?
Thanks
Mike
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Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
This m
Hi,
I'm hoping someone can help. My web hosting provider offers Mailman as
their list software of choice, and as a Python neophyte, I think it's a good
choice. :-)
Problem is this: They recently migrated to another server. Right before
this migration, I made a "complete" b
Hi!
I really like Mailman. Thank you guys.
But there is a question:
Why where is no Cgi-UI option for to allow
an admin to download all list members as text file
suitable for mass subscription?
Or there IS such Web-interface option and I've just missed it?
Best wishes
Maxim Yaku
Can anyone explain to me why emails to a list administrator contain the
footer as an attachment? Regular list posts do not do so. Is there a
wayt to change that behavior?
Thanks!
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http
re-appear. No email is sent
confirming the subscription if approved.
Mandrake 8.1 is the base system
Postfix is the MTA and specified in the Mailman config
I've tried Python 2.1.1, 2.1.2 and 2.2. I sometimes see errors
complaning about a different linked library with bsddb3 (ie fro
re-appear. No email is sent
confirming the subscription if approved.
Mandrake 8.1 is the base system
Postfix is the MTA and specified in the Mailman config
I've tried Python 2.1.1, 2.1.2 and 2.2. I sometimes see errors
complaning about a different linked library with bsddb3 (ie fro
have headers, footers,
etc)
Any hints as to where to look to make these changes will be greatly
appreciated!
Valerie
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Mailman FAQ:
searching purposes, is there a way to implement this with mailman? If
mailman isn't quite the right tool for this can anyone recommend any
other?
Thanks,
Dan Mahoney
--
"Your future hasn't been written yet; no one's has. So make it a good
one!"
-"Doc" Emmet L
initial or someting. Just something to help
identify whose email is whose??
Thanks.
LB
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Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Hello,
Believe it or not, I am having trouble building mailman. I have done it
in the past with a previous version on a different machine. I made a
detailed log describing my individual steps.
FreeBSD 4.6
Postfix 1.1.11
Mailman 2.0.13
Step 1: Unpacked tar in /root/mailman-2.0.13/
Step 2
e-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
--CEABEFE00.1031088453/frybread.stuorg.iastate.edu--
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Mailman FA
Let's just pretend I didn't ask this. I did a major Homer Simpson-ish DOH
and forgot to do the aliases. Took me all afternoon to figure it out. I
guess I got so carried away and went into a wild-eyed daze once I went
into the list creation phase.
I love mailman...
On Tue, 3 Sep 200
On Thu, 5 Sep 2002, Jules Siegel wrote:
> How do I configure a Mailman list so that it's one way -- that is I
> can send mail but subscribers can't reply to the list? Will just
> setting the reply to function to specific sender work? Or is there
> another more secure way t
I have seen a similar situation on my installation of Mailman. The
key is the repetition of the one message in your qrunner log. An
easy way to fix this is to mv
/home/mailman/qfiles/001b6903fc7ad5bdcdfa930711200d5a1306e7af*
aside (into another directory, that is) (or just rm if you don
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Angel Gabriel wrote:
> I have about 3k emaill addresses, that I want to put on a mailman
> list. These have been collated from a web form, and are stored in a
> txt file, one after the other. I attempted to add them via the web
> interface, but that seemed to mes
sed "s/'//g"; done
That's two TABs after $i between the quotes on the second line ...
but your favorite whitespace formatting will work. Likewise, adjust
the sed commands to your liking.
To make this even handier, I have a shell script called list_owners that
has a
in the FAQ:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.011.htp
Other helpful FAQ links:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=index
- Andrew
-----
ttp://www.stllinux.org/meeting_notes/1998/0521/verp.html
http://www.stllinux.org/meeting_notes/1998/0521/bounces.html
(Apparently, VERP is also "Visitor Experience and Resource Protection",
a strategy used by the National Park Service. But I don't think Mailman
will have anything to do with
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Tom Ryan wrote:
> The latest betas of mailman can allow the admin to block unsubscribe
> requests. However, you can't block the users setting "nomail", etc.
>
> Seems we're almost there, just not quite :)
Please note however, Nathan, the
y
rejected? Is it posted but being held for approval? What do your
MTA and Mailman logs show about how far the message made it? With
some more detail (and an actual problem statement :-) someone on the
list may be able to
On Sun, 22 Sep 2002, Maria Garcia Suarez wrote:
> Now I would like to uninstall Mailman 2.0.13 to
> install it again using Debian's apt-get (Mailman's
> version 2.0.11).
