people are called that way.  Any idea to
  improve that line is welcome.  Maybe just smith.debian.org would be
  enough (and I'll bet we can find a music composer named Smith if we
  look hard enough).

- Various other ideas: ker (means "house" in Breton), gargamel (the
  sorcerer in the forest in the Smurfs comics), canard (Guillaume
  Morin really wants his nickname to be in that list, someone please
  kick him in the nuts or roast him -- means "duck" in French).

- Your idea here.

  Now is the time to debate and argue.  There's no guarantee we'll
pick what the crowd wants, but good names will be considered :-)

Roland.
-- 
Roland Mas

A lesson for you all: never fall in love during a total eclipse.
  -- Senex, in A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Jérôme Marant]

Roland Mas wrote:
 Hi all,
 

Hello,
 As some of you probably know, some people are in the process of
installing a Sourceforge site on a Debian machine.  It will consist of
a slightly patched version of the 2.6 branch of the Debian package
"sourceforge", with a few scripts to help integration with existing
infrastructure (existing accounts and groups should be preserved, for
instance).
 

Good to hear.
 The code is almost ready, the server itself should be OK soon (if
not already), and Wichert and I even managed to find a time where both
of us can be on the same IRC network at the same time.
 Now for the *real* important debate: how to call it?
Current candidates include:
 

...
- Your idea here.
 

Can't we keep Quantz as such name?
Cheers,

Re: orbit/evolution/linux2.5 bug #168188

[Francesco Paolo Lovergine]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 07:29:36PM -0500, Stephen Gran wrote:
> > 
> > Jeff
> When I do this sort of thing on my local mirror, I usually pretend it's
> an NMU - so your package would be 0.5.17-4.1 or something.  This
> prevents apt from preferring the Debian distributed pakage over yours.
> Either that or you can use pinning to give your local repository a
> higher preference.
> 

Better something like 0.5.17-4my1
This prevents problems with other official NMUs and updates.

-- 
Francesco P. Lovergine

Re: Multiple conflicts between firewall configuring packages (policy change? mass bug filing?)

[Jamie Wilkinson]

This one time, at band camp, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote:
>He can either:
>1.- get the rules of the latest firewall script that runs from init (if it
>flushes the previous rules)
>2.- get a mixed setup of rules.
>
>¿Shouldn't there be a way for these firewalls to cooperate so as to not
>get users into trouble?

I don't want to conflict with any other package if it's not necessary.
filtergen's init script is turned off by default, for this reason, and is
trivially enabled.

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://people.debian.org/~jaq

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Arjen Wiersma]

Roland,

Roland> - Your idea here.

What about 'meiinoar' which means 'together' in frisian (a language, some argue 
a dialect ;), in the Netherlands)...

Regards,

Arjen

Re: PostgreSQL 7.3 about to be released

[Ola Lundqvist]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:15:10AM +, Stephen Birch wrote:
> Sorry - I guess this is probably a newbie question.
> 
> This posting says the new PostgreSQL pre-release was uploaded to 
> "experimental". Is that the same as uploading to "unstable" or is there 
> another area beyond stable, testing, and unstable?

There is one other area, yes.

Regards,

// Ola

> Steve
> 
> 
> On Tuesday 26 November 2002 10:21 pm, Oliver Elphick wrote:
> > PostgreSQL 7.3 is expected to be released tomorrow, and Debian packages
> > for unstable will follow shortly after.
> >
> > I uploaded 7.3rc2-1 to experimental today; these packages can also be
> > found at people.debian.org/~elphick/postgresql.  I also uploaded
> > pgaccess, which is newly separated into its own source package
> >
> > If anyone has tried these packages and has any comments, please let me
> > know very soon.
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-- 
 - Ola Lundqvist ---
/  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Annebergsslingan 37  \
|  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 654 65 KARLSTAD  |
|  +46 (0)54-10 14 30  +46 (0)70-332 1551   |
|  http://www.opal.dhs.org UIN/icq: 4912500 |
\  gpg/f.p.: 7090 A92B 18FE 7994 0C36  4FE4 18A1 B1CF 0FE5 3DD9 /
 ---

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Glenn McGrath]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:58 +0100
Roland Mas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> - Your idea here.
> 

Trinity, re the Matrix



Glenn

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Francesco Paolo Lovergine]

I like maintaining the idea of forge, so my proposal is VULCAN
(from Roman mithology).
He was the God of volcanic fire and of metal work. He was
the son of Hera (and maybe Zeus).(Some say that Hera gave
birth to Hephaestus alone because she was angry with Zeus,
because Athena was born out of Zeus' head) without the
participation of Hera. Vulcan (Hephaestos), the celestial
artist, The olympians considered almost everything to be made of
natural materials or metal. He made a golden breastplate to Heracles,
Achilles' new armour, Agamemnon's Scepter. The brazen-footed bulls,
which puffed fire from their mouths. Oenopion's underground
house, the Necklace of Harmonia, and the list goes on.


-- 
Francesco P. Lovergine

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:03:58AM +0100, Roland Mas wrote:
> Current candidates include:
> - Actarus: Actarus is the pilot of Goldorak/Grendizer/what's it called
>   in your language.  No particular reason except that it was a very
>   famous cartoon here in France some ten-fifteen years ago.  Alcor is
>   another name in that series.

I like either Actarus or Alcor :)

> - Your idea here.

Or the simpliest forge.debian.org, or smithers.debian.org which also recall
the Simpson character and his role of secretary (after all it should be the
secretary for our projects).

ciao,
-- 
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis  | Elegant or ugly code as well
aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][-A-Za-z]*[iy]'?s$   | as fine or rude sentences have
Infinite loop: see `Loop, infinite'.| something in common: they
Loop, infinite: see `Infinite loop'.| don't depend on the language.

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Emile van Bergen]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:03:58AM +0100, Roland Mas wrote:

>   Hi all,
> 
>   As some of you probably know, some people are in the process of
> installing a Sourceforge site on a Debian machine.  It will consist of
> a slightly patched version of the 2.6 branch of the Debian package
> "sourceforge", with a few scripts to help integration with existing
> infrastructure (existing accounts and groups should be preserved, for
> instance).
> 
>   The code is almost ready, the server itself should be OK soon (if
> not already), and Wichert and I even managed to find a time where both
> of us can be on the same IRC network at the same time.
> 
>   Now for the *real* important debate: how to call it?

What about Avalon? Both a composer (well, hmm) and the place where
Excalibur was forged.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies / Emile van Bergen   |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153|   http://www.e-advies.info


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Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Roberto Suarez Soto]

On Nov/27, Emile van Bergen wrote:

> What about Avalon? Both a composer (well, hmm) and the place where
> Excalibur was forged.

Being about forging, "Orodruin" comes also to mind ;-)

-- 
Roberto Suarez Soto Alfa21 Outsourcing
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.alfa21.com

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Emile van Bergen]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:55:56AM +0100, Roberto Suarez Soto wrote:

> On Nov/27, Emile van Bergen wrote:
> 
> > What about Avalon? Both a composer (well, hmm) and the place where
> > Excalibur was forged.
> 
>   Being about forging, "Orodruin" comes also to mind ;-)

Yes, although there's already an orodruin.sourceforge.net and Mount Doom
is not altogether a nice place ;-))

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies / Emile van Bergen   |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153|   http://www.e-advies.info


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Re: DAM approval wait time?

[Andrew Lau]

On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 08:01:26AM -0800, Jim Lynch wrote:
> But what are you actually going to -do-? If I recall correctly,
> you've said on IRC that you aren't or don't want to be a coder
> (correct me if I'm wrong), and a previous attempt on your part to
> become a developer left NM with the question of what you intended to
> do crossed with what you had the skills to do. Perusing your entry
> in NM, you have passed the skills test. Congrats. But my question
> still stands...

> On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:08:29 +1000 Andrew Lau
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Dear Jim,
A bit hypocritical of you pointing out that I was
participating in my own thread late. I have to ask, are you pursuing
some kind of vendetta against me? I can't explain why else you are
digging everything you know about me and using whatever I may have
said on #debian years ago against me. What you know of me from the
days when I was still in high school may not still correctly apply to
me today. Are you expecting me to prove myself to you in some way?
Please look at my entry on QA:
. Also note that
my filmgimp packages  have also been
uploaded and are now awaiting processing by ftpmaster. I can, have,
and will continue packaging software that I find useful for Debian
GNU/Linux and carry out any responsibilities expected from any Debian
developer even though I am not officially recognised as one yet.

