Hi, WebAPI fans-
The minutes for the 02 April 2008 DOM3 Events telcon can be found here:
http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html
Or as text, below:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Web API WG Teleconference
02 Apr 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/2_Apr_2008
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Doug, Carmelo, smaug, ap, Travis
Regrets
Chair
Doug
Scribe
Carmelo, Travis
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Key Event Model
2. [6]keyCode and charCode
3. [7]mobile-specific events
* [8]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 02 April 2008
<smaug> Zakim: ??P4 is smaug
<shepazu>
[9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047/
keyCode-ie.htm
[9]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047/keyCode-ie.htm
<shepazu> scribe: Carmelo
<shepazu> scribeNick: Carmelo
<ap_> Alexey Proskuryakov, Apple
<scribe> ACTION: Item to To Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and
keypress as described on [recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action01]
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047
/keyCode-ie.htm
[11]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/att-0047/keyCode-ie.htm
<ap_> close enough :)
Daug went over new introductions
Key Event Model
<shepazu> Ollie sent in this:
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/att-00
34/gecko-keyflow.svg
[12]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/att-0034/gecko-keyflow.svg
<shepazu>
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/0034.h
tml
[13]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/0034.html
<ap_> correct, 10:40 PM :)
<smaug> 9:40 pm here
<ap_> that's an OK time for me, no problem!
<shepazu> Alexey,s email:
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Mar/0220.h
tml
[14]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Mar/0220.html
<Travis> (a little late, sorry)
<Travis> I'll be calling in just a minute...
Ap: Explained his model view
Doug: Although browsers can not gurantee event orders's users can
... to Alexey, Do u thing that will be useful?
Ollie: Quite a number of issues with that.
<shepazu> Dead keys, etc.
<smaug> it's very noisy right now
<smaug> and echo too
<ap_> yes, that's correct
Doug to Alexey: When your first started you had a model similar to
Firefox?
<shepazu> and now they no longer provide an emulation layer
<ap_> yes, I can describe it like that
<ap_> that's both for matching IE, and for better supporting
advanced text input on windows
Alexey: We do not have that many problems with our model.
<ap_> not to say that Firefox is significantly broken
Alexey: A few minor issues with Windows
<ap_> but there were some issues
Alexey: Possible to define some kind of state diagram
Travis: What about performance issues after removing the emulation
layer?
Alexey - None
<shepazu> TL: did you drop the emulation layer for benchmarking
reasons?
<shepazu> AP: no, to better match IE...
<shepazu> ...
<ap_> and resolve some issues with advanced text input that we had
<ap_> ok
Doug: Will it be possible to write down (email) the issues?
<ap_> in fact, we are trying to make OS X and Windows versions work
the same
<ap_> as much as possible
<shepazu> scribeNick: Travis
<shepazu> scribe: Travis
It would be nice to standarize on one model or another...
(TL: said that)
Doug: It would mean that all other browers might have to change
their behavior--at the risk of breaking pages.
(someone:sorry) Whenever we change eventing, we break something. (It
always happens)
Whenever a webpage wants to handle IME, it's a mess
Doug: With a single model, there will be pages that break, but I
think that most pages don't use it 'cause that can't depend on it.
... If people are relying on a model, it's probably IE's model.
In Safari, we saw significant breakage on many pages, but not
significant enough to cause a huge problem. (many pages were
special-casing for safari, but they were quite ready to adapt)
Doug: Do you think that if we specified a set behavior, that those
pages would change to match?
Yes, big sites would adapt.
Doug: that reduces the risk of us proposing a specific model.
... until we hear otherwise, we will continue to try to specify a
model.
... If we do have a cleaner (or specified) model, we would adopt it.
... We have two options:
... 1) Figure out IE's behavior and specify that
... 2) Find a cleaner model, moderately compatible and specify that
instead.
... What does MS think?
... Not worth it if W3C specifies a model and IE doesn't adopt.
