Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:17:10PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 11:55:35AM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> > > To rely on gracious behaviour from other organisms is a losing 
> > > evolutionary
> > > strategy, and to attempt to avoid bruised feelings by inducing change in
> > > social norms is a doomed proposition.
> > > 
> > > Adapt.
> > 
> > I read in Dawkins that "tit for tat" was the most evolutionarily stable
> > strategy.  :)
> 
> But didn't Tit for Two Tats compete favourably against simple Tit for Tat?

These days, incidentally, Prisoner's Dilemma is thought to be a poor
model for normal types of social interaction.  The more common cases
are actually best modeled by a "Stag Hunt", anyhow.

Which is the best strategy depends (of course) on all kinds of
details.  The early iterated prisoner's dilemma contests are
unfortunately all that most computer types have heard of, but the
state of the art has vastly moved on since then.  

Re: Ask yourself some questions

[Branden Robinson]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:19:13PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 11:54:43PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > >   Humour does not have to be at the expense of other
> > >  people.
> > 
> > Where's the evidence? (Heinlein would disagree with you)
> 
> Of course, this is an argument *in favor* of Manoj's proposition.
> Heinlein's track record is so poor, that anything he says is more
> likely wrong that right.

Well, a likelihood is not a certainly.  I, for one, certainly agree with
him that kissing girls is a goodness that beats the hell out of card
games...

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|You should try building some of the
Debian GNU/Linux   |stuff in main that is
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |modern...turning on -Wall is like
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |turning on the pain. -- James Troup


pgpfGxmgOQ6IH.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Pathological case for Debian packages search page

[H. S. Teoh]

This package:
http://packages.debian.org/unstable/editors/the.html

never shows up when you search for "the" in
http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages

I assume it's because the search engine ignores common words like "the"
:-) Also, because the BTS uses the search engine to link to the package
pages, the package link on the BTS page for "the" will never turn up
anything.

Now just think of all those poor people who are searching for "the" editor
on Google... :-P


T

-- 
The diminished 7th chord is the most flexible and fear-instilling chord. Use
it often, use it unsparingly, to subdue your listeners into submission!

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Benoit Peccatte]

On Thu, 2002-11-21 at 15:15, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > i remember a year or so ago when i complained about this worthless
> > practice i said that it would end up consuming hundreds of megabytes
> > - i was told that was ridiculous, it would never happen.
> 
> Megabytes!  Horrors.  You counted up to 96 MB in your computation,
> which I will assume to be correct.
> 
> Current cost of hard disk is something between $1.00 and $1.50 per
> gigabyte.
> 
> So that means that 96 MB costs the whopping sum of about twelve cents.
> Whom shall I write a check to?  And if it's hundreds of megabytes,
> which I'm happy to consider, then the cost of holding all those
> kernels might well rise to a whole dollar.
> 
> I just added up the size of all i386 packages in the pool on auric.
> (There are 15,688 of them, since there are multiple versions of many).
> That comes to the whopping amount of 6,367,729,045 bytes, which looks
> like a lot, except that it's really 6GB.  Oh my golly, that might be a
> whopping $10.
> 
> The total size of /org/ftp.debian.org/ftp/pool on auric is about 63
> GB.  Which is about right, since we have ten released ports.  

10% of the whole distribution : that's a lot
Moreover bandwidth costs too. 

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Branden Robinson]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:15:12PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Branden, could we afford to buy a couple 110 GB disks to hold this
> increase?

I really don't like to wear my SPI Treasurer hat on this mailing list,
and with that hat on I don't like to offer opinions about how Debian
should spend its money.

But, assuming a price of approx. US$128 for a 120GB IDE drive, yes,
Debian could afford two of these at a drain of less than 1% of its total
assets.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson| What influenced me to atheism was
Debian GNU/Linux   | reading the Bible cover to cover.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Twice.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- J. Michael Straczynski


pgpCN83dsls44.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: gpg error at developer.php after the fire

[Thorsten Sauter]

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 07:38:05PM +, Colin Watson wrote:
> Works for my key. Did it formerly find key ids for people who aren't in
> the Debian keyring?
I have tested it with my own key. And yes it was find before.
Think it find your because it is in the debian keyring and _not_ only
one one of the public gpg servers

> A bug report against qa.debian.org would be appropriate.
done. #170080

Bye
Thorsten

-- 
Thorsten Sauter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

(Is there life after /sbin/halt -p?)



pgpX2gFzC7keL.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Bernd Eckenfels]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 03:32:33PM -0500, Benoit Peccatte wrote:
> 10% of the whole distribution : that's a lot
> Moreover bandwidth costs too. 

multiple architectures can be placed on different servers. The overall
traffic will not increase and the overall disk space also wont.

But well, perhaps we can just stop supporting 

Re: gpg error at developer.php after the fire

[Rene Engelhard]

Hi Thorsten,

Thorsten Sauter wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 07:38:05PM +, Colin Watson wrote:
> > Works for my key. Did it formerly find key ids for people who aren't in
> > the Debian keyring?
> I have tested it with my own key. And yes it was find before.
> Think it find your because it is in the debian keyring and _not_ only

No, you defenitely are _not_ in the Debian keyring. Last time I looked
(before satie's death) you were at the begnning of the NM queue.

Only keys of DDs are in the keyring.,

Regards,

Rene
-- 
 .''`.  Rene Engelhard -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 : :' : http://www.debian.org | http://people.debian.org/~rene/
 `. `'  [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GnuPG-Key ID: 248AEB73
   `-   Fingerprint: 41FA F208 28D4 7CA5 19BB  7AD9 F859 90B0 248A EB73


pgpy6Mpy7X52x.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Chris Lawrence]

On Nov 21, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Now, if we were to have precompiled binaries for say ten different
> varieties of i386 (and I think that's enough to make anyone happy),
> the 6GB currently holding 386 packages would be 60, for a net increase
> of 54GB.
> 
> We'd need perhaps three different m68k varieties (two more than now),
> one more Sparc, one more alpha, no more powerpc IIUC, no more arm, one
> more mips, one more HPPA (or two?), no more ia64 or s390.  So that's
> nine more varities of 386 to consider, and maybe six for the other
> architectures.  So the total would be fifteen more copies of every
> package, and it's 6GB per copy, so the total storage requirement is
> about 90GB.

Bah, don't forget that you'd want multiple PPC (603e, 604e, G3, G4,
790...)  You could get away with 3 m68k (68020+MMU/030, 040, 060),
although you might want more (040 w soft-FPU emulation for the LC040).

Of course, this would also entail separate CD images for each possible
permutation.  ("What do you mean, I have to install these crizappy
i386 packages and then upgrade; I want ones optimized for my six-way
Athlon MP setup out of the box!  And don't give me Athlon XP packages,
it's *just not the same*; the timings on this one instruction give a
.0002% speedup, which dang-it I NEED!")

Not to mention build daemons for each possible permutation; some could
conceivably be hosted on existing boxes, but they'd need extra RAM or
disk space to keep up (and more people to keep an eye on them).

Oh, by the way, hurd-i386 and the *BSDs will want all of these
optimizations too.  Better double your estimate :-)


Chris, glad he picked up a 120GB drive the other day so he can build
custom CDs for all of these wacked-out optimizations.
-- 
Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/

Computer Systems Manager, Physics and Astronomy, Univ. of Mississippi
125B Lewis Hall - 662-915-5765

[mechanix@debian.org: Bug#169709: idesk: could use a better description]

[Thorsten Sauter]

Hi,

anyone can agree that this is a little bit more clearer?



Description: Display program shortcuts as icons on desktop
 With idesk you can define shortcut's for several programs
 and display these icons with a short description on the
 desktop of any window manager.
 .
 It can use png images as icon source (including transparent
 support) and support antialised fonts to print the description.



Thanks for you help...


- Forwarded message from Filip Van Raemdonck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -

The current description doesn't fullfill it's purpose.

> idesk plops icons down on your root window (desktop).

`Plops'? What's that?
And wearing my dummy desktop user hat, WTF is a root window?

> It includes support for PNG alpha layers, and pretty antialiased text
> with Xft

Same hat; what are alpha layers and Xft?
I'd rather just talk about translucent [1] icons and pretty antialiased [2]
text without mentioning PNG alpha layers or Xft.
Also, this sentence needs a . at the end, and it could be separated from the
previous one (although that isn't strictly necessary).

Now, I've read the entire description, and either as a dummy or non-dummy
user I still don't know what I can do with the icons. Are they:
- some sort of shortcuts?
- actual files and directories?
- both?
- icons for minimized applications, as in the iconbox of some motif based
  desktops?


Regards,

Filip

[1] Assuming that's what it does; if it only means that the icons can have
completely transparant parts that's hardly a feature, and I'd rather
consider it a misfeature of any icon using app which doesn't do that.

[2] It's debatable if a dummy user knows what antialiased text is, but it is
good enough a feature to mention it even if only for more experienced
computer users.

- End forwarded message -

Bye
Thorsten

-- 
Thorsten Sauter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

(Is there life after /sbin/halt -p?)



pgpdSX860mRQR.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeu 21/11/2002 à 21:44, Bernd Eckenfels a écrit :

> But well, perhaps we can just stop supporting  distribution and this will already help. Then a single dedicated server can
> host the "old system debian distribution" for 386/486 compatibility. PErhaps
> even with some space optimized binaries. So we have only 2 sub architectures
> and a build system for user optimized building.

I would strongly disagree with such a solution. And again, before
proposing to abandon some of our users, you should explain what benefit
our users would get from that.

-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: gpg error at developer.php after the fire

[Thorsten Sauter]

Hello,

hmm. maybe we misunderstand us :)

> No, you defenitely are _not_ in the Debian keyring.

