[Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Stefan Behnel]

Hi,

quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.

Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?

1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates back 
to early 2008


2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of which 
were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5 was 
released five years ago


3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at all 
most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on 2.3 anyway


4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would have 
been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features


There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3 and 
dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first is the 
more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we could 
continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested Cython is 
on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated code is 2.3 
compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just let the C code 
support fade out silently until someone actually notices.


Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running Cython 
on it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack of 64 bit 
support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which is also going 
out of security-fix maintenance now.


Comments?

Stefan
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Vitja Makarov]

2011/7/27 Stefan Behnel :
> Hi,
>
> quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.
>
> Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?
>
> 1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates back
> to early 2008
>
> 2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of which
> were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5 was released
> five years ago
>
> 3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at all
> most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on 2.3
> anyway
>
> 4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would have
> been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features
>
> There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3 and
> dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first is the
> more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we could
> continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested Cython is
> on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated code is 2.3
> compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just let the C code
> support fade out silently until someone actually notices.
>
> Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running Cython on
> it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack of 64 bit
> support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which is also going
> out of security-fix maintenance now.
>
> Comments?
>

+1

I think we should completely drop 2.3 and 2.4 support. I hope nobody
use it with recent Cython versions.

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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[mark florisson]

On 27 July 2011 18:46, Vitja Makarov  wrote:
> 2011/7/27 Stefan Behnel :
>> Hi,
>>
>> quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.
>>
>> Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?
>>
>> 1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates back
>> to early 2008
>>
>> 2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of which
>> were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5 was released
>> five years ago
>>
>> 3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at all
>> most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on 2.3
>> anyway
>>
>> 4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would have
>> been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features
>>
>> There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3 and
>> dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first is the
>> more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we could
>> continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested Cython is
>> on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated code is 2.3
>> compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just let the C code
>> support fade out silently until someone actually notices.
>>
>> Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running Cython on
>> it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack of 64 bit
>> support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which is also going
>> out of security-fix maintenance now.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>
> +1
>
> I think we should completely drop 2.3 and 2.4 support. I hope nobody
> use it with recent Cython versions.
>
> --
> vitja.
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+1 from me too, especially 2.3 is a royal pain in the ass. I want my
any, all, decorators and I want my str.partition and even str.rsplit.
I also can't run 2.3 on my system as it won't compile, so it always
makes my hudson red. I'm also pretty ok with 2.4 if anyone wants to
keep it, but would certainly not mind dropping it.
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Dan Stromberg]

We probably all want to use newer Python features.

I believe CentOS just recently released an OS that includes a recent Python
that wouldn't be hit by this; it'll probably be a while before CentOS and
RHEL people don't desire 2.4 support.

But in my own use, I target 2.5 and up - if a system only has 2.4 or 2.3, I
compile a newer interpreter.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Stefan Behnel  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.
>
> Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?
>
> 1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates back
> to early 2008
>
> 2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of which
> were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5 was released
> five years ago
>
> 3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at all
> most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on 2.3
> anyway
>
> 4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would have
> been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features
>
> There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3 and
> dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first is the
> more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we could
> continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested Cython is
> on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated code is 2.3
> compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just let the C code
> support fade out silently until someone actually notices.
>
> Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running Cython
> on it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack of 64 bit
> support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which is also going
> out of security-fix maintenance now.
>
> Comments?
>
> Stefan
> __**_
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> cython-devel@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/cython-devel
>
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Robert Bradshaw]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:51 AM, mark florisson
 wrote:
> On 27 July 2011 18:46, Vitja Makarov  wrote:
>> 2011/7/27 Stefan Behnel :
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.
>>>
>>> Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?
>>>
>>> 1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates back
>>> to early 2008
>>>
>>> 2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of which
>>> were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5 was released
>>> five years ago
>>>
>>> 3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at all
>>> most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on 2.3
>>> anyway
>>>
>>> 4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would have
>>> been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features
>>>
>>> There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3 and
>>> dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first is the
>>> more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we could
>>> continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested Cython is
>>> on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated code is 2.3
>>> compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just let the C code
>>> support fade out silently until someone actually notices.
>>>
>>> Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running Cython on
>>> it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack of 64 bit
>>> support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which is also going
>>> out of security-fix maintenance now.
>>>
>>> Comments?
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> I think we should completely drop 2.3 and 2.4 support. I hope nobody
>> use it with recent Cython versions.

I'm OK with dropping 2.3, but lets pose the question on cython-users
as well first. If so, we'd declare 0.15 as the last release
"supporting" 2.3. Dropping 2.4 seems to have less advantages and more
disadvantages, but is worth inquiring about as well.

- Robert
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Dag Sverre Seljebotn]

On 07/27/2011 06:32 PM, Stefan Behnel wrote:

Hi,

quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.

Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?