Yours sincerely,
Andrew "Netsnipe" Lau

-- 
---
* Andrew "Netsnipe" LauComputer Science & Student Representaive, UNSW *
*   # apt-get into it Debian GNU/Linux Package Maintainer *
**
* GnuPG 1024D/2E8B68BD 0B77 73D0 4F3B F286 63F1  9F4A 9B24 C07D 2E8B 68BD *
---


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Re: Pick a name, any name...

[H. S. Teoh]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:03:58AM +0100, Roland Mas wrote:
[snip]
> - Another idea I had was something along the lines of Debsmith or
>   Iansmith, to keep both the idea of Debian and the idea of the forge.
>   Unfortunately, plenty of people are called that way.  Any idea to
>   improve that line is welcome.  Maybe just smith.debian.org would be
>   enough (and I'll bet we can find a music composer named Smith if we
>   look hard enough).

Speaking of composers... how about Sibelius? Finnish composer, in honor of
Linus. :-) Or Debussy, if you're going for French names.


T

-- 
Caffeine underflow. Brain dumped.

Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:21:47 -0600, Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
escreveu:

> Yes, some sort of "su to root" prompt is probably a good idea; dunno
> if I can reuse the existing code or what.  If not, something similar
> probably won't be hard to whip together (although I guess we probably
> have half a dozen "graphical su"s in Debian already).
> 
> FWIW, the GNOME System Tools root prompts don't seem to work for me...
> 
> Probably the best approach would be to use something like gksu in the
> menu entry; why reinvent the wheel?

It would be good if we had a standard way of doing that... I talked to
walters about this some weeks ago, and he suggested it would be a good
thing to merge xsu, gnome-sudo and gksu (maybe others?).

I'm willing to work towards this, and I think it would be good to
create some policy for that, probably modify the su-to-root script
to use a "graphical su" alternative if $DISPLAY is set... 

It would even be good to have a capplet (and the equivalento on kcontrol)
with options like:

Which way to become root?:  
(*) Giving the root password (su)
( ) Using powers given by the admin (sudo)

What application will ask for the password?

(*) gnome-su (say this is the result of gnome-sudo + gksu + xsu)
( ) kdesu
( ) terminal with su
( ) custom

Command: (in case custom is selected)

The options should be changed in case the first question is changed,
of course.

[]s!

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha 
Debian:   *  
Dúvidas sobre o Debian? Visite o Rau-Tu: http://rautu.cipsga.org.br

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Colin Watson]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 07:07:45AM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:03:58AM +0100, Roland Mas wrote:
> > - Another idea I had was something along the lines of Debsmith or
> >   Iansmith, to keep both the idea of Debian and the idea of the forge.
> >   Unfortunately, plenty of people are called that way.  Any idea to
> >   improve that line is welcome.  Maybe just smith.debian.org would be
> >   enough (and I'll bet we can find a music composer named Smith if we
> >   look hard enough).
> 
> Speaking of composers... how about Sibelius? Finnish composer, in honor of
> Linus. :-) Or Debussy, if you're going for French names.

We've got a debussy; it's an arm machine.

Maybe Grieg? Forge => dwarf => Hall of the Mountain King.

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Tollef Fog Heen]

* "Joel Baker" 

| I might argue, in the case of APIs, that it is more a case of "If you don't
| have time to do it right, how will you ever have time to do it over" - it
| becomes *very* hard to un-entrench bad API choices, a lot of the time.

people seem to have the misconception that d-i is one big block of
code with common APIs inside.  It is not.  It is a bunch of loosely
coupled modules with little common API or code (except for debconf
interaction, that is).  (Not necessarily pointing at you here.)

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:01:13AM +0100, Michael Bramer wrote:
> > 
> > I would like to recive the translation as bugs, so i hope you'll set it up 
> > in
> > this way sooner or later.
> 
> some other with this opinion?
> 
I believe most Debian Developers share this opinion. The BTS is
the place to keep track of package issues, I, personally, don't like to go
to other places (or don't have time to investigate them) to include
patches/bug fixes (excluding upstream of course). 

Regards

Javi


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Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Tollef Fog Heen]

* Michael Bramer 

| The ddtp will produce also po-debconf files in future. I must only write
| some scripts for it...

Would you please also nice your scripts on gluck?  They are eating
loads and loads of CPU time.  Also rewriting them to keep state would
be a good thing.  (Or running them on your own box and uploading the
results to gluck.)

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Simon Richter]

Javier/Michael,

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 02:04:28PM +0100, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote:
> > some other with this opinion?

>   I believe most Debian Developers share this opinion. The BTS is
> the place to keep track of package issues, I, personally, don't like to go
> to other places (or don't have time to investigate them) to include
> patches/bug fixes (excluding upstream of course). 

I believe that translations change so often that the "real" bugs would
get lost in a pile of auto-generated bug reports. IMO it would be nice
to have a note "new translations available" on the BTS and PTS pages, so
you know that you need to call "ddtp-update-translations" or whatever
the mighty script will be called.

Most people will probably make a cron job that updates the descriptions
on all of their packages. Notifying these people is unnecessary.

   Simon

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: 040E B5F7 84F1 4FBC CEAD  ADC6 18A0 CC8D 5706 A4B4


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Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Theodore Reed]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:59:48 -0500
"H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 01:41:21PM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> [snip]
> > No, it doesn't.  It shows that the most frequently viewed
> > distribution pages on distrowatch.com are:
> > 
> > 1) Mandrake
> > 2) Red Hat
> > 3) Gentoo
> > 4) Debian
> > 
> > And the sample size is approximately 56000 page views.
> [snip]
> 
> And with enough obsessively reloading Debian users, we can easily skew
> the figures in Debian's favor. But that doesn't mean that Debian has
> suddenly become more popular.

Who says we need users. Python (or hell, even bash), wget and cron would
work nicely to the same effect. ;)

-- 
Theodore Reed (rizen/bancus)   -==-   http://www.surreality.us/
~OpenPGP Signed/Encrypted Mail Preferred; Finger me for my public key!~

"Like a man who has worn eyeglasses so long that he forgets he has them
on, we forget that the world looks to us the way it does because we have
become used to seeing it that way through a particular set of lenses."
-- Kenich Ohmae


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Bug#170932: ITP: libpqxx -- C++ library for connecting to a PostgreSQL database

[Oliver Elphick]

Package: wnpp
Version: unavailable; reported 2002-11-27
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: libpqxx
  Version : 0.0.1
  Upstream Author : Jeroen T. Vermeulen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://gborg.postgresql.org/
* License : BSD
  Description : C++ library for connecting to a PostgreSQL database

"There are many similar libraries for PostgreSQL and for other databases, some
of them database-independent.  Most of these, however, are fairly C-like in
their programming style, and fail to take advantage of the full power of the 
C++language as it has matured since the acceptance of the Standard in 1996.  
What 
libpqxx brings you is effective use of templates to reduce the inconvenience of
dealing with type conversions; of standard C++ strings to keep you from having 
to worry about buffer allocation and overflow attacks; of exceptions to take
the tedious and error-prone plumbing around error handling out of your hands;
of constructors and destructors to bring resource management under control; and
even basic object-orientation to give you some extra reliability features that
would be hard to get with most other database interfaces.

This package requires PostgreSQL to be installed--including the C headers for 
client development.  The library builds on top of PostgreSQL's standard C API, 
libpq."

The existing C++ interface for PostgreSQL is poorly supported and will be
superseded by this package.  I will retain the existing library for the
benefit of anyone who is already using it, but new C++ development with
PostgreSQL should use this library.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux linda 2.4.18smp #1 SMP Thu Aug 22 12:31:00 BST 2002 i686
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C

Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:59:13AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 22:36, Chris Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > The module should be:
> > /usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/gtk-2.0/bonobo/activationmodule.so
> > 
> > It seems to be in the python2.2-gnome2 package, at least on my system.
> 
> Hm, I seem to be suffering from the breakage in #169035.
> 
> > Maybe, although GNOME System Tools is perl-based, so I'm not entirely
> > sure it's a good idea from a dependency standpoint.
> 
> True enough.  I just wonder if there's a way you could somehow reuse
> some of the nice work they've done, like the root password prompt.

