ah okay, I missed that this was found using openmpi. then it’s probably not the same issue we had.
I can’t remember in which version it was fixed (I’m away from my work computer)….I do know in our case openmpi and the latest Intel One API work fine. Randy > On Apr 29, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Klaij, Christiaan <c.kl...@marin.nl> wrote: > > Well, the error below only shows-up thanks to openmpi and gnu compilers. > With the intel mpi and compilers it just hangs (tried oneapi 2023.1.0). In > which version was that bug fixed? > > Chris > > ________________________________________ > <image374583.png> > dr. ir. Christiaan Klaij > | senior researcher | Research & Development | CFD > Development > T +31 317 49 33 44 <tel:+31%20317%2049%2033%2044> | > c.kl...@marin.nl <mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl> | > https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.marin.nl__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bW2X4VgowGOLrAASgbFOR_Mh6HW4HtWqrdtpsvpnpiFrIwki34JOGyih-h-1bvgb-Bh4EdWRUoVqQW7s6CzTuZcF2A$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.marin.nl/__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bW2X4VgowGOLrAASgbFOR_Mh6HW4HtWqrdtpsvpnpiFrIwki34JOGyih-h-1bvgb-Bh4EdWRUoVqQW7s6Cx-ci9iNg$ > > > <image322757.png> > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/marin.wageningen__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bW2X4VgowGOLrAASgbFOR_Mh6HW4HtWqrdtpsvpnpiFrIwki34JOGyih-h-1bvgb-Bh4EdWRUoVqQW7s6Cxl-rBbfA$ > > > <image512282.png> > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/marin__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bW2X4VgowGOLrAASgbFOR_Mh6HW4HtWqrdtpsvpnpiFrIwki34JOGyih-h-1bvgb-Bh4EdWRUoVqQW7s6Cw7FNelIQ$ > > > <image090879.png> > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/marinmultimedia__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bW2X4VgowGOLrAASgbFOR_Mh6HW4HtWqrdtpsvpnpiFrIwki34JOGyih-h-1bvgb-Bh4EdWRUoVqQW7s6CwmfHQRog$ > > > From: Randall Mackie <rlmackie...@gmail.com> > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2025 3:33 PM > To: Klaij, Christiaan > Cc: Matthew Knepley; petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov; Isaac, Toby > Subject: Re: [petsc-users] problem with nested logging > > You don't often get email from rlmackie...@gmail.com. Learn why this is > important<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bW2X4VgowGOLrAASgbFOR_Mh6HW4HtWqrdtpsvpnpiFrIwki34JOGyih-h-1bvgb-Bh4EdWRUoVqQW7s6CwgJDUS5w$ > > > We had a similar issue last year that we eventually tracked down to a bug in > Intel MPI AllReduce, which was around the same version you are using. > > Can you try a different MPI or the latest Intel One API and see if your error > clears? > > Randy > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 8:17 AM Klaij, Christiaan via petsc-users > <petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>> wrote: > I don't think so, we have tracing in place to detect mismatches. But as soon > as I switch the tracing on, the error disappears... Same if I add a counter > or print statements before and after EventBegin/End. Looks like a memory > corruption problem, maybe nothing to do with petsc despite the error message. > > Chris > > ________________________________________ > From: Matthew Knepley <knep...@gmail.com<mailto:knep...@gmail.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2025 1:50 PM > To: Klaij, Christiaan > Cc: Junchao Zhang; petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>; > Isaac, Toby > Subject: Re: [petsc-users] problem with nested logging > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 6:50 AM Klaij, Christiaan > <c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl>>> > wrote: > Here's a slightly better error message, obtained --with-debugging=1 > > Is it possible that you have a mismatched EventBegin()/EventEnd() in your > code? That could be why we cannot reproduce it here. > > Thanks, > > Matt > > [0]PETSC ERROR: --------------------- Error Message > -------------------------------------------------------------- > [0]PETSC ERROR: Petsc has generated inconsistent data > [0]PETSC ERROR: MPIU_Allreduce() called in different locations (code lines) > on different processors > [0]PETSC ERROR: See > https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://petsc.org/release/faq/__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjggvQAzPU$ > for trouble shooting. > [0]PETSC ERROR: Petsc Release Version 3.22.4, Mar 01, 2025 > [0]PETSC ERROR: ./refresco with 2 MPI process(es) and PETSC_ARCH on > marclus3login2 by cklaij Tue Apr 29 12:43:54 2025 > [0]PETSC ERROR: Configure options: > --prefix=/home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/install/extLibs > --with-mpi-dir=/cm/shared/apps/openmpi/gcc/4.0.2 --with-x=0 --with-mpe=0 > --with-debugging=1 > --download-superlu_dist=https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/superlu_dist-8.1.2.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgVgVAJPM$ > --with-blaslapack-dir=/cm/shared/apps/intel/oneapi/mkl/2021.4.0 > --download-parmetis=https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/parmetis-4.0.3-p9.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgo2JWTO4$ > > --download-metis=https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/metis-5.1.0-p11.