1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates
back to early 2008

2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of
which were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5
was released five years ago

3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at
all most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on
2.3 anyway

4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would
have been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features

There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3
and dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first
is the more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we
could continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested
Cython is on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated
code is 2.3 compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just
let the C code support fade out silently until someone actually notices.

Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running
Cython on it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack
of 64 bit support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which
is also going out of security-fix maintenance now.

Comments?


An important aspect is that if you're really stuck on an old Python, you 
can always use an old version of Cython.


I'm +1 at dropping 2.3 support. Let's not have it "fade out silently", I 
don't like hand waving much -- let's make sure to put it prominently in 
the release notes that it is not supported, drop the Jenkins builds for 
it, and not think twice about generating C that doesn't work under 2.3. 
In fact, how about an #ifdef explicitly generating an error under 2.3.


I'm less sure about 2.4. The RHEL in use at our institute actually have 
Python 2.4 in /usr/bin -- granted, they're just about to upgrade. I'd 
say keep 2.4 for Cython 0.15[.x], put a deprecation warning in the 
release notes, and then remove support in Cython 0.16. That way, there's 
at least one Cython version out with all the new stuff for Python 2.4 
that people can keep using.


Dag Sverre
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Dag Sverre Seljebotn]

On 07/27/2011 08:11 PM, Robert Bradshaw wrote:

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:51 AM, mark florisson
  wrote:

On 27 July 2011 18:46, Vitja Makarov  wrote:

2011/7/27 Stefan Behnel:

Hi,

quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.

Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?

1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates back
to early 2008

2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of which
were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5 was released
five years ago

3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at all
most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on 2.3
anyway

4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would have
been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features

There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3 and
dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first is the
more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we could
continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested Cython is
on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated code is 2.3
compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just let the C code
support fade out silently until someone actually notices.

Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running Cython on
it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack of 64 bit
support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which is also going
out of security-fix maintenance now.

Comments?



+1

I think we should completely drop 2.3 and 2.4 support. I hope nobody
use it with recent Cython versions.


I'm OK with dropping 2.3, but lets pose the question on cython-users
as well first. If so, we'd declare 0.15 as the last release
"supporting" 2.3. Dropping 2.4 seems to have less advantages and more
disadvantages, but is worth inquiring about as well.


Stefan mentioned 2.3 being "all red" -- would you support 2.3 for Cython 
0.15 even if it's a lot of work? If it's not much work I agree, I just 
don't think it's a valuable use of our time if things need fixing. It's 
not like 0.14.x will become unavailable.


Dag Sverre
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Robert Bradshaw]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn
 wrote:
> On 07/27/2011 08:11 PM, Robert Bradshaw wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:51 AM, mark florisson
>>   wrote:
>>>
>>> On 27 July 2011 18:46, Vitja Makarov  wrote:

 2011/7/27 Stefan Behnel:
>
> Hi,
>
> quick question before raising a poll on the users mailing list.
>
> Would anyone mind dropping support for CPython 2.3?
>
> 1) it's long out of maintenance, even the last security release dates
> back
> to early 2008
>
> 2) there have been seven main releases of CPython since then, four of
> which
> were in the 2.x line, starting with 2.4 in late 2004 - even 2.5 was
> released
> five years ago
>
> 3) it produces weird and annoying errors in Jenkins, or rather none at
> all
> most of the time, since the test suite does not run the doctests on 2.3
> anyway
>
> 4) the new code that was written by Vitja and Mark would be (or would
> have
> been) cleaner with decorators and other 'recent' Python features
>
> There are two sides to this: dropping support for running Cython in 2.3
> and
> dropping support for compiling the generated code in 2.3. The first is
> the
> more interesting one. It's not strictly required to do both, we could
> continue to support it at the C level, but given how badly tested
> Cython is
> on that version anyway, I think stating that the generated code is 2.3
> compatible is already hand waving today. So we may even just let the C
> code
> support fade out silently until someone actually notices.
>
> Actually, even 2.4 is a candidate for dropping support for running
> Cython on
> it. The last release dates back to December 2008, and its lack of 64
> bit
> support makes it severly less attractive than even 2.5, which is also
> going
> out of security-fix maintenance now.
>
> Comments?
>

 +1

 I think we should completely drop 2.3 and 2.4 support. I hope nobody
 use it with recent Cython versions.
>>
>> I'm OK with dropping 2.3, but lets pose the question on cython-users
>> as well first. If so, we'd declare 0.15 as the last release
>> "supporting" 2.3. Dropping 2.4 seems to have less advantages and more
>> disadvantages, but is worth inquiring about as well.
>
> Stefan mentioned 2.3 being "all red" -- would you support 2.3 for Cython
> 0.15 even if it's a lot of work? If it's not much work I agree, I just don't
> think it's a valuable use of our time if things need fixing.