>
> Can someone please tell me how to uninstall Mailman?
It depends on how much you want to remove.
Van -
The key here is to note that a Mailman archive is more than just
the mbox file. There are many other supporting files, including
pre-gen'd HTML files and a whole set of database files. The trick
to editing the mbox file for a list archive and having the edits
recognized is to do ju
many aspects of both my personal and professional
life.
In fact, I would greatly like to join your ranks; alas! I do not have
the time to give; I wouldn't even have the time to keep Mailman up to
date with the latest beta version, which Barry has pointed out in a
recent posting is an import
> I think this is the problem, I saw in the logs something about
> QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME expiring, **wonders how to fix this**
Look in /home/mailman/Mailman/Defaults.py and search for QRUNNER.
You will find the QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME parameter, plus several
related parameters
bytes mean
something to you).
- Andrew
--------
Mailman Administrator - http://www.tux.org/mailman/listinfo/
On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, G. Armour Van Horn wrote:
> Okay, now we're half way home. The messages that I pasted in are all
&
On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Palo Segec wrote:
> I have problem with pipermail archive of the mailman 2.0.13
> distribution, I'd done installation as was at INSTALL file, but I
> can't access to the pipermail archive. Answer from web server is
>
> The requested URL /pipermail/li
On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, David A Gilbert wrote:
> I need to change a bunch of existing lists that are currently doing 2
> below (archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving) to 1
> below (archive to mbox to use an external archiving mechanism only).
> # ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX
>
On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, J. Alec West wrote:
> I'm considering switching to a webhost that allows Mailman use and had
> one simple question. Can Mailman be set up to be used as a newsletter
> ... that is sent to a number of subscribers in such a way that
> subscribers cann
On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, drumguru wrote:
> Hi! My new hosting service, clevelandhosting.com, has recommended
> Mailman. I have need of a simple "one way" newletter email program to
> broadcast announcements to my customer email list, with the only
> recipient options
it picks up where it left off. I look in the
> mail queue, and I can't see any messages, but I look in the logs, and
> it's trying addresses every hour or so. It's making me wonder if,
> mailman is the culprit. Because I can't see what mailman is about to
> do, I ca
I am inclined to agree with Jon (that what you really want is for your
list members to do the encrypting), for an additional reason: if its
important that the messages be encrypted on their way -out-, its important
that they be encrypted on their way -in-. Don't ask Mailman to do
something
a versions as well) come with a
utility called (appropriately enough) "add_members". Its a
command-line interface for doing -exactly- what you wish to do.
Look in bin in your Mailman installation directory.
(And while you are
e.
- Andrew
--------
Mailman Administrator - http://www.tux.org/mailman/listinfo/
------
Mailman-Users mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-u
aces, bracket,
angle-brackets, "|", control characters ... lots of stuff. (Those
who doubt it, please see below for a small sample.) Some of these
are even legal in e-mail addresses, but "alphanumerics, undersco
On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Roger Chrisman wrote:
> (Mailman doc snip, from /usr/share/doc/packages/mailman/INSTALL):
>
> --with-cgi-gid=
> Specify an alternative group for running scripts via the
> CGI wrapper. can be a list of one or
> more integer gro
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Genchev, Sergei wrote:
> We would really like to identify invalid E-mail
>
> Any suggestions?
Check Mailman's "bounce" log (e.g., ~/mailman/logs/bounce). It should
contain log lines about addresses for which Mailman detected a problem,
even if M
"? This is in the admin interface, under "General Options"
(i.e., the first page), the 6th item down from the top.
- Andrew
----
Mailman Administrator - http://www.tux.org/mailman/listinfo/
---
On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Raquel Rice wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:10:25 -0700
> "Christopher Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Is there a way to control how many times Mailman tries to
> > connect to send the message before setting them to 'nomai
On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Zoheb Sait wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I installed mailman on my server, with the all the right flags and stuff,
> however mailman is not sending out any emails, no confirmation emails and
> not sending mail to any subscribed users.
> ...
> There is no error
stem, even a "neighbor".
Take a careful look at things; you claim that bounce message comes
from sendmail, but the NDR you provided is from a Postfix MTA. Did
you mean "the MTA" instead of "sendmail"? If not, the environment in
which you are operating may be quite differ
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Patrick Hsieh wrote:
> I am using mailman 2.0.13 on Debian testing.