I'm *not* in the debian keyring, but before the century crash :), my gpg key
was find by qa because it was stored on one of the public servers.
Please see for this the original error message also:
"GPG key id not found! (key id was not found neither in the Debian
keyring nor on a public keyserver)"
^^  <

> Last time I looked (before satie's death) you were at the begnning of the NM 
> queue.
Hope thats still true. :)

> Only keys of DDs are in the keyring.,
I know.


Bye
Thorsten

-- 
Thorsten Sauter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

(Is there life after /sbin/halt -p?)



pgpBZ25E2lEq1.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Benoit Peccatte]

On Thu, 2002-11-21 at 15:44, Bernd Eckenfels wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 03:32:33PM -0500, Benoit Peccatte wrote:
> > 10% of the whole distribution : that's a lot
> > Moreover bandwidth costs too. 
> 
> multiple architectures can be placed on different servers. The overall
> traffic will not increase and the overall disk space also wont.
> 
> But well, perhaps we can just stop supporting  distribution and this will already help. Then a single dedicated server can
> host the "old system debian distribution" for 386/486 compatibility. PErhaps
> even with some space optimized binaries. So we have only 2 sub architectures
> and a build system for user optimized building.

I was talking about kernels.

Anyways, this can be a god idea if :
- there are really few users of 386 and 486
- there is really an improvement using 586 binaries instead of 386 
 on an average machine.

Re: Test package apt repositories, and "Release" files.

[Graham Wilson]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 01:36:07PM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:19:50AM -0700, Joel Baker wrote:
> > And/or, has katie advanced to the point where mere mortals can actually get
> > it installed and working without taking a 3D6 SAN loss?
> > 
> > For all of it's limitations (and yes, I've failed to find time to patch it
> > to fix many of those, like lack of coping with pools), debarchiver is still
> > the only thing I've found that really copes with things and doesn't require
> > someone to do a lot of support work before it will produce useful results.
> 
> I haven't tried it, but I've heard some positive feedback about
> mini-dinstall.  Release file support is (on the) TODO list.

i use that for a private archive i work with and it is a great package.
it was a little difficult to install, but it works great and is now easy
to use. thanks colin.

--
gram


pgp28NgTHVIVo.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Yven Leist]

On Wednesday 20 November 2002 20:51, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 11:07:13AM -0800, Michael Cardenas wrote:
> > To quote from the gentoo intro:
> >
> > "(glibc-2.2.5, gcc 3.2, XFS, ReiserFS, ext3, EVMS, LVM, ALSA,
> > pcmcia-cs support, ... KDE 3.0 and 3.1_beta and GNOME 2.0.2"
> >
> > I sure those things appeal to a lot of users more than optimized
> > binaries that they can build themselves.
>
> And we have all of them except for the latest KDE and GNOME.  GNOME2 is
> working itself out in unstable right now, and KDE is only waiting for gcc
> 3.2 to be ready to be our default compiler.

And for all the people who just cannot live without it (like me ;-)), it's 
just a single line in your sources.list away...

Cheers,
Yven

-- 

Yven Johannes Leist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.leist.beldesign.de

Re: web browser bookmark defaults

[Jamie Wilkinson]

This one time, at band camp, Mark Howard wrote:
>I also vote for removing any other upstream bookmarks (e.g. rpm search,
>slackware searches). Feel free to disagree, with a convincing argument.

I use a Debian workstation, but admin a collection of Debian and Red Hat
machines -- remove the rpm search and I will be filing bugs.

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://people.debian.org/~jaq

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Benoit Peccatte]

On Thu, 2002-11-21 at 15:58, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeu 21/11/2002 à 21:44, Bernd Eckenfels a écrit :
> 
> > But well, perhaps we can just stop supporting  > distribution and this will already help. Then a single dedicated server can
> > host the "old system debian distribution" for 386/486 compatibility. PErhaps
> > even with some space optimized binaries. So we have only 2 sub architectures
> > and a build system for user optimized building.
> 
> I would strongly disagree with such a solution. And again, before
> proposing to abandon some of our users, you should explain what benefit
> our users would get from that.

I didn't understood this as an abandon of some users but as a separation
of people using old machines and people using more recent machines.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 11:51:34AM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:06:40AM +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > I don't believe that transfer will be CPU bound, but rather network and/or
> > internal bus bandwidth limited.
> 
> It is not unusual for large scp jobs to be CPU bound when slow-to-modest
> systems are connected to fast networks.

How fast are we talking about - GbE, or 100Mb?


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[Jonathan Oxer]

On Fri, 2002-11-22 at 06:36, Alexander Neumann wrote:
> John Goerzen wrote:
> >  GRUNT is a tool to let you execute commands remotely, offline.
> >  It will also let you copy files to a remote machine.
> 
> How did you solve the problem of re-sending such mails? Say, Joe Evil
> Cracker is able to catch a command mail containing "halt". Will he be
> able to shutdown my machine every time he want?

I can't speak for GRUNT (having no first-hand knowledge of it) but a
couple of ways to do this spring to mind.

For example, timestamp every message internally (so the timestamp is
inside the GPG payload, not just in the header) and keep a record at the
recipient end of timestamps of all executed commands. Ignore duplicates.

Alternatively a random character string could be used, but timestamps
might give other benefits (for eg, ignore messages older than 5
minutes).

Jonathan Oxer
Ph +61 3 9723 9399 / Fx +61 3 9723 4899
GPG key: http://www.ivt.com.au/gpg/jon.oxer.gpg


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 02:38:29PM -0500, Mark Mealman wrote:
> Gentoo on the other hand uses a build system that allows for rapid 
> deployment(KDE 3.1 final is in Gentoo and I don't think 3.1 has even 
> been officially announced yet), but it won't ever achieve Debian's 
> stability.

How can it have 3.1 final if 3.1 hasn't been announced?

We could have kernel 4.0, XFree86 8.4 etc too with a simple change to
the source. Then we'd be really c00l. How about it Branden and Herbert?

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

s/(non-free|contrib)/non-debian/g?

[Oliver Xymoron]

On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 05:48:39PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 02:57:25PM -0500, Phillip Hofmeister wrote:
> > If user confusion is the issue, why not just rename all non-free
> > packages to packagename-nf or packagename-nonfree or something of the
> > like?
> > 
> > Just a thought...don't toast me to hot with your flame throwers
> > please...
> 
> The asserted confusion isn't that people don't understand the licensing
> (though likely many of them don't), but that people don't really know
> what is part of the Debian system, and what isn't.

Then perhaps we could just s/(non-free|contrib)/non-debian/.  

It might be helpful to add a one-line note in the package descriptions
as to why things get put in non-us/non-free/contrib, ie uses patented
algorithm/violates DFSG clause 3/requires non-DFSG-free component.

-- 
 "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.." 

Another mass bug filing: get rid of xlib6g*

[Daniel Schepler]

As discussed previously, I'll be filing bugs against any source or
binary packages which still depend on the obsolete xlib6g* packages.
These will be normal severity for now, but will be raised to serious
severity (for source packages) or grave severity (for binary packages)
once these packages disappear.

The currently affected packages include:

Source packages: 3dchess, ax25-tools, bbdate, cheops, chimera2, clara,
clips, cpanel, crossfire-client, dfm, directory-administrator,
doxygen, ecawave, erlang, everybuddy, evolver, floatbg, geg,
gkrellm-mailwatch, gkrellm-radio, gkrellm-volume, gkrellmwireless,
gkrellweather, gmgaclock, gnome-ruby, gnome-system-tools, gretl,
gtkfontsel, icon, ion, ircii-pana, karpski, mp, nase-a60, nte,
octave-forge, openuniverse, openvrml, pcmcia-cs, pdl, postilion,
qbrew, rat, roxen, sabre, scrot, smurf, sourcenav, stardic,
svncviewer, sylpheed, sylpheed-claws, synaesthesia, vnc, vstream,
wmix, wmmon, wmmount, wmusic, workman, x2vnc, xarchon, xautolock,
xbreaky, xbuffy, xcal, xcin2.3, xeji, xflip, ximian-setup-tools,
xinput, xinv3d, xjig, xkbsel, xli, xlife, xmailbox, xmms-crossfade,
xmms-status-plugin, xmountains, xmpi, xpat2, xplanet, xscavenger,
xsok, xtet42, xzoom

Source packages specifying xlib6g-dev|xlibs-dev (in that order):
buici-clock, gmod, phaseshift, tclx8.2, tclx8.3, wdm, xlassie.  These
will have wishlist bugs filed asking them to reverse the order.

Binary packages (excluding those in source packages listed above):
axyftp-gtk, axyftp-lesstif, codebreaker, gfpoken, glbiff, glotski,
gnome-think, gnosamba, gtk-theme-switch, gwm, gwml, libvdkbuilder-dev,
libvdkbuilder2-dev, lightspeed, mountapp, multimon, oneliner, perspic,
quickplot, sclient, spacechart, vdkbuilder, vdkbuilder2, wmmatrix,
wmmoonclock, xaw3dg-dev, xcin2.3, xdigger, xdkcal, xgraph, xsol,
xtoolwait, xtranslate, xtv.

These lists don't include packages from contrib or non-free.

The proposed text for a source package bug:

(This is an automatically generated bug, based on the current contents
of the Sources file for the main section.)

This source package contains a build dependency on xlib6g-dev.  This
needs to be updated since the xlib6g* packages will disappear by the
time of the next release.

Be aware that, in addition to xlibs-dev, you may also need to specify
libxaw7-dev.  Also, if your source package uses imake, you will need
to specify xutils as well.

The proposed text for a binary package bug:

(This is an automatically generated bug, based on the current contents
of the Packages file for the main section.)