I haven't looked at how much fixing it needs, but it's a pretty good
track record: 
https://sage.math.washington.edu:8091/hudson/job/cython-devel-tests-py23-c/

> It's not like 0.14.x will become unavailable.

Yes, that is a good point, though if it's (really) easy, I'd rather
say "this is the last release supporting 2.3" rather than "oh, btw, we
dropped support for 2.3."

I also think we should have a big fat #error rather than letting 2.3
support just fade away (or worse, silently produce bad/incorrect
code).

- Robert
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Re: [Cython] Cython 0.15 release

[최원준]

Can I make cython file from python and C using generators?


2011년 7월 25일 오후 3:17, 최원준 님의 말:

> ok
>
>
> 2011/7/25 Stefan Behnel 
>
>> 최원준, 25.07.2011 08:03:
>>
>>> 2011/7/25 Vitja Makarov
>>>
 2011/7/25 최원준:

  Can I test the generators?
>

 Sure, generators support is in master already:

 https://github.com/cython/**cython 

>>>
>>> I don't know where it is.. sorry
>>>
>>
>> It's actually not that hard. You go to that URL, click on the big fat
>> "Downloads" button, and then select the archive format you prefer. Next, you
>> unpack it on your machine, change into the extracted directory and run
>> "python setup.py install".
>>
>> Besides, this is a question for the cython-users mailing list, not the
>> core developers mailing list.
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>> __**_
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>> cython-devel@python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/cython-devel
>>
>
>
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Stefan Behnel]

Robert Bradshaw, 27.07.2011 20:28:

Yes, that is a good point, though if it's (really) easy, I'd rather
say "this is the last release supporting 2.3" rather than "oh, btw, we
dropped support for 2.3."


I wouldn't mind either way. Let's see what the users poll gives.



I also think we should have a big fat #error rather than letting 2.3
support just fade away (or worse, silently produce bad/incorrect
code).


With "fading out" I just meant that a) we don't even know right now if the 
C code we generate really works in Python 2.3 and b) we could just leave it 
that way and add a note to the release notes that it's no longer actively 
supported but on a "I feel lucky" basis.


But I agree that it's better to let the C compilation fail loudly, so that 
users know what the problem is.


Stefan
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Re: [Cython] Cython 0.15 release

[Stefan Behnel]

최원준, 28.07.2011 08:23:

Can I make cython file from python and C using generators?


Please ask your question on the cython-users mailing list, not on this 
list, which is the core developers mailing list. And please try to be 
specific about what you want to achieve. It's not clear to me at all from 
the question above what you are trying to do.


Stefan
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Re: [Cython] Should we drop support for CPython 2.3? (and maybe even 2.4?)

[Vitja Makarov]

2011/7/28 Stefan Behnel :
> Robert Bradshaw, 27.07.2011 20:28:
>>
>> Yes, that is a good point, though if it's (really) easy, I'd rather
>> say "this is the last release supporting 2.3" rather than "oh, btw, we
>> dropped support for 2.3."
>
> I wouldn't mind either way. Let's see what the users poll gives.
>
>
>> I also think we should have a big fat #error rather than letting 2.3
>> support just fade away (or worse, silently produce bad/incorrect
>> code).
>
> With "fading out" I just meant that a) we don't even know right now if the C
> code we generate really works in Python 2.3 and b) we could just leave it
> that way and add a note to the release notes that it's no longer actively
> supported but on a "I feel lucky" basis.
>
> But I agree that it's better to let the C compilation fail loudly, so that
> users know what the problem is.
>

That could be a warning not an error.

It's fun: with cython you can use decorators, generators and more with py2.3,
may be it's better to drop support after 0.15?

I hope it would be easy to fix this error:
https://sage.math.washington.edu:8091/hudson/job/cython-devel-tests-py23-c/871/console

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Re: [Cython] Cython 0.15 release

[최원준]

because of no answer on the cython users..
anyone knows about this?



2011/7/28 Stefan Behnel 

> 최원준, 28.07.2011 08:23:
>
>  Can I make cython file from python and C using generators?
>>
>
> Please ask your question on the cython-users mailing list, not on this
> list, which is the core developers mailing list. And please try to be
> specific about what you want to achieve. It's not clear to me at all from
> the question above what you are trying to do.
>
>
> Stefan
> __**_
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>
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Re: [Cython] Cython 0.15 release

[Dag Sverre Seljebotn]

The reason you do not get answers is because people do not understand your 
question. Please describe in detail what you want to do (on the users list).

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

"최원준"  wrote:

because of no answer on the cython users.. 
anyone knows about this?



2011/7/28 Stefan Behnel 

최원준, 28.07.2011 08:23:


Can I make cython file from python and C using generators?


Please ask your question on the cython-users mailing list, not on this list, 
which is the core developers mailing list. And please try to be specific about 
what you want to achieve. It's not clear to me at all from the question above 
what you are trying to do.



Stefan
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