> If I can't do this in 2.0.x, is there anyway to find out the
> new-subscriber welcome message file? I hope I can change the
> content of it. Thank you.
Okay, sounds like you are talking a
On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Jonathan Chum wrote:
> I've sent a HTML document successfully to the list and I'm curious
> what will happen to those who cannot read HTML documents properly? Is
> there an option in Mailman for subscribers to subscribe to a text only
> version, or wil
me I have had a Mailman queue backlog is when there was a
bad message in the queue. I moved it aside, and the rest cleared out
in good time. The qrunner log was very clear about the problem; one
look there, and you may have your answer right
On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Matt Goebel wrote:
> Running Mailman 2.0.13 on Tru64 4.0G with sendmail 8.11.6 and
> have hopefully a simple question.
>
> I've had a couple of list owners complain that when their users
> (mostly on yahoo.com or hotmail.com) are disable because of
&g
qrunner is showing all kinds of lock files all of a sudden. The server
had some "issues" today and had been rebooted a couple of times - then the
lock files appeared. Do I need to restart something with Mailman? It
looks like messages aren't coming thru. I'm usi
in the RFC about it.
See RFC 2822, section 3.4 and 3.4.1, and then section 3.2.4 for a
definition of "dot-atom", etc.
Or, see RFC 822, section 6.1, and then section 3.3 for a definition
of "word", etc.
- Andrew
----
On 14 Oct 2002, Jon Carnes wrote:
> As someone else mentioned, the Beta has this feature.
>
> Also, if you have sysadmin rights to the server running Mailman,
> then you can setup one of the work-arounds. There are a couple of
> work-arounds that allow you to discard the me
t 10:18, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I manage a mailing list site with mailman, and I recently had the
> > following problem:
> >
> > Lets say I have a list called [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 3 members:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] m3
I personally would reserve this feature for one-way (newsletter)
lists and the like.
The other replies to your post should prove very helpful in
implementing the automatic discarding that you seek.
- Andrew
--------
Mailman Administrat
fety."
Benjamin Franklin
..
------
Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Hello, I setup mailman 2.0.2 and had it running for a long while. Last night for no
obvious reason, it started giving this error when trying to get into admin: "We're
sorry, we hit a bug! Mailman experienced a very low level failure and could not even
generate a useful traceba
I have a second email account that I use for outgoing, and it wants to wait for
moderation (and I don't want to :). So sorry if this gets double posted.
I checked all the processes and the only ones given to mailman is
"/usr/bin/python -S /home/mailman/cron/qrunner", so I
Alright, I tracked down the problem and found out it had nothing to do with mailman.
But in case someone has the same problem I'll post it (even though it's really really
embarassing). Okay, I should I have been able to figure it out, it happened for no
obvious reason, was just sit
Hi,
Is there a real FAQ somewhere (not the one on the official site), it's almost useless?
Also, how one would get rid of the long list of url (List-Help etc.) ans addresses
sent with all posts (you know :
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Gzipping archives
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROT
Hi,
How one would get rid of the long list of urls (List-Help etc.) ans addresses sent
with all posts (you know :
List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
List-Subscribe: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>
Hi,
Is there a real FAQ somewhere (not the one on the official site), it's almost useless?
Also, how one would get rid of the long list of url (List-Help etc.) ans addresses
sent with all posts (you know :
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Gzipping archives
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROT
de your password with the request. You should also be able to
unsubscribe using the listinfo web page.
Jon Carnes
But nothing happens with the default list settings, the users are still on the list,
nay ideas ?
Regards,
------
Mailman-Users mail
Installed 3 lists, but not yet in use, I get following entries each minute
in /var/log/cron:
Dec 2 19:30:00 service CROND[1435]: (mailman) CMD (/usr/bin/python -S
/var/mailman/cron/gate_news)
Dec 2 19:31:00 service CROND[1437]: (mailman) CMD (/usr/bin/python -S
/var/mailman/cron/qrunner
uch better:
Subject: [sublist] [umbrellalist] testmail3
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you
Martin
------
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Hi, I have installed a partially working version of Mailman 2.1.6 with
Python 2.4.1 on a RAQ4
THe actual lists are working but the problem is with the web interface
reporting a permission problem, and the httpd error log reporting
"Symbolic link not allowed"
THe background to it is
ter out spam in a postfix mailman environment
> on Linux?