  And why not use GST backends instead of rewriting them? They can be
  get as an independent module from GNOME CVS. Perhaps I should package
  them separately to show that they're not stuck with GNOME System
  Tools, so they can also be used to write a KDE frontend. I do't like
  to see so much people reinventing the wheel. GST also needs an util
  for configuring the printers, so any help will be welcomed. And, FYI,
  current GST developers are using Debian for its development, so we
  have a lot of "power" among them ;)

   Cheers

-- 
  Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 02:21:47AM -0600, Chris Lawrence wrote:
> On Nov 27, Colin Walters wrote:
> > > Maybe, although GNOME System Tools is perl-based, so I'm not entirely
> > > sure it's a good idea from a dependency standpoint.
> > 
> > True enough.  I just wonder if there's a way you could somehow reuse
> > some of the nice work they've done, like the root password prompt.
> 
> Yes, some sort of "su to root" prompt is probably a good idea; dunno
> if I can reuse the existing code or what.  If not, something similar
> probably won't be hard to whip together (although I guess we probably
> have half a dozen "graphical su"s in Debian already).
> 
> FWIW, the GNOME System Tools root prompts don't seem to work for me...

  It works for me quite fine. If there's a problem, please, fill a bug.

-- 
  Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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gpg-agent?

[martin f krafft]

where can i find gpg-agent? is it packaged for debian? if not, then
i'll file an ITP unless someone has valid things to say against that.

-- 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, and user
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
NOTE: The public PGP keyservers are broken!
Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc


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Re: gpg-agent?

[Mikhail Sobolev]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 03:19:37PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> where can i find gpg-agent? is it packaged for debian? if not, then
> i'll file an ITP unless someone has valid things to say against that.
I believe, the only one is available in newpg package (not Debian),
which, I think, is the next generation gnupg. :)

--
Misha


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Re: gpg-agent?

[alex]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 03:19:37PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> where can i find gpg-agent? is it packaged for debian? if not, then
> i'll file an ITP unless someone has valid things to say against that.

there are packages by Marcus Brinkmann on ftp.gnupg.org, and I'm working
on adapting those to debian (with Marcus' permission).

alex
-- 
C _-=-_ H Janusz A. Urbanowicz, stomil at jabber.org, PGP 0x21939169*   
 ; (_O :  --- --+~| 
 ! &~) ?  PÅynÄÄ chcÄ na WschÃd, za Suez, gdzie jest dobrem kaÅde zÅo 
l_|/   
A ~-=-~ O Gdzie przykazaÅ brak dziesiÄciu, a piÄ moÅna aÅ po dno;   |  
 

location of UnicodeData.txt

[Radovan Garabik]

I am developping a (simple) application that needs to have
UnicodeData.txt file available. Of course there are more applications
that need this file. So far I found these two:
perl-modules: /usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/UnicodeData.txt 
console-data: /usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData-2.1.8.txt (way obsolete)

I was thinking about putting the file into something like
/usr/share/unidata (probably with more files, those from
/usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/).
Moreover, my application can use the file even if it is gzipped,
which is obviously desirable.

What are your opinions about this? I would rather not want
to Depend: on perl-modules (it is a python application :-)),
but duplicating /usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/UnicodeData.txt
seems a waste of diskspace and bandwidth, and messing up
with symlinks in postinst I like even less.


-- 
 ---
| Radovan Garabík http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk |
 ---
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Simon Richter wrote:
> I believe that translations change so often that the "real" bugs would
> get lost in a pile of auto-generated bug reports. IMO it would be nice

Rate-limit them to one per (week, month, maintainer-defined).  And make them
simple notifications that there are new updates to the po-debconf structure
for package foo...

> Most people will probably make a cron job that updates the descriptions
> on all of their packages. Notifying these people is unnecessary.

As long as the ddtd server is changed for po-debconf, that would be
feasible IMHO.  Heck, I'd love to have it export the translations as a CVS
repository...

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Michael Furr]

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 05:03, Roland Mas wrote:
> - Another idea I had was something along the lines of Debsmith or
>   Iansmith, to keep both the idea of Debian and the idea of the forge.
>   Unfortunately, plenty of people are called that way.  Any idea to
>   improve that line is welcome.  Maybe just smith.debian.org would be
>   enough (and I'll bet we can find a music composer named Smith if we
>   look hard enough).
I like this line of names because it is not as cryptic.  However I think
"debforge" has a better ring to it.

-m

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Peter Palfrader]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Michael Furr wrote:

> On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 05:03, Roland Mas wrote:
> > - Another idea I had was something along the lines of Debsmith or
> >   Iansmith, to keep both the idea of Debian and the idea of the forge.
> >   Unfortunately, plenty of people are called that way.  Any idea to
> >   improve that line is welcome.  Maybe just smith.debian.org would be
> >   enough (and I'll bet we can find a music composer named Smith if we
> >   look hard enough).
> I like this line of names because it is not as cryptic.  However I think
> "debforge" has a better ring to it.

Please no.

yours,
peter

-- 
 PGP signed and encrypted  |  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux **
messages preferred.| : :' :  The  universal
   | `. `'  Operating System
 http://www.palfrader.org/ |   `-http://www.debian.org/


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Bug#170945: ITP: therion -- Cave survey drawing software

[Wookey]

Package: wnpp
Version: N/A; reported 2002-11-27
Severity: wishlist

  Package name: therion
  Version : x.y.z
  Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  URL : http://www.therion.sk/
  License : GPL
  Description : Cave survey drawing software
  
Therion is a suite of programs to generate cave surveys/maps.
Therion uses Survex, metapost and pdftex to convert textual descriptions
of centreline, and passage drawings into finished PDF or postscript 
drawings in single-sheet or atlas form. 
  
A graphical front end (xtherion) allows the drawing data to be entered 
sensibly, either from new or traced over scanned background images. It
also helps with raw survey data entry, replacing the survex-svxedit package.


-- System Information
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux knossos 2.4.18-k7 #1 Sun Apr 14 13:19:11 EST 2002 i686
Locale: LANG=en_GB, LC_CTYPE=en_GB

Re: testing not getting updated?

[H. S. Teoh]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:16:13AM +0530, Ganesan R wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Has any one else noticed that testing is not getting updated. According to
> http://ftp-master.debian.org/testing/update_excuses.html.gz, the last run
> was on Nov 20th. If this is intentional, I don't remember seeing any mail
> about it. Does this have anything to do with satie going down, or is it just
> a coincidence?
[snip]

I believe it has to do with the latest glibc/libc6 issue in unstable. I
don't think it has anything to do with satie going down.


T

-- 
Too many people seek freedom but are enslaved by their seeking.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:26:16PM -0700, Joel Baker wrote:

> I must admit to some confusion, here. Should I take this as implying that
> there is no particular intent to try to make Debian-Installer play nicely
> on anything but Linux kernels?

Intent on whose part?  You would need to ask those involved in working on
debian-installer directly, and they may not even all have the same opinion.
Someone needs to do the work, though, and if you are willing, and your
solution is maintainable, I doubt your contribution would be turned away.

In my mind, there is some doubt as to whether this can be done without
sacrificing maintainability of (and slowing development of)
debian-installer.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> * "Joel Baker" 
> 
> | I might argue, in the case of APIs, that it is more a case of "If you don't
> | have time to do it right, how will you ever have time to do it over" - it
> | becomes *very* hard to un-entrench bad API choices, a lot of the time.
> 
> people seem to have the misconception that d-i is one big block of
> code with common APIs inside.  It is not.  It is a bunch of loosely
> coupled modules with little common API or code (except for debconf
> interaction, that is).  (Not necessarily pointing at you here.)

I suppose I had something like that misconception.  Where can I read
about the actaul construction of d-i?

Re: Discussion - non-free software removal

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 01:20:06PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Indeed, one of the faculty here at UCI, Aldo Antonelli is a die-hard
> > member of the Free Software community.  When I told him about Debian's
> > commitment to the principles free software he immediately decided to
> > switch his computers from Red Hat to Debian.  
> 
> Of course you realize, this sort of anecdote is not welcome in the
> discussion.  :-P

Hehe.  I should point out that I meant to say in that message that
Aldo is not a computer jock; he's a professor of Logic and Philosophy
of Science, not a hacker of any sort, but a rather niftily smart
logician.