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgX9ZMYJA$ > --with-packages-build-dir=/home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild > --with-ssl=0 --with-shared-libraries=1 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #1 PetscLogNestedTreePrintLine() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:289 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #2 PetscLogNestedTreePrint() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:379 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #3 PetscLogNestedTreePrint() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:384 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #4 PetscLogNestedTreePrint() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:384 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #5 PetscLogNestedTreePrintTop() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:420 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #6 PetscLogHandlerView_Nested_XML() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:443 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #7 PetscLogHandlerView_Nested() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/lognested.c:405 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #8 PetscLogHandlerView() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/interface/loghandler.c:342 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #9 PetscLogView() at > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/build-libs/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/plog.c:2040 > [0]PETSC ERROR: #10 > /home/cklaij/ReFRESCO/trunk/Code/src/petsc_include_impl.F90:130 > > ________________________________________ > [cid:ii_19681617e7812ff9cfc1] > dr. ir. Christiaan Klaij > | senior researcher | Research & Development | CFD Development > T +31 317 49 33 44<tel:+31%20317%2049%2033%2044> | > c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl>> > | > https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.marin.nl__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgJooxJhg$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.marin.nl/__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgpOXjQSM$ > > > [Facebook]<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/marin.wageningen__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjg_3Zt0Pw$ > > > [LinkedIn]<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/marin__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgcpgQdSE$ > > > [YouTube]<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/marinmultimedia__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgn8qP6_I$ > > > > From: Klaij, Christiaan > <c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl>>> > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2025 3:53 PM > To: Matthew Knepley > Cc: Junchao Zhang; > petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>>; > Isaac, Toby > Subject: Re: [petsc-users] problem with nested logging > > Bisecting would be quite hard, it's not just the petsc version that changed, > also other libs, compilers, even os components. > > Chris > > ________________________________________ > From: Matthew Knepley > <knep...@gmail.com<mailto:knep...@gmail.com><mailto:knep...@gmail.com<mailto:knep...@gmail.com>>> > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2025 3:06 PM > To: Klaij, Christiaan > Cc: Junchao Zhang; > petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>>; > Isaac, Toby > Subject: Re: [petsc-users] problem with nested logging > > You don't often get email from > knep...@gmail.com<mailto:knep...@gmail.com><mailto:knep...@gmail.com<mailto:knep...@gmail.com>>. > Learn why this is > important<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgcKEJXRA$ > > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 8:45 AM Klaij, Christiaan via petsc-users > <petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>>>> > wrote: > I've tried adding a nested log viewer to src/snes/tutorials/ex70.c, > but it does not replicate the problem and works fine. > > Perhaps it is related to fortran, since the manualpage of > PetscLogNestedBegin says "No fortran support" (why? we've been > using it in fortran ever since). > > Therefore I've tried adding it to src/snes/ex5f90.F90 and that > also works fine. It seems I cannot replicate the problem in a > small example, unfortunately. > > We cannot replicate it here. Is there a chance you could bisect to see what > change is responsible? > > Thanks, > > Matt > > Chris > > ________________________________________ > From: Junchao Zhang > <junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com><mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com>><mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com><mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com>>>> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2025 3:51 PM > To: Klaij, Christiaan > Cc: > petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>>>; > Isaac, Toby > Subject: Re: [petsc-users] problem with nested logging > > You don't often get email from > junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com><mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com>><mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com><mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com<mailto:junchao.zh...@gmail.com>>>. > Learn why this is > important<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!cmLENZvO_Uydoa8ciUmsyX-F-QiJt9a2ZfQRUvQnRibGm7VE6PED7S_BDsUgjOzvPZIJyiIoJ8bLJk6gVgt1dmE$ > > > Toby (Cc'ed) might know it. Or could you provide an example? > > --Junchao Zhang > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 3:31 AM Klaij, Christiaan via petsc-users > <petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>>><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov><mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov<mailto:petsc-users@mcs.anl.gov>>>>> > wrote: > We recently upgraded from 3.19.4 to 3.22.4 but face the problem below with > the nested logging. Any ideas? > > Chris > > > [1]PETSC ERROR: --------------------- Error Message > -------------------------------------------------------------- > [1]PETSC ERROR: General MPI error > [1]PETSC ERROR: MPI error 1 MPI_ERR_BUFFER: invalid buffer pointer > [1]PETSC ERROR: See > https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://petsc.org/release/faq/__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!cmLENZvO_Uydoa8ciUmsyX-F-QiJt9a2ZfQRUvQnRibGm7VE6PED7S_BDsUgjOzvPZIJyiIoJ8bLJk6gIT68pbk$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://petsc.org/release/faq/__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGM3UaqHzc$> > for trouble shooting. > [1]PETSC ERROR: Petsc Release Version 3.22.4, Mar 01, 2025 > [1]PETSC ERROR: refresco with 2 MPI process(es) and PETSC_ARCH on > marclus3login2 by jwindt Fri Apr 25 08:52:30 2025 > [1]PETSC ERROR: Configure options: > --prefix=/home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/install-libs-gnu > --with-mpi-dir=/cm/shared/apps/openmpi/gcc/4.0.2 --with-x=0 --with-mpe=0 > --with-debugging=0 > --download-superlu_dist=https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/superlu_dist-8.1.2.