>
Since we are using greylisting in addition to clamav (+ clamav-unofficial-
sigs) the amount of spam decreased once more. I don't remember when the last
customer complained about having unsolicited e-
I have recently set up a new installation of Mailman 2.1.5. All is
working OK but the URLs generated in the admin interface have the
domain name repeated.
e.g. In the main list webpage at
http://mailman.mydomain.org/mailman/admin
The link to the Mailman list appears as:
http
Hi,
Have some trouble with accessing a Mailman list via its web interface,
mailman 2.1.9. I did a dump of the config.pck file and notice the that
postings_responses option is very large and full of mailer-daemon and
postmaster addresses. What does this option record? Is it safe to wipe
Hi,
I've mailing lists with some members using non ASCII characters in there
names, like "Franz Müller ".
Mailman 2.1.29 is installed. When I run "list_members -f mylist" I get
question marks in the output. My locale settings:
LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=en_US
nding from my mail client and dirrecty from the web
interface, the result is the same.
The mail is received and archived and in the
/var/log/mailman3/web/mailman-web.log I see a lot of « loops » with this
kind of content :
…
[pid: 32617|app: -1|req: -1/57] ::1 () {38 vars in 782 bytes} [Tue
Hello,
I have started to use mailman to be an interface from and to several
mailling lists and newsgroups at news.uslinuxtraining.com. The inbound
(maillist-->newsgroups) works perfectly, however I do have a question before
I enable the outbound (newsgroups-->maillists).
I am n
Has anyone developed a CLI version of the pending msgs administration?
Clicking through hundreds of spams is pain in the butt via the web.
Thanks In Advance
James
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decode the MIME-attachments from the Archive pages...
Or can I change something in the Preferences to make their lives easier?
Thanks for help.
Regards,
Ralf
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Background:
---
Mailman v2.0
RedHat Linux 5.2
Python v1.5.2
Sendmail 8.9.3
(Yes, this machines needs some serious upgrading, but then it is only
a 486/66! :)
Problem:
We had a post to a closed list that went into the pending queue.
List Admin wanted to discard the message
really silly question indeed :(
If I have multiple mailing lists called, a-list b-list ...
do I have to have mail-alias for all this mail-idents on my mail-server?
also, the default setting for the mailbox of my sendmail is /var/mail/somebody,
I mean the location of mailboxes. Does mailman know
I've just spent most of an entire evening trying to understand where
Mailman (i.e., the scripts that build Mailman - configure & make - and
Mailman itself) gets its identity from. I'm attempting to install Mailman
on the host charlie. charlie is the web host for pret
--build, --host, and --target when using ./configure.
I've configured DEFAULT_HOSTNAME and DEFAULT_URL in Mailman/mm_cfg.py to
correct the values (i.e., pretorious.net) in Mailman/Default.py,
...but this flaming hunk of python still pulls the wrong values out of its
butt! (i.e., pretorious.net)
ot;
The flame burns higher and the hunk flies farther...
--
Eric P.
Los Gatos, CA
------
Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Here are the system values that I set before configuring:
`hostname www`
`hostname funkymonkeybutt.com`
Here are the settings I used to configure Mailman:
--build=funkymonkeybutt.com
--host=www
--target=/cgi-bin/mailman
...and the values I used in Mailman/mm-cfg.py (Pay special
po on my part: I used `domainname funkymonkeybutt.com`
^^
> > Here are the settings I used to configure Mailman:
> >
> > --build=funkymonkeybutt.com
> > --host=www
> > --target=/cgi-bin/mailman
>
> Umm, where did you get the
Hello:
Lists set as "public" (i.e., archive_private = 0) aren't appearing in the
listinfo page (though they do appear in the admin page). Is there a cure
for this?
--
Eric P.
Los Gatos, CA
------
Mailman-Users maillist - [
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, J C Lawrence wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 01:10:40 -0700 (PDT)
> eric-mailman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello: Lists set as "public" (i.e., archive_private = 0) aren't
> > appearing in the listinfo page (though they do appear i
The reason that I'm so keenly interested in Mailman is its Web-interface.
The promise of a customizable Web-interface is what differentitates
Mailman from all of the other MLM's. When I discovered last month that the
Web-interface wasn't quite so robust (the subscribe scr
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:07:20PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > What is happening?