This package still depends on xlib6g; this needs to be updated since
the xlib6g* packages will disappear by the time of the next release.
(If this was pulled in by ${shlibs:Depends}, all you should need to do
to fix this bug is rebuild the package.  However, if your source
package is missing Build-Depends, you may need to add these for the
autobuilders to work.)
-- 
Daniel Schepler  "Please don't disillusion me.  I
[EMAIL PROTECTED]haven't had breakfast yet."
 -- Orson Scott Card

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > We'd need perhaps three different m68k varieties (two more than now),
> > one more Sparc, one more alpha, no more powerpc IIUC, no more arm, one
> > more mips, one more HPPA (or two?), no more ia64 or s390.  So that's
> > nine more varities of 386 to consider, and maybe six for the other
> > architectures.  So the total would be fifteen more copies of every
> > package, and it's 6GB per copy, so the total storage requirement is
> > about 90GB.
> 
> Bah, don't forget that you'd want multiple PPC (603e, 604e, G3, G4,
> 790...)  You could get away with 3 m68k (68020+MMU/030, 040, 060),
> although you might want more (040 w soft-FPU emulation for the LC040).

So I didn't UC for ppc.  I said three different 68k, which is really
right.  

> Of course, this would also entail separate CD images for each possible
> permutation.  ("What do you mean, I have to install these crizappy
> i386 packages and then upgrade; I want ones optimized for my six-way
> Athlon MP setup out of the box!  And don't give me Athlon XP packages,
> it's *just not the same*; the timings on this one instruction give a
> .0002% speedup, which dang-it I NEED!")

But the cost of CD images is even smaller, and there is no extra
bandwidth, since each person still only downloads the same.

> Not to mention build daemons for each possible permutation; some could
> conceivably be hosted on existing boxes, but they'd need extra RAM or
> disk space to keep up (and more people to keep an eye on them).

No, this isn't necessary.  GNU tools (which we use) make it really
easy to set up cross-compilation environments.  The only wrinkle is
being able to execute binaries midway through building, which is not
supposed to be needed for GNU packages, but others require that.  This
is no trouble, however, provided you build on a machine that can
execute all the instructions you are compiling to (that is, normally
just whatever is the highest end target).

> Oh, by the way, hurd-i386 and the *BSDs will want all of these
> optimizations too.  Better double your estimate :-)

And yet, it's still amazingly cheap.

The habits (and I have them too) of thinking that disk space is costly
are really old habits that it's time to break.

Re: Ask yourself some questions

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:19:13PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 11:54:43PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > > > Humour does not have to be at the expense of other
> > > >  people.
> > > 
> > > Where's the evidence? (Heinlein would disagree with you)
> > 
> > Of course, this is an argument *in favor* of Manoj's proposition.
> > Heinlein's track record is so poor, that anything he says is more
> > likely wrong that right.
> 
> Well, a likelihood is not a certainly.  I, for one, certainly agree with
> him that kissing girls is a goodness that beats the hell out of card
> games...

Not me!  I'd much rather be kissing Johnny Depp.  

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[John Goerzen]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 08:36:37PM +0100, Alexander Neumann wrote:
> John Goerzen wrote:
> >  GRUNT is a tool to let you execute commands remotely, offline.
> >  It will also let you copy files to a remote machine.
> 
> How did you solve the problem of re-sending such mails? Say, Joe Evil
> Cracker is able to catch a command mail containing "halt". Will he be
> able to shutdown my machine every time he want?

Each message has its "payload" and its header information (what command to
run, what file is being copied, etc.) GPG-signed.  (The two are combined
together to a single file, which is GPG signed as a whole.)

This header information includes, among other things:
 1. Date & time the file was prepared
 2. pid that created the file
 3. 2048 bits of random data

After verifying the signature on the data, the receiver does some sanity
checks.  One of the checks is doing an md5sum over the entire file
(remember, this includes both the headers and the payload).  If it
has seen the same md5sum in the last 60 days, it rejects the request.  If
the date of the request was more than 30 days ago, it rejects the request.

Therefore, the sender is able to reissue the "halt" command legitimately as
often as he/she wants, since the random bits & time will ensure different
md5sums on the recipient.  But replay attacks will be useless since the
recipient will have seen the request already, and will reject it.

-- John

Re: gpg error at developer.php after the fire

[Rene Engelhard]

HI Thorsten,

Thorsten Sauter wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> hmm. maybe we misunderstand us :)

Uups, yes. The second time I read your message I replied to I see.
Misread your sentence.

Sorry.

Regards,

Rene
-- 
 .''`.  Rene Engelhard -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 : :' : http://www.debian.org | http://people.debian.org/~rene/
 `. `'  [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GnuPG-Key ID: 248AEB73
   `-   Fingerprint: 41FA F208 28D4 7CA5 19BB  7AD9 F859 90B0 248A EB73


pgp0WgD6Xb3gw.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Ask yourself some questions

[Branden Robinson]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:07:23PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Well, a likelihood is not a certainly.  I, for one, certainly agree with
> > him that kissing girls is a goodness that beats the hell out of card
> > games...
> 
> Not me!  I'd much rather be kissing Johnny Depp.  

Johnny Depp isn't a girl?

OOOH!  BURN!  /me launches into a drum solo

That's just fine with me, Thomas; you take Johnny Depp and I'll take
the forgettable leftovers that are his co-stars, like Christina Ricci[1]
and Heather Graham.  Rowr.

[1] though the weird crash diet she went on over the past year or so was
a big, big mistake -- I thought the goal of diets was to, er, *lose* ten
pounds or so...not *weigh* ten pounds or so

Eventually, we'll get so far off-topic we'll come full-circle, I reckon.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|I'm sorry if the following sounds
Debian GNU/Linux   |combative and excessively personal,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |but that's my general style.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |-- Ian Jackson


pgpYMAjxTWH4D.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [mechanix@debian.org: Bug#169709: idesk: could use a better description]

[Colin Walters]

On Thu, 2002-11-21 at 15:56, Thorsten Sauter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> anyone can agree that this is a little bit more clearer?
> 
> 
> 
> Description: Display program shortcuts as icons on desktop
>  With idesk you can define shortcut's for several programs

The apostophe is an error.

>  and display these icons with a short description on the
>  desktop of any window manager.

I'd just drop the "of any window manager".

>  .
>  It can use png images as icon source (including transparent

That should be "including transparency", and I'd capitalize PNG.

>  support) and support antialised fonts to print the description.

This last bit is awkward, and has two typos; I would instead write:

...and supports using antialiased fonts for the description.
or maybe just
...and supports antialiased fonts.

Re: Another mass bug filing: get rid of xlib6g*

[Josip Rodin]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:03:06PM -0800, Daniel Schepler wrote:
> Binary packages (excluding those in source packages listed above):
> wmmoonclock, xaw3dg-dev, xcin2.3, xdigger, xdkcal, xgraph, xsol,
 
I'm not sure how you gather that data, but xsol binary package is built from
the xsol source package...

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Another mass bug filing: get rid of xlib6g*

[Daniel Schepler]

Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:03:06PM -0800, Daniel Schepler wrote:
> > Binary packages (excluding those in source packages listed above):
> > wmmoonclock, xaw3dg-dev, xcin2.3, xdigger, xdkcal, xgraph, xsol,
>  
> I'm not sure how you gather that data, but xsol binary package is built from
> the xsol source package...

Umm, xsol wasn't "listed above"...  "xsok" in the source package list
was not a misspelling.

BTW, let me register my preference that people don't Cc me on replies
to the list.
-- 
Daniel Schepler  "Please don't disillusion me.  I
[EMAIL PROTECTED]haven't had breakfast yet."
 -- Orson Scott Card

Re: Another mass bug filing: get rid of xlib6g*

[Branden Robinson]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:03:06PM -0800, Daniel Schepler wrote:
> As discussed previously, I'll be filing bugs against any source or
> binary packages which still depend on the obsolete xlib6g* packages.
> These will be normal severity for now, but will be raised to serious
> severity (for source packages) or grave severity (for binary packages)
> once these packages disappear.

And let it be known that it is *my* fickle finger on the trigger!

As from this moment - are you listening to me, Romana?  Because if
you're not listening, I can MAKE you listen.  Because I can do anything.
As from this moment there's no such thing as free will in the entire
universe.  There's only MY will because I POSSESS THE KEY TO TIME!

/me wanders off, laughing maniacally and regressing to childhood
Saturday nights watching PBS...

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|
Debian GNU/Linux   |  If encryption is outlawed, only
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |  outlaws will @goH7Ok=http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |


pgp71ylrw0rqo.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Should pure virtual dependencies be allowed?

[Daniel Schepler]

I'm forwarding this message to the list with the permission of the
author, since it relates to the recent thread about mass filing of
bugs regarding libxaw-dev.

--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 10:27:25PM -0800, Daniel Schepler wrote:
> Package: acfax
> Severity: normal
> 
> This package Build-Depends on libxaw-dev, which is wrong because it's
> a pure virtual package.  You need to specify a specific version of
> libxaw-dev to be used.

Why do I need to specify a specific version? Which part of policy says
so?

The same applies to normal depends. Some people believe that any
dependency on a virtual package must be expressed as "a real package |
the virtual package". However this is a workaround for a limitation of
apt-get (that it can't choose a default for a virtual package). The
correct solution is to fix the package management tools, not to kludge
around the problem. Debian does not have a history of kludging around
the problems so let's not start now.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

--- End Message ---


-- 
Daniel Schepler  "Please don't disillusion me.  I
[EMAIL PROTECTED]haven't had breakfast yet."
 -- Orson Scott Card

Re: Another mass bug filing: get rid of xlib6g*

[Josip Rodin]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:31:03PM -0800, Daniel Schepler wrote:
> > > Binary packages (excluding those in source packages listed above):
> > > wmmoonclock, xaw3dg-dev, xcin2.3, xdigger, xdkcal, xgraph, xsol,
> >  
> > I'm not sure how you gather that data, but xsol binary package is built from
> > the xsol source package...
> 
> Umm, xsol wasn't "listed above"...  "xsok" in the source package list
> was not a misspelling.