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!cmLENZvO_Uydoa8ciUmsyX-F-QiJt9a2ZfQRUvQnRibGm7VE6PED7S_BDsUgjOzvPZIJyiIoJ8bLJk6grH5BbeU$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/superlu_dist-8.1.2.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGM21-2D-o$> > --with-blaslapack-dir=/cm/shared/apps/intel/oneapi/mkl/2021.4.0 > --download-parmetis=https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/parmetis-4.0.3-p9.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!cmLENZvO_Uydoa8ciUmsyX-F-QiJt9a2ZfQRUvQnRibGm7VE6PED7S_BDsUgjOzvPZIJyiIoJ8bLJk6gw4-tEtY$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/parmetis-4.0.3-p9.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGMW0lYHko$> > > --download-metis=https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/metis-5.1.0-p11.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!cmLENZvO_Uydoa8ciUmsyX-F-QiJt9a2ZfQRUvQnRibGm7VE6PED7S_BDsUgjOzvPZIJyiIoJ8bLJk6gHq4uYiY$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://updates.marin.nl/refresco/libs/metis-5.1.0-p11.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGMbSrIiUg$> > > --with-packages-build-dir=/home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild > --with-ssl=0 --with-shared-libraries=1 CFLAGS="-std=gnu11 -Wall > -funroll-all-loops -O3 -DNDEBUG" CXXFLAGS="-std=gnu++14 -Wall > -funroll-all-loops -O3 -DNDEBUG " COPTFLAGS="-std=gnu11 -Wall > -funroll-all-loops -O3 -DNDEBUG" CXXOPTFLAGS="-std=gnu++14 -Wall > -funroll-all-loops -O3 -DNDEBUG " FCFLAGS="-Wall -funroll-all-loops > -ffree-line-length-0 -Wno-maybe-uninitialized -Wno-target-lifetime > -Wno-unused-function -O3 -DNDEBUG" F90FLAGS="-Wall -funroll-all-loops > -ffree-line-length-0 -Wno-maybe-uninitialized -Wno-target-lifetime > -Wno-unused-function -O3 -DNDEBUG" FOPTFLAGS="-Wall -funroll-all-loops > -ffree-line-length-0 -Wno-maybe-uninitialized -Wno-target-lifetime > -Wno-unused-function -O3 -DNDEBUG" > [1]PETSC ERROR: #1 PetscLogNestedTreePrint() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:330 > [1]PETSC ERROR: #2 PetscLogNestedTreePrint() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:384 > [1]PETSC ERROR: #3 PetscLogNestedTreePrint() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:384 > [1]PETSC ERROR: #4 PetscLogNestedTreePrintTop() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:420 > [1]PETSC ERROR: #5 PetscLogHandlerView_Nested_XML() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/xmlviewer.c:443 > [1]PETSC ERROR: #6 PetscLogHandlerView_Nested() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/impls/nested/lognested.c:405 > [1]PETSC ERROR: #7 PetscLogHandlerView() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/handler/interface/loghandler.c:342 > [1]PETSC ERROR: #8 PetscLogView() at > /home/jwindt/cmake_builds/refresco/build-libs-gnu/superbuild/petsc/src/src/sys/logging/plog.c:2040 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > MPI_ABORT was invoked on rank 1 in communicator MPI_COMM_WORLD > with errorcode 98. > > NOTE: invoking MPI_ABORT causes Open MPI to kill all MPI processes. > You may or may not see output from other processes, depending on > exactly when Open MPI kills them. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > [cid:ii_196725d1e2a809852191] > dr. ir. Christiaan Klaij > | senior researcher | Research & Development | CFD Development > T +31 317 49 33 44<tel:+31%20317%2049%2033%2044> | > c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl>><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl>>><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl>><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl><mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl<mailto:c.kl...@marin.nl>>>> > | > https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.marin.nl__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!cmLENZvO_Uydoa8ciUmsyX-F-QiJt9a2ZfQRUvQnRibGm7VE6PED7S_BDsUgjOzvPZIJyiIoJ8bLJk6g8TwMMcw$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.marin.nl/__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGM8tSNH1g$> > [Facebook]<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/marin.wageningen__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGMcVCZ9hk$> > [LinkedIn]<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/marin__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGMIDBZW7k$> > [YouTube]<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/marinmultimedia__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!biVlk6PKXoJvq5oVlmWdVJfW9tXv-JlwuWr3zg3jI5u1_jo8rvtZpEYnHO5RjdBqQEoqpqlJ3nusrFGMVKWos24$> > > > -- > What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their experiments > is infinitely more interesting than any results to which their experiments > lead. > -- Norbert Wiener > > https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjg539kFLg$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgMsu6hhA$ > > > > > -- > What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their experiments > is infinitely more interesting than any results to which their experiments > lead. > -- Norbert Wiener > > https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjg539kFLg$ > > <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!fFq1daAFFpKhBA_NWU3sd2QJe_S44rklqeRi0TB57XI0nQsh9jgy8iw3JNGpBbd21zqvO3QlGTLa7kjgMsu6hhA$ > >