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Radovan Garabik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I am developping a (simple) application that needs to have
> UnicodeData.txt file available. Of course there are more applications
> that need this file. So far I found these two:
> perl-modules: /usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/UnicodeData.txt 
> console-data: /usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData-2.1.8.txt (way obsolete)

Heh.  There's another:

miscfiles: /usr/share/misc/unicode.gz

The current version is Unicode 3.1.1.

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 01:10:33PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Simon Richter wrote:
> > I believe that translations change so often that the "real" bugs would
> > get lost in a pile of auto-generated bug reports. IMO it would be nice

> Rate-limit them to one per (week, month, maintainer-defined).  And make them
> simple notifications that there are new updates to the po-debconf structure
> for package foo...

Why create such a complicated system just to avoid integrating this
information into the BTS where it belongs?  I would be *elated* if any of
my packages ever received translation bugs often enough for two of them
to sit open at a time.  As it is, getting debconf translations for
packages is a lot like pulling teeth, and any system that would have
maintainers add another step to their routine (besides keeping track of
bug reports) in order to get this information is little better.

> > Most people will probably make a cron job that updates the descriptions
> > on all of their packages. Notifying these people is unnecessary.

I have never heard anyone complain about receiving bug reports (at the
proper severity) containing new debconf translations.  Perhaps
notifications are not /necessary/, but why are they /inappropriate/?
What are the implications for packages whose maintainers don't feel
bothered to set up cronjobs?

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: gpg-agent?

[Colin Walters]

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 09:19, martin f krafft wrote:
> where can i find gpg-agent? is it packaged for debian? if not, then
> i'll file an ITP unless someone has valid things to say against that.

Have you looked at quintuple-agent?

Re: gpg-agent?

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Colin Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.11.27.1754 +0100]:
> > where can i find gpg-agent? is it packaged for debian? if not, then
> > i'll file an ITP unless someone has valid things to say against that.
> 
> Have you looked at quintuple-agent?

it's a horrible security threat. i am not going to give my GPG
passphrase to that thing! i've heard that gpg-agent can do better...

-- 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, and user
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
NOTE: The public PGP keyservers are broken!
Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc


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Re: gpg-agent?

[Mikhail Sobolev]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:54:56AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 09:19, martin f krafft wrote:
> > where can i find gpg-agent? is it packaged for debian? if not, then
> > i'll file an ITP unless someone has valid things to say against that.
> 
> Have you looked at quintuple-agent?
It's a completely different thing with somewhat similar functionality.
But at the first sight, it's very suspicious...

--
Misha


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Planned mass-filing of bugs: java packages only depending on java-common

[Stephen Zander]

There are a significant number of lib*-java packages whose only
dependency is on java-common.  While the java policy has condoned this
behaviour in the past, it is non-sensical to do in the same way it is
non-sensical of C libraries not to depend on libc.  This is due to the
use of standard java.* classes in these libraries, classes which are
not provided by java-common.  I'm filing these as important bugs as
these packages currently have incomplete dependency information.

To that end I will be filing important bugs against any lib*-java
package that does not depend on either java1-runtime or java2-runtime
(should the package required features of the standard java.* classes
that are only included in the j2se specification).  There has been
some discussion on debian-java aboout whether java1-runtime is an
appropriate name; should it be generally decided that some other
virtual package name would be more appropriate, the bugs will be
changed appropriately.

-- 
Stephen

"Farcical aquatic ceremonies are no basis for a system of government!"

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:46:01AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:

> I suppose I had something like that misconception.  Where can I read
> about the actaul construction of d-i?

http://cvs.debian.org/debian-installer/doc/

-- 
 - mdz

Re: new build system

[Mateusz Papiernik]

> But unlike dpkg-source v2, you can start using CBS right now. Sound
> interesting?  Here's the URL where you can download CBS:
> http://cvs.verbum.org/debian/rules

Yes, it sounds interesting, but I had a problems with CBS and two 
packages (mainly GNU Gadu 2 from cvs and Kadu from kadu.net). It's all
ok, but when I do "debuild", at compile stage, it cannot find includes,
for example, when I type make manually I see:

gcc -c -o -I.. -I../.. -ggdb -O2 common.c

but when I do debuild or dpkg-buildpackage I see

gcc -c -o -ggdb -O2 common.c

In some cases, -I.. and -I../.. are ok, but program cannot find his
includes too. What's happening? And what is wrong? Or maybe, what am I
doing wrong?



-- 
Mati ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sounds like a Windows problem, try calling Microsoft support

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Richard Braakman]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:50:10AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Heh.  There's another:
> 
> miscfiles: /usr/share/misc/unicode.gz
> 
> The current version is Unicode 3.1.1.

According to http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.html there's
a version 3.2.

Hmm, is this file Free?  There's a license on that same page:

  Limitations on Rights to Redistribute This Data

 Recipient is granted the right to make copies in any form for
 internal distribution and to freely use the information supplied in
 the creation of products supporting the Unicode^TM Standard. The
 files in the Unicode Character Database can be redistributed to
 third parties or other organizations (whether for profit or not) as
 long as this notice and the disclaimer notice are retained.
 Information can be extracted from these files and used in
 documentation or programs, as long as there is an accompanying
 notice indicating the source.

Richard Braakman

Re: testing not getting updated?

[Anthony Towns]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:27:00AM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:16:13AM +0530, Ganesan R wrote:
> > Has any one else noticed that testing is not getting updated. According to
> > http://ftp-master.debian.org/testing/update_excuses.html.gz, the last run
> > was on Nov 20th. If this is intentional, I don't remember seeing any mail
> > about it. Does this have anything to do with satie going down, or is it just
> > a coincidence?
> I believe it has to do with the latest glibc/libc6 issue in unstable. I
> don't think it has anything to do with satie going down.

It's disabled due to non-US moving hosts (satie to klecker), it hasn't
been re-enabled yet since there's still some worries about whether non-US
has been recovered adequately; and the glibc issue means there's not a
huge amount of point to re-enabling it. :-/

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 ``If you don't do it now, you'll be one year older when you do.''

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Steve Greenland]

On 27-Nov-02, 11:04 (CST), Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> [use the BTS to notify maintainers about debconf translation updates]

What he said. An e-mail to the BTS (perhaps maint-only) with the
attached po file would be exactly what I'd want. (The BTS suport MIME
attachements now, right?)

Steve (another one)

-- 
Steve Greenland

The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Marcin Owsiany]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:24:10AM +0100, Francesco Paolo Lovergine wrote:
> I like maintaining the idea of forge, so my proposal is VULCAN
> (from Roman mithology).
> He was the God of volcanic fire and of metal work.

Maybe "lemnos"? This is where he used to work...

Marcin
-- 
Marcin Owsiany <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://marcin.owsiany.pl/
GnuPG: 1024D/60F41216  FE67 DA2D 0ACA FC5E 3F75  D6F6 3A0D 8AA0 60F4 1216

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Francesco Paolo Lovergine wrote:
> I like maintaining the idea of forge, so my proposal is VULCAN
> (from Roman mithology).

i prefer greek: hephaistos

then there is the Celtic mythos: brigid
   Irish (Bride in Scotland), great triple goddess. Fire goddess and
   crafts-smith. Christians turned her into a saint.

-john

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Mikael Olenfalk]

Just for your statistics: I finally come back to beloved and wonderful
Debian after having fought for a few weeks with a Gentoo-Desktop system.
My conclusion was - or is - that even if Gentoo has newer packages
sometimes and is using more modern techniques in some areas (the new
dependancy-based runlevel/init-system for example); the stability and
wellformedness of Debian (It just never breaks ;) ) is more important
than the bleeding-edge version of some packages.

That were my 2 cents ;)


Regards,

Mikael

-- 
Mikael Olenfalk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Netgineers

automatic selection which kernel image to install

[Thomas Lange]

Is there a script, that can automaticly determine the best or correct
name of the kernel-image that should be installed?

I think something with grep and sed from /proc/cpuinfo should write
k7, k6, 586tsc or someing else to stdout. Has someone created this
script already ?

  kernel-image-2.4.18-k7
  kernel-image-2.4.18-k6
  kernel-image-2.4.18-686-smp
  kernel-image-2.4.18-686
  kernel-image-2.4.18-586tsc
  kernel-image-2.4.18-386

-- 
 Thomas

Re: Pick a name, any name...