I know. I went back and reread the whole post. It's confusing. :)

(Anyhow, I knew about xsol's dependency for months if not years now. It'll
get fixed eventually, it's a tiny little package so it doesn't quite deserve
much attention.)

> BTW, let me register my preference that people don't Cc me on replies
> to the list.

It would help if you had your MUA insert a header to tell other people's
MUAs to do that, otherwise you depend on humans to do it.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 08:36:12AM +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 11:51:34AM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:06:40AM +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > > I don't believe that transfer will be CPU bound, but rather network and/or
> > > internal bus bandwidth limited.
> > 
> > It is not unusual for large scp jobs to be CPU bound when slow-to-modest
> > systems are connected to fast networks.
> 
> How fast are we talking about - GbE, or 100Mb?

100mbit.  Compare scp to FTP or netcat.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: Pathological case for Debian packages search page

[Daniel Burrows]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 03:31:52PM -0500, "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was 
heard to say:
> This package:
>   http://packages.debian.org/unstable/editors/the.html
> 
> never shows up when you search for "the" in
>   http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages
> 
> I assume it's because the search engine ignores common words like "the"
> :-) Also, because the BTS uses the search engine to link to the package
> pages, the package link on the BTS page for "the" will never turn up
> anything.
> 
> Now just think of all those poor people who are searching for "the" editor
> on Google... :-P

  Frankly, I think that's the the editor's fault for picking the, maybe the
most common word in English, as the name for the.  It makes sentences
about the like this one appear to be missing words when they talk about
the.

  Maybe the the package should be renamed to "the-editor" to remove
the confusion.  That won't help confusion about searching for the when
the the you mean is not the the the search engine thinks you mean.

  Daniel

-- 
/ Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\
|   "The problem with LaTeX is that your answers  |
|look so good, you think they *must* be right!"   |
| -- Thomas Banchoff  |
\- The Turtle Moves! -- http://www.lspace.org /

Re: Pathological case for Debian packages search page

[Josip Rodin]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 06:18:30PM -0500, Daniel Burrows wrote:
> > This package:
> > http://packages.debian.org/unstable/editors/the.html
> > 
> > never shows up when you search for "the" in
> > http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages
> > 
> > I assume it's because the search engine ignores common words like "the"
> > :-) Also, because the BTS uses the search engine to link to the package
> > pages, the package link on the BTS page for "the" will never turn up
> > anything.
> > 
> > Now just think of all those poor people who are searching for "the" editor
> > on Google... :-P
> 
>   Frankly, I think that's the the editor's fault for picking the, maybe the
> most common word in English, as the name for the.  It makes sentences
> about the like this one appear to be missing words when they talk about
> the.
> 
>   Maybe the the package should be renamed to "the-editor" to remove
> the confusion.  That won't help confusion about searching for the when
> the the you mean is not the the the search engine thinks you mean.

The package search engine is simply buggy here, it's not used for phrases so
it shouldn't exclude common words.

Cf. #102625.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Pathological case for Debian packages search page

[Adam Heath]

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, H. S. Teoh wrote:

> I assume it's because the search engine ignores common words like "the"
> :-) Also, because the BTS uses the search engine to link to the package
> pages, the package link on the BTS page for "the" will never turn up
> anything.

The BTS uses the search engine?  It does?  Since when.

(ie, the bts is not linked to the search engine, and is completely standalone)

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeu 21/11/2002 à 23:12, John Goerzen a écrit :

> After verifying the signature on the data, the receiver does some sanity
> checks.  One of the checks is doing an md5sum over the entire file
> (remember, this includes both the headers and the payload).  If it
> has seen the same md5sum in the last 60 days, it rejects the request.  If
> the date of the request was more than 30 days ago, it rejects the request

Re: skip to put some version in testing/sarge

[Atsuhito Kohda]

From: Julian Gilbey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: skip to put some version in testing/sarge
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:08:31 +

> > tetex-bin 1.0.7+20021025-1 and -2 are a bit buggy so
> > I strongly want them not to be in testing/sarge.
> > 
> > And I would like to see only 1.0.7+20021025-3 and later
> > version(s) of tetex-bin in testing.
> 
> In this case, testing is at 1.0.7+20011202-8, and will remain that way
> at least until all of the unstable architectures are in sync.  So if
> we just wait now, the 1.0.7+20021025-3 version will eventually make it
> into testing; anything else has already been superceded.

Thanks for your clarification.  I will wait for a while.

Best regards,   2002/11/22

-- 
 Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian
 Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Department of Math., Tokushima Univ.

Re: VNC plans.

[Oliver Xymoron]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 01:49:33PM +0100, Ola Lundqvist wrote:
> Hello
> 
> Some people might have notived that I have made some
> (dramatic?) changes to the vnc packages. The reason is
> that the upstream development have started again. :)
> 
> The problem is that I used to have the tightvnc patches
> applied but due to the upstreams is so different, that is
> not possible anymore. The new upstream has nice new features
> and tightvnc has other nice features. They may coexist in
> the future but that is far away.
> 
> So this is what I intend to do to solve these issues:
> 
> 0) Start using alternatives for vnc.
> 
> 0.1) Link svncviewer staically with libvncauth instead
>of dynamically.
> 
> 1) Package tightvnc as:
>tightvncserver, provides vncserver
>tight[x?]vncclient, provides vncviewer
>tightvnc-doc
> 
>The hard part is to test that they can coexist.
> 
> 2) Change the vnc package to realvnc
>realvncserver, provides vncserver
>realvncviewer, provides vncviewer
>vnc-common (I have to check what's in there).

Perhaps you should make the virtual package rfbserver and rfbviewer
and ditch the 'real' bit. There's already an 'rfb' package in Debian
that you should probably coordinate with. 

-- 
 "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.." 

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Colin Watson]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 11:45:55AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Craig Dickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > True, but Thomas Bushness was pretty clearly advocating supplying
> > optimized binaries from the repository. Perhaps you missed that
> > implication.
> 
> There is no such person who has posted on this thread, or any other
> related that I can find.

Read the whole thread before replying ...

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Pathological case for Debian packages search page

[Colin Watson]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 05:43:43PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> > I assume it's because the search engine ignores common words like "the"
> > :-) Also, because the BTS uses the search engine to link to the package
> > pages, the package link on the BTS page for "the" will never turn up
> > anything.
> 
> The BTS uses the search engine?  It does?  Since when.

It links to http://packages.debian.org/$foo, which invokes the search
engine in question.

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Pathological case for Debian packages search page

[Adam Heath]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Colin Watson wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 05:43:43PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> > > I assume it's because the search engine ignores common words like "the"
> > > :-) Also, because the BTS uses the search engine to link to the package
> > > pages, the package link on the BTS page for "the" will never turn up
> > > anything.
> >
> > The BTS uses the search engine?  It does?  Since when.
>
> It links to http://packages.debian.org/$foo, which invokes the search
> engine in question.

Well, packages.d.o/$foo should not be a search is all.  bugs.d.o/$foo isn't a
search, it just does an exact match.

My assumption was that looking up a package exactly would do just that, and
not search.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Michael Stone]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:07:00PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
The habits (and I have them too) of thinking that disk space is costly
are really old habits that it's time to break.
No, it's not. Low end disks are cheap. High end disks still aren't.
Bandwidth still isn't.  Especially when you're spending donated
resources rather than your own. 

More importantly, I don't believe we can have a reasonable test coverage
if we start exponentially increasing the number of package permutations.
Gentoo can ignore that because they don't worry about testing or
integration, but we cannot.
Mike Stone

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Craig Sanders]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:15:12PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > i remember a year or so ago when i complained about this worthless
> > practice i said that it would end up consuming hundreds of megabytes
> > - i was told that was ridiculous, it would never happen.
> 
> Megabytes!  Horrors.  You counted up to 96 MB in your computation,

what computation?  i provided an example directory listing taken
directly out of my debian mirror.

the approx 310MB came directly from du:

falls:/home/ftp/pub/mirrors/debian/pool/main/k# du -sck kernel-image-*i386
14360   kernel-image-2.2.20-i386
3572kernel-image-2.2.20-reiserfs-i386
7544kernel-image-2.2.20-udma100-ext3-i386
14124   kernel-image-2.2.21-i386
14128   kernel-image-2.2.22-i386
85560   kernel-image-2.4.16-i386
76528   kernel-image-2.4.18-i386
96712   kernel-image-2.4.19-i386
312528  total

"*i386" missed one, should have been "*i386*".  add another ~20MB for:

19268   kernel-image-2.4.18-i386bf


these figures don't include the alsa-modules or linux-wlan-ng kernel
module packages that have to be compiled for each specific kernel (add
another approx 17MB for those at the moment).


> which I will assume to be correct.

how generous of you.  you could have quibbled about every line of the
directory listing i provided, but you restrained yourself - for that
small mercy, i will be forever in your debt.

> Current cost of hard disk is something between $1.00 and $1.50 per
> gigabyte.

it's not just the cost of disk space, it's the cost of bandwidth too -
and recurring bandwidth expenses cost a LOT more than disks (once-off
capital expenditure)


> Branden, could we afford to buy a couple 110 GB disks to hold this
> increase?

can debian afford to buy the same for every mirror too?  or pay the
bandwidth costs of about 100MB per debian release of each kernel
version?  at an average of 4 or 5 debian releases per kernel-image
package, that's about 400 or 500MB per kernel version.  

bandwidth isn't free, nor is it universally cheap.  some countries are
still paying up to $0.20 per MB for downloads, or even more.

work out the cost for your location.  even in the US where bandwidth is
relatively cheap, it still adds up to real money.

every mirror has this expense, just to provide allegedly "optimised"
kernels for people who are too lazy to compile their own, who probably
wouldn't even notice the "optimisation" anyway.


craig 

-- 
craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Fabricati Diem, PVNC.
 -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Miles Bader]

Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >Well, see, now Manoj would say that none at all were funny.  What
> >statistical conclusions am I to derive from that?
> 
> That you're not as funny as you think you are?