>
> s/Van Gogh/Edvard Munch/
Really? Drats!!! (LOL)
--
Eric P.
Los Gatos, CA
------
Mailman
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Greg Ward wrote:
> On 02 October 2001, Eric Pretorious said:
> > What is happening?
>
> I think you'll find that painting was by Edvard Munch.
>
> Unfortunately, I don't know how to get you to feeling like "Starry
> Starry Night&quo
Gatos, CA
------
Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, J C Lawrence wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
> eric-mailman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello: I've noticed that the pine MUA recognizes the set of
> > commands that are encapsulated with this list's traffic
> &
Jon:
Thanks for the very-informative example. This list (and this software)
could use more contributors like you!
Eric P.
Los Gatos, CA
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Jon Carnes wrote:
> An Umbrella List is a list of other lists.
> For example, you have the following lists running in M
e thing that *might* work is to add your FQDN to /etc/hosts, so the
> resolver in libc (which is what Python's socket.gethost*() functions
> use) knows about it.
Greg:
Thanks for the suggestions.
Before configuring Mailman this time, I used `hostname www` and
`domainname funkYmonkeybutt.
xcentral.com'
> # DEFAULT_URL must end in a slash!
> DEFAULT_URL = 'http://lists.coxcentral.com/mailman/'
> PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = '/archives'
>
> MAILMAN_OWNER = 'mailman-owner@%s' % DEFAULT_HOST_NAME
Paul:
Sheer brilliance! The MAILMAN_OWNER setting
Hello:
Does anyone have an idea what might be causing this schizophrenic
behavior:
* admin [correctly] lists the "publicly advertised mailing lists".
* listinfo does not.
--
Eric P.
Los Gatos, CA
------
Mailman-Users maillist
Paul Cox's recommendations (DEFAULT_HOSTNAME, DEFAULT_URL, and
DEFAULT_OWNER) patched things up pretty nicely. There still seems to be
some discrepancy in the values that Mailman uses to identify itself (in
the blue banner across the top of the page):
* admin uses the DEFAULT_HOSTNAME val
Hi,
I'm new to mailman and this list, so please forgive me if I've missed
something obvious here or in the documentation (I have spent many hours
looking, before resorting to this plea for help).
I suspect that most of my problems lie with the Debian GNU/Linux
packages (Testing)
s suffering stemmed
from two silly failures in the Debian package installation, i.e.
1. The Python scripts in /var/lib/mailman/Mailman (linked to
/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman in Debian) did not have the executable bit set
for any user. Reading Utils.py pointed me to that possibility.
2. The templates
Please forgive me if I have missed some obvious documentation, but I'm
having some difficulty getting mailman to co-operate in the use of
virtual hosts.
I've read Nigel Metherigham's Exim-Mailman howto and added his suggested
code to my exim.conf file. List mail is definitely bei
Hi guys
I need to unsubscribe everyone on one of my lists and then
subscribe in mass again. I have the list for the new
subscriptions, but I don't see where I perform the mass
removal.
Mailman just asks for a file, which I don't have.
Anyone with some bright ideas?
Thanks
Che
I admin nearly identical installations of mailman on two different servers.
On both, I have the following set in mm_cfg.py:
VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes
VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1
On one system, running qmail as the MTA, VERP works as expected. On the
other
I'm using mailman 2.1.4.
There is very little description of "personalized lists" in the mailman
documentation. The FAQ says:
Q. Can I put the user's address in the footer that Mailman adds to
each message?
A. Yes, in Mailman 2.1. The site admin needs to enable
d below.
>
> Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 11:19:15AM CDT
> > I admin nearly identical installations of mailman on two different servers.
> > On both, I have the following set in mm_cfg.py:
> >
> > VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
> > VERP_
-member posts... "allow",
"hold",
"reject", "discard"
/tim
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Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
; off.
If it's a once off, then go for it, but change back
afterwards.
Cheers
Hilton
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Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bi
unately I don't know about the
confirmation emails to YOU.
Cheers
Hilton
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Searchable Ar
mailman.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Hilton
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Synthpunk
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 8:21 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question
How would I go about creating my own mailing list
n/upgrade seems to die at this
point without fail.
Any suggestions?
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Searchable A
I'm using mailman as a list server with courier as my MTA. The mailman user
is in /etc/passwd as belonging to primary group 'mailman'. Mailman is
compiled with --with-mail-gid set to the group of the mail user. This is
set to 'courier' which works for most purposes,
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