[Jaldhar H. Vyas]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Marcin Owsiany wrote:

> > He was the God of volcanic fire and of metal work.
>
> Maybe "lemnos"? This is where he used to work...
>

I thought the forge of Vulcan was Mt. Aetna in Sicily?  The original
"volcano".  Hey there's another Debian connection: we are also known for
producing large quantities of flaming spewage. :)


-- 
Jaldhar H. Vyas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
It's a girl! See the pictures - http://www.braincells.com/shailaja/

Re: Debian 3.0

[Michelle Konzack]

Hallo Herr Heisterkamp, 

dies ist eine englischsprachige Mailingliste... ;-)

Am 15:44 2002-11-25 +0100 hat Jens Heisterkamp geschrieben:
>
>Guten Tag,
>
>Ich wolte einen Debian 3.0 ( woody ) aufsetzen mit einen 3ware Raid
>Controller und wolte mal nachfragen ob es von Ihnen Treiber für Diskette
>gibt um diese vor der Installation zu laden um direckt mit dem Raid zu
>installieren ?

Module fuer die 3Ware Raid Controller sind vorhanden, einfach 
mal am prompt als root 'modconf' aufrufen und suchen. Sollten 
sie nirgends sein, Die Kernel-Sourcen (2.4.xx) herunterladen 
und einen eigenen Kernel mit den entsprechenden Modulen fuer 
den Controller Kompilieren. 

Vieleicht ist die mailingliste debian-user-german@lists.debian.org 
fuer Sie besser geeignet (wegen der Sprache). 

Michelle

Re: Discussion - non-free software removal

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 02:12 2002-11-25 -0800 hat Adam McKenna geschrieben:
>On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 09:34:44AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 02:09:59PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
>> > But I do not use contrib or non-free. Nobody had ask for non-free 
>> > and contrib if I burn CD's for some one... 
>> 
>> An important data point, I'd think...
>
>Yes, someone write that down.  Michelle in Strabourg doesn't need non-free.
>
>Anecdotal evidence is so much more compelling when it supports your cause,
>eh?

I think, supporting (distributing) of non-free ist waste of bandwidth 
and money... and the same for contrib...

Does the Enterprises/Developpers of non-free sponsor Debian or the FSF ?

The only Package I use from non-free is pcnfsd because my dos-client ;-) 

Michelle

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Colin Watson]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:00:20PM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
> On 27-Nov-02, 11:04 (CST), Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> > [use the BTS to notify maintainers about debconf translation updates]
> 
> What he said. An e-mail to the BTS (perhaps maint-only) with the
> attached po file would be exactly what I'd want. (The BTS suport MIME
> attachements now, right?)

Correct. There should be no problem attaching .po files, and I'd
encourage translators to do this because it's then less likely for
mailers to mangle their encoding in transit.

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Discussion - non-free software removal

[sean finney]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:21:41PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> I think, supporting (distributing) of non-free ist waste of bandwidth 
> and money... and the same for contrib...

i think the bandwidth taken and disk space taken up by non-free is
exceptionally small compared to main.  i haven't been fully following
this thread, but it seems the question is more of an ideological one
with regards to the DFSG and the social contract, though personally
i think it's rather moot because iirc non-free already isn't part of
debian, it's just a convenience offered by debian and some generous dd's.

also, how is it a waste of money, apart from bandwidth?  

sean


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Description: PGP signature

Re: automatic selection which kernel image to install

[Tomas Pospisek's Mailing Lists]

You might want to talk to the debian-installer people. They either might
have some ideas about it or will certainly be interested...

Grep the -devel list for debian-installer and Tollef Fog Heen.
*t

--
---
 Tomas Pospisek
 SourcePole   -  Linux & Open Source Solutions
 http://sourcepole.ch
 Elestastrasse 18, 7310 Bad Ragaz, Switzerland
 Tel: +41 (81) 330 77 11
---

Re: automatic selection which kernel image to install

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:25:35PM +0100, Thomas Lange wrote:

> Is there a script, that can automaticly determine the best or correct
> name of the kernel-image that should be installed?
> 
> I think something with grep and sed from /proc/cpuinfo should write
> k7, k6, 586tsc or someing else to stdout. Has someone created this
> script already ?

I don't know of one, but if you write one, it might make a nice (optional)
addition to debian-installer.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: automatic selection which kernel image to install

[sean finney]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:25:35PM +0100, Thomas Lange wrote:
> Is there a script, that can automaticly determine the best or correct
> name of the kernel-image that should be installed?
> 
> I think something with grep and sed from /proc/cpuinfo should write
> k7, k6, 586tsc or someing else to stdout. Has someone created this
> script already ?

i don't know of anything that currently does that, but it would be
totally sweet to have it!  one could create something like a
kernel-image-2.4.x "task" that then selects the approprate package to
install based on that.  just take something like

sed -ne 's/^model name.* //p' < /proc/cpuinfo

and cross reference it with a list of supported systems for each kernel.

--sean


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Re: DAM approval wait time?

[Jim Lynch]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:52:16 +1100
Andrew Lau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 08:01:26AM -0800, Jim Lynch wrote:
> > But what are you actually going to -do-? If I recall correctly,
> > you've said on IRC that you aren't or don't want to be a coder
> > (correct me if I'm wrong), and a previous attempt on your part to
> > become a developer left NM with the question of what you intended to
> > do crossed with what you had the skills to do. Perusing your entry
> > in NM, you have passed the skills test. Congrats. But my question
> > still stands...
> 
> > On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:08:29 +1000 Andrew Lau
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Dear Jim,
>   A bit hypocritical of you pointing out that I was
> participating in my own thread late. 

Not at all. The thread I refer to is the now-very-large "Are we losing
users to Gentoo" thread, which you have not participated in since your
inception of it. It's getting more and more irrelevent in my mind 
whether you have other responsibilities; there is -no-one- who is a
debian maintainer who does not.

Lots of material in that thread... should we expect some of it to be
used at DP and some in your exit thesis? Sorry, but I'm not putting
this past you.

> I have to ask, are you pursuing
> some kind of vendetta against me? I can't explain why else you are
> digging everything you know about me and using whatever I may have
> said on #debian years ago against me.

All I'm doing in the post you replied to is asking the question "What
exactly do you intend to do as a debian developer?", a question
reflected in the process of your NM app. You should simply answer it. 

On the other hand, seeing the thread you started with material you
-know- to be inflamitory, I am led to question your maturity. As I
mention below, however, the ensuing discussion may lead to some good
results.

> What you know of me from the
> days when I was still in high school may not still correctly apply to
> me today.

I was hoping you'd say that, but you still have growing up to do.

> Are you expecting me to prove myself to you in some way?

Given some contradictory statements you've made... as a matter of fact,
I am expecting you to prove yourself as being a mature developer, or at
least showing growth toward becoming mature. I see some inklings, but I
also see some steps back.

>   Please look at my entry on QA:
> . Also note that
> my filmgimp packages  have also been
> uploaded and are now awaiting processing by ftpmaster.

So it looks like you're actually doing stuff... Good. In fact, it
looks like you're doing a lot of work, this garnered from the many
ITP bugs you have filed. I also see that you have formed your own
aptable repository; -very- good. This makes it possible to review
and try your work.

> I can, have,
> and will continue packaging software that I find useful for Debian
> GNU/Linux and carry out any responsibilities expected from any Debian
> developer even though I am not officially recognised as one yet.

Good, but some of your other statements contradict this...

   I might as well stop telling others that Debian is more
   than just a distribution, but a community and just throw my packages
   out the window.

And here's a statement that shows intent to produce a flame war:

   Bring on the fucking flame-war. Something has to burn. Might as well
   be me.

Both of these from Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. And that
is from -this- thread.

PLEASE grow up.

Maybe you have noticed that many of the developers know how to -discuss-
without this kind of drama. Sure, people get pissed off sometimes; you
can look at yours as it being your turn and let it go at that. I'm
also willing to look at it this way, but obviously not without comment :)

Many incidents of what are called flamewars here have large bodies of
real discussion and useful information, and that even applies to the
gentoo thread you started. 