Travis: IE is committed to adopting the W3C eventing model. It'd be
great if it matches IE's model :), but we're open to the greater
good.
Doug: Need an action item. Step 1: What are the issues that Apple
ran into.
... Apple has done the most work to be cross-platform compatible.
... Ollie/Travis, can you describe the model in language useful for
adoption to a spec?
Ollie: Not sure I can provide a 'ready to spec' model, but I ready
to try...
<smaug> not Ollie
(thanks)
<smaug> but Alexey
Doug: We have to consider IME, charcode/keycode (which is a
nightmare)
... I gave Carmelo an action to...
... We will start email conversation about details of key event
order wrt IME.
keyCode and charCode
<shepazu>
[15]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/KeyCode_and_charCode
[15] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/KeyCode_and_charCode
Doug: I don't think current implemenations are consistent between
browsers, platforms, etc.
<shepazu> [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Key_Identifiers
[16] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Key_Identifiers
Doug: Link discusses key identifiers (it's incomplete)
... specifies what to specify for key identifiers.
... We we likely have trouble specifying exactly how this is to be
done.
... How do we all feel about identifying, but not specifying?
I like it in terms of how it can help web developers.
OP: Extremely useful for web developers.
Doug: Useful for Web devs to have a model for them to use.
OP: Right now they just have to target all browsers...
Doug: CharCode/Keycode broken for internationalization issues...
... Charcode/keycode (what it is/informative index) will be very
useful.
... Very useful for legacy browser support...
... For new web content, key identifiers are a much better model.
Alexey: Not committing to be a guru on key identifiers...
... Thought it a bit strange to have Unicode named values, because
they're not characters (the keys)
Doug: Key identifier is more of an abstraction layer
... it's more of a key/value mapping.
... Example: a key with a 'Q' written on it, but then I change
keyboard layout for it be 'a'.
... When I press the 'Q' key, the returned value is 'a'.
... This is the best result for internationization.
... For keycode, it's not the same. There's a certain number
assigned to a physical key.
... It's not perfect, but for Intl. issue, this will be great for
web app developers in the majority of cases.
... Personally, don't see it so useful for next gen. web apps to
have char/keycode support (if they're developing next gen. web aps)
... Frameworks could abstract key/charcode mapping to key
identifiers. If this doesn't exist it should (hint hint)
... Gave Carmelo action to make a chart for keycode/charcode across
platform/browser.
... MS probably has some internal docs on this stuff...
I can go looking for them. If they're not public domain, they
probably should be.
Doug: When is Mozilla going to build an OS? <grin>
(oh, he was serious)
Doug: unofficial action to Alexey: we'd love to see key events
order/IME/keycode/charcode from Safari.
Alexey: I can provide data from what cause us to change our
approach...
Doug: Travis, can you get some similar docs?
Travis: I will try to find some documenation on it (or perhaps some
tests).
... Agree, there needs to be some information I can dig up; I think
this is important.
Doug: I will send email for our expected deliverables.
... Will be on vacation/travelling for three weeks starting next
month. Will see if Andrew could chair...
... Will try to keep us on task.
mobile-specific events
Doug: Resolving keycode/charcode could keep us all busy.
<shepazu> [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Mobile_Events
[17] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Mobile_Events
<shepazu> * longpress
<shepazu> * IME
<shepazu> * softkeys and other Key Identifiers
<shepazu> * mobile keypad location
<shepazu> * joystick
Doug: Looking at longpress
... typically called 'longpress'. Some debate as to whether this
should be it's own event or a property on an event.
... Could be like 'repeat'.
<shepazu> [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Longpress
[18] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Longpress
Ollie: What's the rationale for having it be its own event?
Doug: Anyone know if their platform supports long key press? If so,
please provide details.
<crickets>
Doug: IE uses repeat. Does Moz. support repeat?
... is Moz. willing to implement?
Travis: IE is willing to implement longkeypress
Doug: How about Apple?
Alexey: Currently have no support. Can't say about IPhone.