Still, he is often very funny (and on target), and to be honest, I think
he's quite right -- his joking around _does_ rather lighten the mood
(something that can't be said about Manoj's prim-lipped harrumphing).

-Miles
-- 
Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it
has to be us.  -- Jerry Garcia

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:01:12PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

>> Current cost of hard disk is something between $1.00 and $1.50 per
>> gigabyte.

> it's not just the cost of disk space, it's the cost of bandwidth too -
> and recurring bandwidth expenses cost a LOT more than disks (once-off
> capital expenditure)

Are you referring to the increase in bandwidth requirements for the
mirroring itself?  I wouldn't expect an increase in the number of
available kernels to lead to an increase in the number of kernel
packages users need to have installed.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


pgpXaXO5pfzuq.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: debian-installer

[Tollef Fog Heen]

* Michael Cardenas 

| What we really need is a debian installer web page that has a link to
| cvs, the current status, the mailing list, and the current todo list
| front and center. I'm planning on adding this to my p.d.o site, but I
| haven't had the time yet, as I've been working on udebs for gtkfb.  

http://raw.no/d-i/getting_started.html has some.  Additions are
welcome.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  

Re: Why are new package versions depending on libc6 in unstable?

[Tollef Fog Heen]

* Michael Stone 

| On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 10:26:37AM -0800, Mike Fedyk wrote:
| > Yes, please use experemental more than it is now.
| 
| Please never use experimental. I much prefer private apt repositories
| with discrete units (e.g., an X repository or gnome repository) over
| experimental, which is a random collection of software, some of which
| might really toast your system.

Nothing is installed from experimental because of dependencies.. you
have to be explicit about each and every package.  (Unless you have
overridden that using apt's preference, in which case you should know
that you are out on a limb).  AIUI, anyhow.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  

Re: debian-installer

[Tollef Fog Heen]

* Tim Dijkstra 

| I've got a new old box to play with. Naturally I'll have to install
| debian on it (was planning to install sarge). I remember some people on
| the list asking for debian-installer testers. I would be happy to be
| one, but where can I find it? 

Mostly-fresh images can be found either in joeyh's[0] or my[1]
repository, as linked to from http://raw.no/d-i/getting_started.html

[0] http://people.debian.org/~joeyh/debian-installer/daily/images/
[1] http://people.debian.org/~tfheen/d-i/images/daily/

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  

Re: Why are new package versions depending on libc6 in unstable?

[Mike Fedyk]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 02:29:48AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> * Michael Stone 
> 
> | On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 10:26:37AM -0800, Mike Fedyk wrote:
> | > Yes, please use experemental more than it is now.
> | 
> | Please never use experimental. I much prefer private apt repositories
> | with discrete units (e.g., an X repository or gnome repository) over
> | experimental, which is a random collection of software, some of which
> | might really toast your system.
> 
> Nothing is installed from experimental because of dependencies.. you
> have to be explicit about each and every package.  (Unless you have
> overridden that using apt's preference, in which case you should know
> that you are out on a limb).  AIUI, anyhow.

Nice, (btw, this is documented in man apt_preferences) but how do you know
there is a new version available in experemental from apt-cache?

Anyway, with this, experemental looks even better. :)

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:07:00PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> >The habits (and I have them too) of thinking that disk space is costly
> >are really old habits that it's time to break.
> 
> No, it's not. Low end disks are cheap. High end disks still aren't.

Disks are still $1 per gigabyte.  IDE disks are more than sufficient
for this task, aren't they?  Other disks run--omigosh--up to $2 per
gigabyte.  

> Bandwidth still isn't.  Especially when you're spending donated
> resources rather than your own. 

Mirrors are quite free to decide not to download anything but the i386
packages.  Surely doing this job right would involve making sure that
this is possible and works well.  So adding extra to our stock
wouldn't increase *anything* except for those who choose to carry
more. 

Ordinary users download what they actually need, and wouldn't download
any more than they do now.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > which I will assume to be correct.
> 
> how generous of you.  you could have quibbled about every line of the
> directory listing i provided, but you restrained yourself - for that
> small mercy, i will be forever in your debt.

I wasn't being generous, just assuming you counted correctly.  No
matter, if it's way more than that, it's still cheap.

> > Branden, could we afford to buy a couple 110 GB disks to hold this
> > increase?
> 
> can debian afford to buy the same for every mirror too?  or pay the
> bandwidth costs of about 100MB per debian release of each kernel
> version?  at an average of 4 or 5 debian releases per kernel-image
> package, that's about 400 or 500MB per kernel version.  

A mirror that only wants to carry the i386 packages can continue to
only carry the i386 packages.  Nothing we do could compel them to
carry more.  

Re: Proposal - non-free software removal

[Atsuhito Kohda]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOKUBI Takatsugu)
Subject: Re: Proposal - non-free software removal
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:25:01 JST

> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> >> >> xpdf-japanese
> >> >> cmap-adobe-japan1
> >> >> cmap-adobe-japan2
> >> >> cmap-adobe-korea1
> >> >> cmap-adobe-gb1
> >> >> cmap-adobe-cns1
> >> 
> >> > My question is: how did Japenese users make it with Debian prior to the
> >> > introduction of these packages?  Couldn't they continue using whatever
> >> > methods worked then?

Prior to the cmap-adobe-japan1,2 Japanese users used to
use another mechanism i.e. VFlib to display Japanese fonts,
at least in ghostscript.

Perhaps at that time, xpdf didn't support Japanese so
Japanese users could use only ghostscript to display
Japanese PDF files (and from time to time Japanize patch
lost PDF support). 

But VFlib cann't support Korean nor Chinese, that is, it is
Japanese specific.  In this respect, cmap-adobe-* might
be much better than VFlib.

> >> Perhaps they simply used acroread from non-free? Or perhaps the
> >> importance of pdf has increased and they could do without it then
> >> and cannot now.

This is also right.  The importance of PDF increases much.

> xpdf-japanese is required to display Japanese PDF with xpdf. It is
> also need to convert PDF to plain text with pdftotext.
> 
> I'm not familiar about cmap-*.

In fact, cmap-adobe-* and xpdf-japanese/korean/chinese-*
are same kind of files so I believe they could be collected 
to one package (per japanese/korean/chinese) to be used both 
xpdf and ghostscript.

And Hamish Moffatt is now working to try to do so, I guess.

(Perhaps dvipdfm-cjk-cmap is also the same kind of package
as far as I understand)

Best regards,   2002/11/22

-- 
 Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian
 Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Department of Math., Tokushima Univ.

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Scott Dier]

> It also makes it 5 times as hard to build a modules package for our
> stock kernels. And uses an equivilant of extra space there of course.

If you punch out a kernel module package its not so bad if all the
headers files are installed.  I wrote up a e1000 kernel package before
it showed up here as an ITP by someone else and it worked great.

-- 
Scott Dier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> KC0OBS http://www.ringworld.org/

"Many voters assume that their political leaders are hard at work on
these issues. They are not."
  _Editorial: Time to choose / Who will deliver on transportation?_
 http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/3367890.html

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 05:48:47PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:07:00PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > >The habits (and I have them too) of thinking that disk space is costly
> > >are really old habits that it's time to break.

> > No, it's not. Low end disks are cheap. High end disks still aren't.

> Disks are still $1 per gigabyte.  IDE disks are more than sufficient
> for this task, aren't they?  Other disks run--omigosh--up to $2 per
> gigabyte.  

There's "how much does disk space cost?", and then there's "we have x
disk space available currently, and no budget for expansion right now;
we only use y GB of it; how much can we mirror with the free disk space
as a service to the community?"

I don't imagine everyone is going to be able to buy additional disks for
their mirror servers just to accomodate Debian.  I'm pretty sure *no*
one's going to add a $5, 5GB HD to their mirror server if that's how
much Debian pushes them over their current capacity.  There are likely
to be some trade-offs if Debian takes on packages that mirror operators
consider "useless bloat".  Then again, we seem to have a large number of
mirror operators well-snowed as it is right now, so maybe a few more GB
won't make a difference. ;)

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


pgp2k1q3RuCGD.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Craig Sanders]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 07:27:06PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:01:12PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
> 
> >> Current cost of hard disk is something between $1.00 and $1.50 per
> >> gigabyte.
> 
> > it's not just the cost of disk space, it's the cost of bandwidth too
> > - and recurring bandwidth expenses cost a LOT more than disks
> > (once-off capital expenditure)
> 
> Are you referring to the increase in bandwidth requirements for the
> mirroring itself?  

yep.

i wouldn't mind so much if all the extra i386 kernels were in a separate
subdirectory under pool/main/k/ - then there would be no need to update
regexp exclusion patterns every time there's a new i386 compatible
architecture or a new compile-time option.

it would still be wasteful, but a lot easier to manage.