Why start something like that and then not participate? Do you even read
the messages? Why not do so RIGHT NOW if you have not? The netizen way
would be to read ALL of them before posting a single word. Perhaps you
can contribute usefully to the thread, assuming you can look at it as
being non-dramatic. There are some good ideas, some differences of
opinion, some non-useful crap as well as some discussion that might
actually produce a result. Go look, and do so -before- reacting to this
post.

Summary, I'm not so happy with your present level of maturity and a
few of your actions as a result, but I also see you're making some
effort. Also, DP has grown into a great resource, and you are partly
responsible for that.

> Yours sincerely,
> Andrew "Netsnipe" Lau

-Jim

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Denis Barbier]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 01:03:59AM +, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 01:41:34AM +0100, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis 
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 05:54:21PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > >   We've started the translation of debconf templates some weeks ago.
> > > >   See http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/gnuplot/ddts-stat.png 
> > 
> > It seems that you don't use po-debconf: isn't it?
> > AFAIK we all should switch to po-debconf for a better translation system.
> 
> If we're going to do that I think it would be a good idea to get
> po-debconf into a stable update, so that backporting packages to woody
> doesn't become more difficult than it needs to be.

A po-debconf package for woody is available at
  http://people.debian.org/~barbier/devel/woody/
But take care that dh_installdebconf in woody does not handle po-debconf
templates, you have to call po2debconf as explained in the README.Debian
file.

Denis

Re: gpg-agent?

[Marco d'Itri]

On Nov 27, Colin Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 >> where can i find gpg-agent? is it packaged for debian? if not, then
 >> i'll file an ITP unless someone has valid things to say against that.
 >Have you looked at quintuple-agent?
Yes, it does not work well.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: automatic selection which kernel image to install

[Vonsur Kcin]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 03:22:12PM -0500, sean finney wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:25:35PM +0100, Thomas Lange wrote:
> > Is there a script, that can automaticly determine the best or correct
> > name of the kernel-image that should be installed?
> > 
> > I think something with grep and sed from /proc/cpuinfo should write
> > k7, k6, 586tsc or someing else to stdout. Has someone created this
> > script already ?
> 
> i don't know of anything that currently does that, but it would be
> totally sweet to have it!  one could create something like a
> kernel-image-2.4.x "task" that then selects the approprate package to
> install based on that.  just take something like
> 
> sed -ne 's/^model name.* //p' < /proc/cpuinfo
> 
> and cross reference it with a list of supported systems for each kernel.

Hmm, something like:

#!/bin/bash

cpuid=sed -ne 's/^model name.*: //p' < /proc/cpuinfo

case "$cpuid" in
"AMD Athlon"*)
  echo k7
  ;;
"AMD K6"*)
  echo k6
  ;;
"Celeron"*)
  echo 686
  ;;
"Pentium "*)
  echo 586tsc
  ;;
*)
  echo 386
esac

:)

Of course this is non-exhaustive. Just all the CPUs I had laying
around...

-- 
-><- Nick Rusnov
-><- http://nick.industrialmeats.com
-><- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Branden Robinson]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 07:59:00PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:50:10AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Heh.  There's another:
> > 
> > miscfiles: /usr/share/misc/unicode.gz
> > 
> > The current version is Unicode 3.1.1.
> 
> According to http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.html there's
> a version 3.2.
> 
> Hmm, is this file Free?  There's a license on that same page:

This is a question for -legal, FYI.

>   Limitations on Rights to Redistribute This Data
> 
>  Recipient is granted the right to make copies in any form for
>  internal distribution and to freely use the information supplied in
>  the creation of products supporting the Unicode^TM Standard. The
>  files in the Unicode Character Database can be redistributed to
>  third parties or other organizations (whether for profit or not) as
>  long as this notice and the disclaimer notice are retained.
>  Information can be extracted from these files and used in
>  documentation or programs, as long as there is an accompanying
>  notice indicating the source.

I see no problem with this license as far as it goes, but it doesn't go
far enough.

There is no permission granted to make modifications (and distribute
modified versions).  (DFSG 3)

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|   Convictions are more dangerous
Debian GNU/Linux   |   enemies of truth than lies.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |   -- Friedrich Nietzsche
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |


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Re: automatic selection which kernel image to install

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:46:20PM -0800, Vonsur Kcin wrote:

> case "$cpuid" in
> "AMD Athlon"*)
>   echo k7
>   ;;
> "AMD K6"*)
>   echo k6
>   ;;
> "Celeron"*)
>   echo 686
>   ;;
> "Pentium "*)
>   echo 586tsc
>   ;;
> *)
>   echo 386
> esac
> 
> :)
> 
> Of course this is non-exhaustive. Just all the CPUs I had laying
> around...

Shouldn't be too hard to get it to be "good enough" with a few contributed
data points.  e.g., "Pentium II" is a 686.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: DAM approval wait time?

[Emile van Bergen]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:21:40PM -0800, Jim Lynch wrote:

[SNIP]
> I was hoping you'd say that, but you still have growing up to do.
> 
> > Are you expecting me to prove myself to you in some way?
> 
> Given some contradictory statements you've made... as a matter of fact,
> I am expecting you to prove yourself as being a mature developer, or at
> least showing growth toward becoming mature. I see some inklings, but I
> also see some steps back.

Bleurch, could we skip the belitteling and treat people with a little
respect? This arrogance makes me *puke*. Sorry. I don't care who you are
or who Andrew is. This is totally out of bounds, in /any/ circumstance.

Thanks,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies / Emile van Bergen   |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153|   http://www.e-advies.info


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Bug#170988: ITP: libdbh1.0-1 -- Creates disk based hashtables

[Martin Loschwitz]

Package: wnpp
Version: unavailable; reported 2002-11-27
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: libdbh1.0-1
  Version : 1.0.11
  Upstream Author : Edscott Wilson Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://dbh.sourceforge.net/
* License : GPL
  Description : Creates disk based hashtables

DBH is a library to create Disk Based Hashtables on POSIX systems. For
further details about Disk based hashtables, please have a look at
http://dbh.sourceforge.net/ where you can find a small FAQ.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux minerva 2.5.49-ac2 #1 Wed Nov 27 14:06:26 CET 2002 i686
Locale: LANG=en_US, LC_CTYPE=en_US

Bug#170987: ITP: gtk-xfce-engine -- A GTK+-2.0 theme engine for Xfce

[Martin Loschwitz]

Package: wnpp
Version: unavailable; reported 2002-11-27
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: gtk-xfce-engine
  Version : 2.0.10+cvs.20021127
  Upstream Author : Olivier Fourdan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.xfce.org/
* License : GPL
  Description : A GTK+-2.0 theme engine for Xfce

This package contains an XFCE engine for GTK2.0 which makes you able
to use various GTK2.0 themes with Xfce. It also contains some ready
engines, but you are of course free to design your own.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux minerva 2.5.49-ac2 #1 Wed Nov 27 14:06:26 CET 2002 i686
Locale: LANG=en_US, LC_CTYPE=en_US

Bug#170985: ITP: xffm4 -- File manager for the Xfce4 desktop environment

[Martin Loschwitz]

Package: wnpp
Version: unavailable; reported 2002-11-27
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: xffm4
  Version : 4.0.0+cvs.20021127
  Upstream Author : Biju Chacko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.xfce.org/
* License : GPL
  Description : File manager for the Xfce4 desktop environment

xffm is supposed to become the new file manager of the Xfce4 desktop
environment once it is finished. It tries to implement some of the
features from the GNOME nautilus file browser for Xfce4. However,
actually xffm4 is far away from being finished, thus it's worth
having a look at it.
 
-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux minerva 2.5.49-ac2 #1 Wed Nov 27 14:06:26 CET 2002 i686
Locale: LANG=en_US, LC_CTYPE=en_US

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Jim Penny]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 03:54:35PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 07:59:00PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:50:10AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > > Heh.  There's another:
> > > 
> > > miscfiles: /usr/share/misc/unicode.gz
> > > 
> > > The current version is Unicode 3.1.1.
> > 
> > According to http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.html there's
> > a version 3.2.
> > 
> > Hmm, is this file Free?  There's a license on that same page:
> 
> This is a question for -legal, FYI.
> 
> >   Limitations on Rights to Redistribute This Data
> > 
> >  Recipient is granted the right to make copies in any form for
> >  internal distribution and to freely use the information supplied in
> >  the creation of products supporting the Unicode^TM Standard. The
> >  files in the Unicode Character Database can be redistributed to
> >  third parties or other organizations (whether for profit or not) as
> >  long as this notice and the disclaimer notice are retained.
> >  Information can be extracted from these files and used in
> >  documentation or programs, as long as there is an accompanying
> >  notice indicating the source.
> 
> I see no problem with this license as far as it goes, but it doesn't go
> far enough.
> 
> There is no permission granted to make modifications (and distribute
> modified versions).  (DFSG 3)

So, according to Branden, international standards are supposed to allow 
debian the right to modify them and to distribute the modified versions.  
Absent said permission, which is hardly ever going to be given,  they 
must be considered non-free.  (This is, of course, logically forthright.) 
Moreover, according to the non-free removal proponents, we should not 
even distribute the un-modified copies of these files.