Doug: IPhone doesn't have typical UI. Rationale for longpress on
this phone is not very clear.
... Rationale on mobile is that keys are limited, and keys do
different things if pressed for a long time.
... From IPhone perspective, (and more interesting) is how softkeys
are implemented.
Alexey: Don't know much about IPhone...
Doug: Goal is probably to emulate MacOS.
... All feel free to review items listed above.
<shepazu> [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Joystick
[19] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Joystick
Doug: mobile guys requested joystick/mobile keypad location
(similar)
... Pull out your phone and observe 4-way/8-way toggle button.
... Originally, requested specific key identifiers (Joystick-up,
etc.)
<shepazu> KeyboardEvent.keyLocation
Doug: However, after discussion, best idea was to use
up/down/left/right keys, and use a keyboard event keylocation...
<shepazu> DOM_KEY_LOCATION_MOBILE
Alexey: Use same event interface for joystick/mousewheel?
<ap_> not Alexey...
Doug: Don't think a joystick on a mobile phone, is quite the same as
what I was thinking...
... Probably using arrow keys and keyrepeat.
... But is probably device dependent.
Travis: Joystick events may be out-of-scope...(in tranditional
joystick sense)
Doug: Suspects that arrow keys would work just fine on mobile...
Travis: Are there diagonal arrow keys (for an 8-way direction
keypad?)
Doug: Short answer: yes.
<shepazu>
[20]http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/keyset.html#KeySet-Set
[20] http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/keyset.html#KeySet-Set
Hm. I see "Left", etc.,
Doug: I added them though... not in the above link yet.
... Some keyboards have diagonals.
... I will make the full list of keyboard identifiers.
... Alexey, what is the identifier for the Apple key?
Alexey: It reports as the Meta key.
Travis: Windows keyboards usually have a 'righ-click' or context
menu key.
(Is that supported?)
<shepazu> [21]http://people.w3.org/rishida/utils/keyevents/
[21] http://people.w3.org/rishida/utils/keyevents/
Doug: Can't wait for key identifiers.
Travis: returns the keycode 91 '['
Doug: Don't think mobile implementers really needed a joystick
event.
... I'm expecting some feedback on that.
... (Mobile guys could use arrow keys + key location=mobile key pad)
... I want to write a new spec for 'pen' events. (for tablets, etc.)
... Something like an 'alternate devices' spec that maps to events
and defines new ones.
... I think having the up/down + key location is fine for mobile.
... Ollie, do you think this is OK?
Ollie: yes.
Doug: Reviewing action items...
<shepazu> [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/
[22] http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/
<shepazu> ACTION: Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and keypress
[recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-269 - Cross tests keyup keydown and
keypress [on Carmelo Montanez - due 2008-04-09].
<shepazu> ACTION: document Key Identifiers on wiki [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - document
<shepazu> ACTION: schepers to document Key Identifiers on wiki
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-270 - Document Key Identifiers on wiki [on
Doug Schepers - due 2008-04-09].
Adios
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and keypress
[recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: document Key Identifiers on wiki [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Item to To Carmelo to cross tests keyup keydown and
keypress as described on [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: schepers to document Key Identifiers on wiki [recorded
in [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html#action04]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl version 1.133
([31]CVS log)
$Date: 2008/04/02 19:58:01 $
_________________________________________________________
[30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51
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[32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/Allie/Alexey/
Found Scribe: Carmelo
Found ScribeNick: Carmelo
Found ScribeNick: Travis
Found Scribe: Travis
Inferring ScribeNick: Travis
Scribes: Carmelo, Travis
ScribeNicks: Carmelo, Travis
Default Present: Doug, Carmelo, smaug, ap, Travis
Present: Doug Carmelo smaug ap Travis
Agenda: [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/2_Apr_2008
Found Date: 02 Apr 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.h
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People with action items: carmelo document item schepers
[33] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/2_Apr_2008
[34] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-webapi-minutes.html
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