> I wouldn't expect an increase in the number of available kernels to
> lead to an increase in the number of kernel packages users need to
> have installed.

right, no significant increase.  those who upgrade every day know that
it costs them, and it only affects them if they use the debian-supplied
kernels rather than compile their own.  at worst, it's probably less
than 10MB per week.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Fabricati Diem, PVNC.
 -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch

Re: Ask yourself some questions

[Brian Nelson]

Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:07:23PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
>> > Well, a likelihood is not a certainly.  I, for one, certainly agree with
>> > him that kissing girls is a goodness that beats the hell out of card
>> > games...
>> 
>> Not me!  I'd much rather be kissing Johnny Depp.  
>
> Johnny Depp isn't a girl?
>
> OOOH!  BURN!  /me launches into a drum solo
>
> That's just fine with me, Thomas; you take Johnny Depp and I'll take
> the forgettable leftovers that are his co-stars, like Christina Ricci[1]
> and Heather Graham.  Rowr.
>
> [1] though the weird crash diet she went on over the past year or so was
> a big, big mistake -- I thought the goal of diets was to, er, *lose* ten
> pounds or so...not *weigh* ten pounds or so

I thought that was the weight limit required to be on Ally McBeal...

However, I can't say I have much attraction to any girl whose forehead
rivals the size of some small nations.

> Eventually, we'll get so far off-topic we'll come full-circle, I reckon.

With a wide radius, apparently.

-- 
Curse my natural showmanship!


pgpMtJ5Pbs7az.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Branden" == Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Branden> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:18:20PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
 >> This is, what, the fourth or fifth? post from Manoj in reply to one of your
 >> non-free-debate-related joke. One or two were funny, sure, but I think we've
 >> all lost the humour bit after the Nth instance, and then Manoj overreacted
 >> to the whole slew of them.

 Branden> Well, see, now Manoj would say that none at all were funny.  What
 Branden> statistical conclusions am I to derive from that?

Notice that is did not respond to the first few, even though
 you were ridiculing positions I took, However, there seemed to be no
 end in sight, and there was no response to my earlier non
 overreacting messages. 

 Branden> It's been said that self-censorship is the worst form of
 Branden> censorship.  I guess that isn't the case when we're asking
 Branden> other people to practice it.

Is politeness self censorship, then? (that is a pretty damning
 admission, and one I would have hesitated in levelling against you). 

manoj
-- 
 You will see the light at the end of the tunnel; unfortunately, it
 will be the light of an oncoming freight train.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Matt" == Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Matt> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:48:51AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> >>"Emile" == Emile van Bergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 >> 
 Emile> Leaving me wondering how the collection of selfish genes, known as the
 Emile> individual Manoj, was driven to make such a compassionate statement.
 >> 
 >> Perhaps because I may be one of the victims? Perhaps not in
 >> this incident, but other like it? and if I can change social norms of
 >> conduct so that I would nto be hurt in the future?
 >> 
 >> This is too easy.

 Matt> To rely on gracious behaviour from other organisms is a losing 
evolutionary
 Matt> strategy, and to attempt to avoid bruised feelings by inducing change in
 Matt> social norms is a doomed proposition.

Where did I ever say that I depended on politeness from
 others? Or that I expected a change? The Bhagavata Geeta says that
 our actions (karma) should be according to what is right (dharama),
 and let the fruits and consequences of the karma fall where they
 will. 

 Matt> Adapt.

Quite.

manoj
-- 
 "I have a friend who just got back from the Soviet Union, and told me
 the people there are hungry for information about the West.  He was
 asked about many things, but I will give you two examples that are
 very revealing about life in the Soviet Union.  The first question he
 was asked was if we had exploding television sets.  You see, they
 have a problem with the picture tubes on color television sets, and
 many are exploding.  They assumed we must be having problems with
 them too.  The other question he was asked often was why the CIA had
 killed Samantha Smith, the little girl who visited the Soviet Union a
 few years ago; their propaganda is very effective. Victor Belenko,
 MiG-25 fighter pilot who defected in 1976 "Defense Electronics", Vol
 20, No. 6, pg. 100
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Miles" == Miles Bader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Miles> Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 >> >Well, see, now Manoj would say that none at all were funny.  What
 >> >statistical conclusions am I to derive from that?
 >> 
 >> That you're not as funny as you think you are?

 Miles> Still, he is often very funny (and on target), and to be honest, I think
 Miles> he's quite right -- his joking around _does_ rather lighten the mood
 Miles> (something that can't be said about Manoj's prim-lipped harrumphing).


Oooh. We have a masochist amidst us. Being ridiculed is funny?
 Strange, but who am I to comment on the strange predilections of our
 peers? Whatever turns you on. (does meet the asocial geek streotype,
 I guess).

However, I shall respect your wishes, and I shall hereby
 attempt to provide you with entertainement, no matter how perverse it
 appears to be. 

 prim-lipped harrumphing, eh? So cry havoc, and let slip ze hounds.
 
manoj
 wondering if he still retains a modicum of his erstwhile ability to
 ridicule the ridiculous
-- 
 You think Oedipus had a problem -- Adam was Eve's mother.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> There's "how much does disk space cost?", and then there's "we have x
> disk space available currently, and no budget for expansion right now;
> we only use y GB of it; how much can we mirror with the free disk space
> as a service to the community?"

This is why I asked Branden if we could afford a couple more big disks
for Debian.  He said, IIRC, it would take 1% of our money.

> I don't imagine everyone is going to be able to buy additional disks for
> their mirror servers just to accomodate Debian.  

In which case, they should just continue to merror the i386 packages
they have now.  I would certainly agree that if we add such packages,
we should do it in a way that makes it easy to mirror only some.

> I'm pretty sure *no* one's going to add a $5, 5GB HD to their mirror
> server if that's how much Debian pushes them over their current
> capacity.  

I'm sure of it too, since you can't even buy a 5GB disk anymore.

> There are likely to be some trade-offs if Debian takes on
> packages that mirror operators consider "useless bloat".  Then
> again, we seem to have a large number of mirror operators
> well-snowed as it is right now, so maybe a few more GB won't make a
> difference. ;)

Right; if that happens, then those mirrors won't carry those
additional architectures.  No harm done.

Re: Ask yourself some questions

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Branden" == Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Branden> Well, a likelihood is not a certainly.  I, for one,
 Branden> certainly agree with him that kissing girls is a goodness
 Branden> that beats the hell out of card games...

Being happily married, kissing girl(s) plural does not enter
 the realm of goodness by any stretch of the imagination.

A good game of bridge, on the other hand ...

manoj
-- 
 "There are some good people in it, but the orchestra as a whole is
 equivalent to a gang bent on destruction." John Cage, composer
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Ask yourself some questions

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Andrew" == Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Andrew> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 11:54:43PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> Humour does not have to be at the expense of other
 >> people.

 Andrew> Where's the evidence? (Heinlein would disagree with you)

ok. Even though evidence is hard to produce for something as
 subjective as humour, here are a few points:
  a) Heinlein would disagree with me
  b) The four instances of things that made me laugh out loud today
 did not have explicit victims (generic stereotypes can be the
 butt of jokes quite easily, and then there is siuational humour) 
  c) Heinlein would disagree with me
  d) look at my sig, my rand sig generator is being ever so helpful.

manoj
-- 
 "Money is the root of all money." the moving finger
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Ask yourself some questions

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>   Being happily married, kissing girl(s) plural does not enter
>  the realm of goodness by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
>   A good game of bridge, on the other hand ...

So it's agreed!  A game of bridge, me, Branden, Manoj, and some
unnamed fourth.  Hey, I know who should be the fourth!  Johnny Depp!
Assuming, that is, that he will kiss me after we beat the hell out of
the Branden/Manoj partnership.

(And *that* will be easy, because Johnny and I will be making googly
eyes at each other, but Manoj and Branden will be fighting with each
other.) :)

Thomas

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Jim Lynch]

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:23:17 +0200
Mikko Moilanen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 02:47:16PM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> > 
> > Are you suggesting that you would prefer the latest software, without the
> > integration that Debian provides?  If so, you can get this easily by
> > building from source.  Debian's value is entirely in making the packages
> > play nice together.
> 
> They play very nicely together in Gentoo also. In Debian things work better,
> but not much better. And I am not talking about stability now. For me, Gentoo 
> was more stable, even their 'development' version. 

Please provide support for this statement... stability is not subjective;
are you saying debian crashes more often?

-Jim (no need to CC: me; I'm subscribed)

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 08:37:19PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> >>"Matt" == Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>  On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:48:51AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>  >> and if I can change social norms of conduct so that I would nto be
>  >> hurt in the future?

  ^^
 
>  Matt> To rely on gracious behaviour from other organisms is a losing 
> evolutionary
>  Matt> strategy, and to attempt to avoid bruised feelings by inducing change 
> in
>  Matt> social norms is a doomed proposition.
> 
>   Where did I ever say that I depended on politeness from
>  others? Or that I expected a change?

Up there.

> The Bhagavata Geeta says that our actions (karma) should be according to
> what is right (dharama), and let the fruits and consequences of the karma
> fall where they will. 

That may be, but I don't see what that has to do with the sentiment that you
have expressed.   _You_ said "Perhaps[...]if I can change social norms of
conduct so that I would nto[sic] be hurt in the future?" as justification
for your earlier statements.

This certainly sounds to me like your goal was to change others' conduct so
that you would not be hurt in the future.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: Test package apt repositories, and "Release" files.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Karl" == Karl M Hegbloom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Karl> Just a reminder...  Will folks who place test packages in "apt"
 Karl> repositories PLEASE put "Release" files in there along with "Packages"
 Karl> and "Sources", so that we can use the man apt_preferences functionality
 Karl> to "Pin" those test package repositories?

A real Release file has md5sums of the Packages files, and has
 a detached signature -- and I can't seem to find a straight forward
 means of creating one.

manoj
-- 
 Do your otters do the shimmy? Do they like to shake their tails? Do
 your wombats sleep in tophats? Is your garden full of snails?
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Test package apt repositories, and "Release" files.

[Anthony Towns]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 09:35:51PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >>"Karl" == Karl M Hegbloom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>  Karl> Just a reminder...  Will folks who place test packages in "apt"
>  Karl> repositories PLEASE put "Release" files in there along with "Packages"
>  Karl> and "Sources", so that we can use the man apt_preferences functionality
>  Karl> to "Pin" those test package repositories?
>   A real Release file has md5sums of the Packages files, and has
>  a detached signature -- and I can't seem to find a straight forward
>  means of creating one.