Yet, unicode is supposed to be the canonical character encoding scheme
for debian.  

Does this mean every unicode text editor belongs in contrib (depends on
something non-free)?

What an interesting anecdote!

Jim Penny

Re: DAM approval wait time?

[sean finney]

excuse me for voicing up here, but this seems like something that
didn't need to be sent to the entire debian-devel mailing list.

granted, i'm not even a developer, but i get the impression this is
more the result of you two not getting along and less having to do
with his ability to be a productive member of the -devel community.
or at least, you could have been more professional and concise in the
-devel response and left the pedantry to a private response.

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:21:40PM -0800, Jim Lynch wrote:



sean


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Re: automatic selection which kernel image to install

[sean finney]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:46:20PM -0800, Vonsur Kcin wrote:
> cpuid=sed -ne 's/^model name.*: //p' < /proc/cpuinfo

just don't forget the backticks :)


> case "$cpuid" in
> "AMD Athlon"*)
>   echo k7
>   ;;


yeah, even simpler than i was thinking!


sean


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Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Branden Robinson]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:23:51PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote:
> > I see no problem with this license as far as it goes, but it doesn't go
> > far enough.
> > 
> > There is no permission granted to make modifications (and distribute
> > modified versions).  (DFSG 3)
> 
> So, according to Branden, international standards are supposed to allow 
> debian the right to modify them and to distribute the modified versions.  

No, international standards can say whatever they want, and bear
whatever license the standards organization wants, within the law.

Debian has its Free Software Guidelines and we do not, in theory, apply
them differently based on who the licensor is.

Incidentally, allowing "Debian the right to modify them and to
distribute the modified versions" would also be insufficient; perhaps
you haven't read the DFSG lately.

  8. License Must Not Be Specific to Debian

  The rights attached to the program must not depend on the program's being
  part of a Debian system. If the program is extracted from Debian and used or
  distributed without Debian but otherwise within the terms of the program's
  license, all parties to whom the program is redistributed should have the
  same rights as those that are granted in conjunction with the Debian system.

> Absent said permission, which is hardly ever going to be given,  they 
> must be considered non-free.  (This is, of course, logically forthright.) 

Well, yes.  That is what the words of the DFSG mean.

> Moreover, according to the non-free removal proponents, we should not 
> even distribute the un-modified copies of these files.

I cannot speak for all proponents of the proposed GR, but yes, that's my
understanding.

> Yet, unicode is supposed to be the canonical character encoding scheme
> for debian.  

I don't see that in the current version of the Policy manual, but it
wouldn't surprise me if we were to standardize on Unicode, since it
seems to be the best-of-breed in the character set department.

> Does this mean every unicode text editor belongs in contrib (depends on
> something non-free)?

Many (perhaps all) RFCs are non-free as well; does that mean that
compliant implementations must go into contrib or non-free?

> What an interesting anecdote!

I do not grasp what place emotionalism has in a simple, coolheaded
discussion of licensing.  If you are upset with the ramifications of the
DFSG, you can always propose a General Resolution to amend its terms, or
repeal it entirely, perhaps in favor of something more pragmatic.

Incidentally, is there a reason you did not respect the Mail-Followup-To
header?

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|I have a truly elegant proof of the
Debian GNU/Linux   |above, but it is too long to fit
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |into this .signature file.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |


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Bug#170990: ITP: pyslsk -- A client for the SoulSeek peer-to-peer sharing system

[Josselin Mouette]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist

* Package name : pyslsk
  Version : 0.4.9b
  Upstream Author : Alexander Kanavin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.sensi.org/~ak/pyslsk/
* License : GPL
  Description : A client for the SoulSeek peer-to-peer sharing system
PySoulSeek is a client for SoulSeek, a light and efficient file sharing 
system, written in python and using the wxWindows toolkit.

Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Chris Lawrence]

On Nov 27, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
>   And why not use GST backends instead of rewriting them? They can be
>   get as an independent module from GNOME CVS. Perhaps I should package
>   them separately to show that they're not stuck with GNOME System
>   Tools, so they can also be used to write a KDE frontend. I do't like
>   to see so much people reinventing the wheel. GST also needs an util
>   for configuring the printers, so any help will be welcomed. And, FYI,
>   current GST developers are using Debian for its development, so we
>   have a lot of "power" among them ;)

At least in the case of foomatic-gui, the backend is pretty universal;
all it needs are foomatic-printjob and foomatic-configure in the path
(although it does need to reload CUPS if it's not in the path; CUPS
dumps raw PostScript to a new printer until it's reloaded :-/).


Chris
-- 
Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/

Computer Systems Manager, Physics and Astronomy, Univ. of Mississippi
125B Lewis Hall - 662-915-5765

Re: [desktop] foomatic-gui is born

[Chris Lawrence]

On Nov 27, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
> It would be good if we had a standard way of doing that... I talked to
> walters about this some weeks ago, and he suggested it would be a good
> thing to merge xsu, gnome-sudo and gksu (maybe others?).
> 
> I'm willing to work towards this, and I think it would be good to
> create some policy for that, probably modify the su-to-root script
> to use a "graphical su" alternative if $DISPLAY is set... 

That sounds like a good idea.  It would be nice to also have the GNOME
Setup Tools option of 'proceed as current user' as a standard option
that could be enabled if needed.


Chris
-- 
Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/

Computer Systems Manager, Physics and Astronomy, Univ. of Mississippi
125B Lewis Hall - 662-915-5765

Re: gpg-agent?

[Brian May]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 06:22:55PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > Have you looked at quintuple-agent?
> 
> it's a horrible security threat. i am not going to give my GPG
> passphrase to that thing! i've heard that gpg-agent can do better...

What is the security model of each, and why is one better then
the other?
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Ian Jackson in New Zealand

[Ian Jackson]

I wrote:
> > Work are sending me to Asiacrypt, which is in Queenstown from the
> > 1st to the 5th of December.  I'm also going to be taking some time
> > in NZ for sightseeing etc.  [...]  If anyone in NZ would like to
> > meet up please let me know ASAP.  It'd be good to go out for a
> > drink or three.

Firstly timing and email info: I'm leaving tomorrow at
approx. 0930GMT.  I'm not sure whether I'll have email at my hotel,
and if I do have email it may only be at my insecure [EMAIL PROTECTED]
account (which I'm using for the From: here) and may only be until the
5th of December.  So, don't send mail me anything to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED] that needs attention before I get back.  My hotel details
for at least the first 5 days are below.

Philip Charles writes ("Re: Ian Jackson in New Zealand"):
> There are a number of us in Dunedin.

So I see :-).  Ben Handley (who some of you may know, apparently) also
suggested I get in touch with Tim Nicholas, so I've CC'd Tim at his
webby address.

Nick Phillips writes ("Re: Ian Jackson in New Zealand"):
> If you can get from Queenstown to Dunedin, we can show you the *real*
> penguins...

Well, I'm probably going to be in Auckland on parts of the 11th and
15th of December at least (off to at least Rotorua in between).  How
practical is it to get between Auckland and Dunedin ?  I'm not averse
to making a bit of a trip to find some like-minded geeks :-).

John Morton writes ("Re: Ian Jackson in New Zealand"):
> If you range as far afield as Nelson (city at the top of the South Island 
> near Abel Tasman National Park),  give me a call on +64 21 527 866, or 
> 021 527 866. I have some co-workers who need a little help seeing the light,
> as we're about to migrate the os for a gateway NAT box from Redhat to Debian 
> :-)

I haven't got my planning that well-sorted, but I'll take your phone
number with me and if I'm going to end up anywhere nearby I'll give
you a call.  (Same goes for everyone else.)