There are two different sorts of Release files -- binary-*/Release which
is what Karl was talking about, and dists/*/Release{,.gpg} which is what
you're talking about. The former can be written by hand, and doesn't change
(except at release time), or can be generated from the latter. The latter
needs to be updated every time any Packages file changes, obviously.

It should be fairly straightforward to create a Release{,.gpg} set
yourself, the files aren't particularly complicated. Ripping out code from
"ziyi" in the katie suite might help.

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 ``If you don't do it now, you'll be one year older when you do.''

Re: Why are new package versions depending on libc6 in unstable?

[Daniel Burrows]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 05:40:39PM -0800, Mike Fedyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was 
heard to say:
> Nice, (btw, this is documented in man apt_preferences) but how do you know
> there is a new version available in experemental from apt-cache?

  apt-cache show or showpkg will show this..

  Daniel

-- 
/ Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\
| "The spork is strong with him..." -- Fluble |
\ Be like the kid in the movie!  Play chess! -- http://www.uschess.org ---/

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Matt" == Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Matt> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 08:37:19PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> >>"Matt" == Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 >> 
 >> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:48:51AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> >> and if I can change social norms of conduct so that I would nto be
 >> >> hurt in the future?

 Matt>   ^^
 
 Matt> To rely on gracious behaviour from other organisms is a losing 
evolutionary
 Matt> strategy, and to attempt to avoid bruised feelings by inducing change in
 Matt> social norms is a doomed proposition.
 >> 
 >> Where did I ever say that I depended on politeness from
 >> others? Or that I expected a change?

 Matt> Up there.

You should really learn how to read. Having a goal does not
 imply one depends on succeeding. The journey is often worth it even
 if you do not depend on having attaining the goal.

 >> The Bhagavata Geeta says that our actions (karma) should be according to
 >> what is right (dharama), and let the fruits and consequences of the karma
 >> fall where they will. 

 Matt> That may be, but I don't see what that has to do with the sentiment that 
you
 Matt> have expressed.   _You_ said "Perhaps[...]if I can change social norms of
 Matt> conduct so that I would nto[sic] be hurt in the future?" as justification
 Matt> for your earlier statements.

Yes, it would be nice if we learned to not ridicule people on
 this mailing list. Am I dependent on functioning, waiting with bated
 breath for it to happen? hell no.

Eradicating poverty and world peace are worthy goals too. Are
 we all dependent on that, and shall wither away if that does not
 happen? 

 Matt> This certainly sounds to me like your goal was to change others' conduct 
so
 Matt> that you would not be hurt in the future.

Goal. Goal. Use a dictionary. Having a goal does not imply a
 dependence. 

manoj

-- 
 The man who runs may fight again. Menander
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Sound card problem

[chanka perera]

Hi,
The sound modules was not there and I tried to compile the kernel my
Menuconfig or xconfig didn't work because of the error,

Make: *** No rules to make target '/Rules.make' Stop.

Then I compile it fome the console mood now the .config file is there
but when I typed 

#make deb 
make: *** No rules to make target 'deb' Stop

Why is that is it somting wrong with the make ?

Chanka perera



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dhammika Pathirana
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 11:13 AM
To: chanka perera
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Sound card problem


chanka perera wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi,
> In my Debian woody box sound card is not working I'm having creative 
> vibra 128 card #sndconfig says Sound module not found you don't seems 
> to be running a kernel with modular sound enable (soundcore.o was not
> found) and it's supported with Linux 2.2 but It's impossible because
> it's woody ;)
> 
> In KDE it gives an error at startup
> Error while initializing sound drivers
> Device /dev/dsp can't be open (permision denied) even in root I
> changed #chmod 777 /dev/dsp after that it says (can't open no such
> device)
> 
> In /dev there are 3 dsp files it might be the problem (its not 
> selected the correct dsp file) but what the config file for sound 
> cards?
> 
> Please tell me how to config my sound card
> 
> 


First less /proc/modules and see whether the sound modules are loaded. 
In your case I think it's emu10k.. something. soundcore should also be 
loaded. If modules are not loaded check whether they have been compiled.

ls /lib/modules/kernel_version/kernel/drivers/sound/

If the modules are there just insmod module_name, make sure that module 
dependencies are not broken. Meaning that modules are installed 
according to their dependencies. U'd find the dependencies in 
/lib/modules/kernel_version/modules.dep

Now if u've come this far then cat some_file > /dev/dsp, if everything 
is fine then u'd hear some sound.

Else u'd have to recompile the kernel with the sound support, it's not 
really difficult, but make sure that you don't make install the kernel.
First try to get the sound driver built into the kernel, this would make

it much easier to debug, once it's working u can build the driver as a 
module. I assume that u'r famillier with recompiling the kernel, and if 
u'r not just google, u'd find lots of howtos on it.

If you didn't get it working pls reply with the dmesg (kernel bootup 
messages)

dhammika









___
members mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
https://secure.lklug.pdn.ac.lk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/members

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[Brian May]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 04:12:42PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> After verifying the signature on the data, the receiver does some sanity
> checks.  One of the checks is doing an md5sum over the entire file
> (remember, this includes both the headers and the payload).  If it
> has seen the same md5sum in the last 60 days, it rejects the request.  If
> the date of the request was more than 30 days ago, it rejects the request.

30 days seems like an awfully long time...

I would have though rejecting any requests, say an hour old would
be better...

So, if you did issue an halt command, the worst an attacker could do
would be to delay execution by one hour, not 30 days.
--
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 09:43:03PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>   You should really learn how to read. Having a goal does not
>  imply one depends on succeeding. The journey is often worth it even
>  if you do not depend on having attaining the goal.

I read quite well, thank you.  Such personal attacks would not seem to fit
with your lofty philosophy of elevating social norms.

To respond in kind, you should really learn how to construct sentences.

If you did not ever expect to reap any benefit from your "journey", then I
suppose it would be a truly altruistic act, and you a being of rare
character.  But if I may quote you again:

 >> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:48:51AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> >> and if I can change social norms of conduct so that I would nto be
 >> >> hurt in the future?

...it certainly sounds as if you expect personal benefit.

>  Matt> That may be, but I don't see what that has to do with the sentiment 
> that you
>  Matt> have expressed.   _You_ said "Perhaps[...]if I can change social norms 
> of
>  Matt> conduct so that I would nto[sic] be hurt in the future?" as 
> justification
>  Matt> for your earlier statements.
> 
>   Yes, it would be nice if we learned to not ridicule people on
>  this mailing list. Am I dependent on functioning, waiting with bated
>  breath for it to happen? hell no.

It would be nice if you did not needlessly provoke me, as part of your
apparent personal conflict with Branden Robinson, simply because I sent a
followup to one of his messages.  However, I will survive it, and I do not
expect this to change.

In judgement of those who engage in ridicule on this mailing list, I do not
believe that you have ground to stand on.

>   Eradicating poverty and world peace are worthy goals too. Are
>  we all dependent on that, and shall wither away if that does not
>  happen? 

Appeal to popularity, overgeneralization, and hyperbole all in one sentence,
as well as misstating my position.  This is a notable feat of non-argument.

>  Matt> This certainly sounds to me like your goal was to change others' 
> conduct so
>  Matt> that you would not be hurt in the future.
> 
>   Goal. Goal. Use a dictionary. Having a goal does not imply a
>  dependence. 

If your interest is in goals that you will never achieve, then you are
directly on track.  You are a stunning example of all of the behaviours that
you would sorta kinda like to see change, but wouldn't mind if they never
did, and you will never gain any ground by emulating the object of your
criticism.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[Brian May]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:55:07AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> What if the attacker can intercept the messages ? He can prevent a
> message from being sent, and keep it for another day. Seeing your
> computer doesn't halt, you resend the message, and the attacker has 30
> days to use what he has stolen.
> 
> A secure way to handle this would be a challenge/response
> authentification, or a system similar to SSH's one-time passwords.

No, I think it is an inherent problem with using E-Mail for such things.

As long as E-Mail is used, the possibility exists that the E-Mail will
get delayed.

If the E-Mail gets delayed it is not possible to cancel it, it has
already been sent.

An E-Mail could go missing due to bad mail configuration, could get
delayed due to a link going down, or deliberately (for example).

When the remote hosts does receive the E-Mail, it has no way of knowing
if the submitter still wants it to be executed or not.

Maybe it might be possible to send a "cancel" or "revoke" message to the
server, but presumably if initial E-Mail got delayed, the cancel/revoke
message would be delayed too.
--
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Sound card problem

[Pankaj Jangid]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 10:19:27AM +0600, chanka perera wrote:
> The sound modules was not there and I tried to compile the kernel my
> Menuconfig or xconfig didn't work because of the error,
> 
> Make: *** No rules to make target '/Rules.make' Stop.
> 

Don't know what are u trying to make. To run menuconfig u just type

make menuconfig

on the prompt. Make sure u are in the kernel top level directory.

> Then I compile it fome the console mood now the .config file is there
> but when I typed 
> 
> #make deb 
> make: *** No rules to make target 'deb' Stop
> 
Seems u want to create a deb. Then u should install "kernel-package".
And after doing "make menuconfig" do "make-kpkg kernel_image".

regards

-- 
Pankaj Jangid
Education Technology Unit, NCST


pgp1F6V9pEFiQ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Jim Lynch]

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:41:19 -0500
Mark Mealman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 11:02:40AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> 
> >> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 08:50:32PM +1100, Andrew Lau wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>> > The question I want to pose today is "Are we losing users to
> >>> > Gentoo?"
> >>
> >>
> >> Hell yes, and it's great. The number of morons using Debian has
> >> noticably decreased since gentoo came on the scene; they now have
> >> something that will give them the stupid things they asked for, so
> >> they stop asking us for them.

Andrew, we who have been on #debian have long suspected but not logged
(until now, that is) you engaging in exactly this kind of intellectual
bigotry... This is certainly something we can (and will) now point at.

> I've been using Debian for about 6 years, however I guess I'm still one of 
> these "morons".

[...]

> And then there's the political BS that's been with the Debian scene
> since, well, about forever. I really don't miss  that or the occasional
> elitest attitude that crops up. Last I checked no one on the Gentoo
> forums called anyone who used Debian a moron. So I suppose in that
> respect it really is a superior distribution.

Andrew Suffield and others who engage in poor behavior such as calling
people morons and coming out and stating that debian should be some kind
of "smart people's club": Mark is correct, you should NOT engage in this
behavior.

> -Mark

Mark,

Gentoo is relatively young. Give them time, and they'll scrap amongst
themselves with the best of em. Debian is political because we have a
lot of political units (aka PEOPLE) who are acting as developers. I 
don't think Gentoo has as many developers as we do.

You can partially blame Andrew Suffield's presence as a developer on
me: I advocated him.

-Jim

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Matt" == Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Matt> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 09:43:03PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> You should really learn how to read. Having a goal does not
 >> imply one depends on succeeding. The journey is often worth it even
 >> if you do not depend on having attaining the goal.

 Matt> I read quite well, thank you.  Such personal attacks would not seem to 
fit
 Matt> with your lofty philosophy of elevating social norms.

Then the only explanation is that you do not ken the
 distinction between goals and dependencies. Is that not worse? 

 Matt> To respond in kind, you should really learn how to construct sentences.

Umm. elucidate.

 Matt> If you did not ever expect to reap any benefit from your
 Matt> "journey", then I suppose it would be a truly altruistic act,
 Matt> and you a being of rare character.  But if I may quote you
 Matt> again:

Read what I said what the Geeta said. And how you deduce it is
 altruistic is beyond me, and, beyond logic. Letting the thought of
 the reaping benefits distract you from following your credo does not
 imply selfishness. It implies potential ineptitude.

 >>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 12:48:51AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >>> >> and if I can change social norms of conduct so that I would nto be
 >>> >> hurt in the future?

 Matt> ...it certainly sounds as if you expect personal benefit.

Of course the desired goal is personal
 benefit. Jesus. Depending on it is never implied.  If you still do
 not see how they are separate, well, I think we are done. My
 commiserations also go with you.

 Matt> That may be, but I don't see what that has to do with the sentiment that 
you
 Matt> have expressed.   _You_ said "Perhaps[...]if I can change social norms of
 Matt> conduct so that I would nto[sic] be hurt in the future?" as justification
 Matt> for your earlier statements.
 >> 
 >> Yes, it would be nice if we learned to not ridicule people on
 >> this mailing list. Am I dependent on functioning, waiting with bated
 >> breath for it to happen? hell no.

 Matt> It would be nice if you did not needlessly provoke me, as part
 Matt> of your apparent personal conflict with Branden Robinson,
 Matt> simply because I sent a followup to one of his messages.
 Matt> However, I will survive it, and I do not expect this to change.

I did not provike you,except to correct a basic error in logic
 about a posting of mine. Goal != dependency, if I may reiterate.

 Matt> In judgement of those who engage in ridicule on this mailing
 Matt> list, I do not believe that you have ground to stand on.

Heck, I adapt to the tactics people use. (Except I continue to
 believe in logic)

 >> Eradicating poverty and world peace are worthy goals too. Are
 >> we all dependent on that, and shall wither away if that does not
 >> happen? 

 Matt> Appeal to popularity, overgeneralization, and hyperbole all in
 Matt> one sentence, as well as misstating my position.  This is a
 Matt> notable feat of non-argument.

You can't seem to distinguish between a goal and a dependency,
 and yes, I did resort to extreme example in an attempt to deomstrate
 the distinction. Since it has been lost on you, I admit to the
 inefficacy of my message.

 Matt> This certainly sounds to me like your goal was to change others' conduct 
so
 Matt> that you would not be hurt in the future.
 >> 
 >> Goal. Goal. Use a dictionary. Having a goal does not imply a
 >> dependence. 

 Matt> If your interest is in goals that you will never achieve, then

Not never achive. May never achieve. There is a distinction,
 though it may be too fine for you to follow, given this thread.

 Matt> you are directly on track.  You are a stunning example of all
 Matt> of the behaviours that you would sorta kinda like to see
 Matt> change, but wouldn't mind if they never did, and you will never
 Matt> gain any ground by emulating the object of your criticism.

Ah well. C'est la vie.

manoj
 not into cheek turning
-- 
 The bank called to tell me that I'm overdrawn, Some freaks are
 burning crosses out on my front lawn, And I *can't*believe* it, all
 the Cheetos are gone, It's just ONE OF THOSE DAYS! Weird Al Yankovic,
 "One of Those Days"
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?

[Don Armstrong]

Gah! Why'd he have to bring up biology?

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> To rely on gracious behaviour from other organisms is a losing
> evolutionary strategy,

Relying soly on gracious behaviour from other organisms yes[1], but it
doesn't necessarily mean that there is no selection for gracious
behavior in other organisms.

Altruism does have it's place in selection. [Although the altruism is
necessarily selfish...]

I'll stop with the OT now... ;-)


Don Armstrong

1: Well, possibly. I'm not willing to take a position one way or the
other... [and normally at this point, I'd be asking for references
from you to back your position up.]

-- 
I leave the show floor, but not before a pack of caffeinated Jolt gum
is thrust at me by a hyperactive girl screaming, "Chew more! Do more!"
The American will to consume more and produce more personified in a
stick of gum. I grab it. -- Chad Dickerson

http://www.donarmstrong.com
http://www.anylevel.com
http://rzlab.ucr.edu


pgpdsh1ysZRoI.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[Joey Hess]

John Goerzen wrote:
> After verifying the signature on the data, the receiver does some sanity
> checks.  One of the checks is doing an md5sum over the entire file
> (remember, this includes both the headers and the payload).  If it
> has seen the same md5sum in the last 60 days, it rejects the request.  If
> the date of the request was more than 30 days ago, it rejects the request.

Hold on, if you're md5summing the headers, what is to stop an attacker
from modifying the subject, and using an intercepted, gpg-signed body to
repeat the command?

-- 
see shy jo


pgpOU8IXaGsID.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[Joey Hess]

This is interesting. I've been planning to add play-by-mail support to
my mooix moo, but have held off because I didn't want to tackle doing it
securely. But if I can just use grunt and it turns out to be secure..
that'd be sweet. I hope that grunt lets you just compose commands with a
standard mailer, without having to run some command on your system to
set up the random block John mentions. For my (very specific) purposes,
it would be nice if it could be used without gpg, from any system that
can send and receive mail.

Brian May wrote:
> No, I think it is an inherent problem with using E-Mail for such things.
> 
> As long as E-Mail is used, the possibility exists that the E-Mail will
> get delayed.
> 
> If the E-Mail gets delayed it is not possible to cancel it, it has
> already been sent.
> 
> An E-Mail could go missing due to bad mail configuration, could get
> delayed due to a link going down, or deliberately (for example).

This could me especially amusing if the first, delayed email was:

  cd /tmp

And the second was:

  rm -rf *

(Dumb contrived example, but you get the idea.)

You could possibly do stuff with seqence numbers though to prevent this.
If every command you sent was a reply to a message from the grunt
server (the response to the last command), the server could generate a
new number each time. Something like this:

  From: me
  Subject: hi, I want a grunt session


  From: grunt server
  Subject: your session started

  Be sure to reply to this message to include this data --
  Session-id: 240943
  Sequence-number: 1


  From: me
  Subject: my first command

  cd /tmp
  
  > Be sure to reply to this message to include this data --
  > Session-id: 240943
  > Sequence-number: 1

  From: grunt server
  Subject: re: my first command

  > cd /tmp
  pwd: /tmp

  Be sure to reply to this message to include this data --
  Session-id: 240943
  Sequence-number: 2
  

  From: me
  Subject: my second command

  rm -rf *
  
  > Session-id: 240943
  > Sequence-number: 2


If the cd command is intercepted or delayed, then I'll notice that the
server is not responding back. I could then try to resend it, superceding
my old command (which the server would discard if it got it, since its
sequence number for this session would increase). Unless I'm terminally
stupid, I cannot send the second, dependant rm command until the first
command gets run. I'd have to forge the sequence number (2). The server
could even protect from this by using randomly increasing sequence
numbers, at-la-tcp.

I could also try to cancel the whole session, with another mail. If the
mail got through, that would prevent the interceptor from feeding it to
the server at a later date. However, they could just intercept the
cancel mail too. That's about the time I think I'd reach for out of band
communication.

-- 
see shy jo


pgpX615Hu6g6v.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bug#170069: ITP: grunt -- Secure remote execution via UUCP or e-mail using GPG

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Joey Hess wrote:

> > After verifying the signature on the data, the receiver does some sanity
> > checks.  One of the checks is doing an md5sum over the entire file
> > (remember, this includes both the headers and the payload).  If it
> > has seen the same md5sum in the last 60 days, it rejects the request.  If
> > the date of the request was more than 30 days ago, it rejects the request.
> 
> Hold on, if you're md5summing the headers, what is to stop an attacker
> from modifying the subject, and using an intercepted, gpg-signed body to
> repeat the command?

PGP signatures have a signature ID and a date that are ment to be used to
prevent against replay attacks. I forget the exact details but there is a
gpg mode that prints it out. The db.debian.org gateways all make use of
it. 

Jason