John also asks:
> Mao as in Gnomic Mao? Peculiar 'make the rules up as you go' card game 
> popularised by Doug Hofstadter? 

The Mao that I know came via various people but appears to have a
common origin at one or more Maths Olympiads.  It does involve
inventing rules, but only in a strictly controlled manner :-).  I find
it's good when played a little drunk, although you can find people who
take it very seriously too.  I'm not familiar with Doug Hofstadter's
variant.  NB that any websites you read which claim to state the rules
of Mao are lying (or at least, not telling you the One True Mao) -
it's one of the rules that you can't explain the rules.

Anyway, my actual flight details are:

  2002-11-28   LHR dep 1425  NZ 1
  2002-11-30   Auckland   arr 0545 dep 1000  NZ 639
   Queenstown arr 1150

  2002-12-11   Queenstown  dep 1100  NZ 642
   Auckland   arr 1245

  2002-12-15   Aucklanddep 1645  NZ 2
  2002-12-16   LHRarr 0910

My hotel (checking out 6th December) is:
  Copthorne Hotel
  Private Bag
  Queenstown
  +64 3 442 8123 (voice)
  +64 3 442 7472 (fax)

Thanks all,
Ian.

Re: debconf template translations from ddtp

[Michael Bramer]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 02:23:56PM +0100, Simon Richter wrote:
> Javier/Michael,
> 
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 02:04:28PM +0100, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña 
> wrote:
> > > some other with this opinion?
> 
> > I believe most Debian Developers share this opinion. The BTS is
> > the place to keep track of package issues, I, personally, don't like to go
> > to other places (or don't have time to investigate them) to include
> > patches/bug fixes (excluding upstream of course). 
> 
> I believe that translations change so often that the "real" bugs would
> get lost in a pile of auto-generated bug reports. IMO it would be nice
> to have a note "new translations available" on the BTS and PTS pages, so
> you know that you need to call "ddtp-update-translations" or whatever
> the mighty script will be called.

IMHO this changes of the translation is the big problem. 

And the server translate the description not on a package base. If I
templates file has 10 templates, the server will submit 10 bug reports
per language. 

Gruss
Grisu
-- 
Michael Bramer  -  a Debian Linux Developer  http://www.debsupport.de
PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Linux Sysadmin   -- Use Debian Linux
"Every use of Linux is a proper use of Linux."
  -- John "Maddog" Hall, Keynote at the Linux Kongress in Cologne


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Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Brian May]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:23:51PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote:
> So, according to Branden, international standards are supposed to allow 
> debian the right to modify them and to distribute the modified versions.  
> Absent said permission, which is hardly ever going to be given,  they 
> must be considered non-free.  (This is, of course, logically forthright.) 
> Moreover, according to the non-free removal proponents, we should not 
> even distribute the un-modified copies of these files.

I raised this issue not long ago, on this mailing list. See thread
starting from Message-ID <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
(sorry, I don't know how to convert this to a URL on lists.debian.org).

Just out of curiosity, are documents like the DFSG distrubuted with
Debian?

If so, are you allowed to modify them?

(I assume documents like the GPL, being licenses, are excempt from this
requirement?)

Also, I note that /usr/doc/debian-policy/copyright (woody) has a
copyright for FSSTND, and it says "No portion of this document may be
redistributed in any modified or abridged form without the prior
approval of the FSSTND coordinator.".

Does this mean that the FSSTND should never have been distributed with
Debian? Obviously it must have been at one stage, or it wouldn't be in
the copyright file.
--
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Planned mass-filing of bugs: java packages only depending on java-common

[Brian May]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:33:49AM -0800, Stephen Zander wrote:
> To that end I will be filing important bugs against any lib*-java
> package that does not depend on either java1-runtime or java2-runtime
> (should the package required features of the standard java.* classes
> that are only included in the j2se specification).  There has been
> some discussion on debian-java aboout whether java1-runtime is an
> appropriate name; should it be generally decided that some other
> virtual package name would be more appropriate, the bugs will be
> changed appropriately.

errr... shouldn't you decide on the name first, then file bug reports?

So you don't penalize maintainers who are extra fast to change it to
java1-runtime, and then realize that they have to change it again?
--
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: automatic selection which kernel image to install

[Brian May]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:46:20PM -0800, Vonsur Kcin wrote:
> *)
>   echo 386

Ideally have some way for the user to override the default choice if
automatic selection fails...
--
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Jim Penny]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:53:00PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:23:51PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote:
> > > I see no problem with this license as far as it goes, but it doesn't go
> > > far enough.
> > > 
> > > There is no permission granted to make modifications (and distribute
> > > modified versions).  (DFSG 3)
> > 
> > So, according to Branden, international standards are supposed to allow 
> > debian the right to modify them and to distribute the modified versions.  
> > Moreover, according to the non-free removal proponents, we should not 
> > even distribute the un-modified copies of these files.
> 
> I cannot speak for all proponents of the proposed GR, but yes, that's my
> understanding.
> 
> > Yet, unicode is supposed to be the canonical character encoding scheme
> > for debian.  
> 
> I don't see that in the current version of the Policy manual, but it
> wouldn't surprise me if we were to standardize on Unicode, since it
> seems to be the best-of-breed in the character set department.
> 
> > Does this mean every unicode text editor belongs in contrib (depends on
> > something non-free)?
> 
> Many (perhaps all) RFCs are non-free as well; does that mean that
> compliant implementations must go into contrib or non-free?

I notice that you did not answer.  

As far as I can tell, given the current definition, the logically 
coherent answer is yes.  There is some wiggle room in this. See below.

> 
> > What an interesting anecdote!
> 
> I do not grasp what place emotionalism has in a simple, coolheaded
> discussion of licensing.  If you are upset with the ramifications of the
> DFSG, you can always propose a General Resolution to amend its terms, or
> repeal it entirely, perhaps in favor of something more pragmatic.

Anecdote.  A particular fact of an interesting nature.

> 
> Incidentally, is there a reason you did not respect the Mail-Followup-To
> header?

Yup, the anecdote had nothing to do with legal.  Had a lot to do with
the ramifications of the more radical interpretations of the DFSG and
the consequences of these interpretations.  It was interesting to see
you argue that a license was non-free.  To be consistent with the GR,
you should have been observing that it could not be a part of debian.

If there is a point in this, it is that the status quo ante allows some 
wiggle room.  In particular, section 5 of the social contract grants
this.  If you remove section 5, and reduce debian to only things
that have a DSFG license, the resulting axiomatic system can be used in
interesting ways.  In particular, recursive application of the axioms 
is very intersting.

Can an artifact that claims to be compliant with a non-DSFG free
standard itself be considered to be free?  That is, does it depend
on the standard for its execution?  Compare and contrast this with
an installer of a non-free package.  Note:  the typical installer can,
in fact, install an infinite number of items -- after all, most
installers are not strongly version dependent!

Jim Penny

Note:  there is an intentional ambiguity of the word "debian" above,
which will drive some fundamentalists crazy.  My definition of debian:
"the totality of software, documents, and other artifacts produced by
debian developers and contributed to the debian archives".

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[starner]

>> Does this mean every unicode text editor belongs in contrib (depends on
>> something non-free)?
>
>Many (perhaps all) RFCs are non-free as well; does that mean that
>compliant implementations must go into contrib or non-free?

The problem is, every character in Unicode, all 70,000 of them, has a
distinct set of properties. UnicodeData.txt is basically a listing of
those properties. If it is a copyrightable work, I see no way for a text
processing program to conform to Unicode without using a derivative of 
that copyrighted work. Likewise, I'd bet that file or some derivative of
it is embedded in both Perl and Python - you can't reasonably handle 
Unicode characters without it.

We could always pony up the $12,000 (or $1200 for an associate membership) 
and become a member of Unicode and complain about this from the inside. 

perl error

[Sergio Rua]

Hello,

I'm packaging the new version of openwebmail and I received this
error message:

WARNING!

The perl on your system has serious bug in routine tell()!
While openwebmail can work properly with this bug, other perl
application
may not function properly and thus cause data loss.

We suggest that you should patch your perl as soon as possible.


Is this true?

Greetings!

Sergio Rua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

-- Key fingerprint = 4B4B 1ED6 8F17 0E2B 0DA3  5978 BFB6 6565 1768 44B7