On 3/20/2011 7:37 AM, Bob W wrote:
Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also
are
subjected to it in training. They know how it works. It's just that
it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.
the evidence suggests that it's not effective. But that's not what matters,
what matters is the moral issue. Even if it was 100% effective it would
still be wrong and we should not do it.
Which evidence would you be talking about? There is testimony and
evidence that valuable information was extracted from Khalid Sheikh
Muhammed, and Abu Zubayda that let to the interruption of terrorist
attacks, saving lives. And, if you can waterboard someone -- 10 times
or 100 times -- and it saves peoples lives, and the anguish and
psychological terror of all the people connected with those lives,
directly or indirectly, it's justifiable.
That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
subjected to it in return.
that's a damn silly thing to say, the sort of thing you hear in playgrounds.
We're supposed to be different from those people. Use of their tactics makes
us indistinguishable and means we have lost the fight to defend and promote
our values.
That operates from the incorrect assumption that waterboarding isn't
different from their tactics. It quite clearly is, whether you want to
recognize it or not.
B
-- Walt
On 3/20/2011 5:10 AM, Bob W wrote:
There's an enormous difference between undergoing something
voluntarily for
training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where
you
are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will
end,
and being subjected to the same thing by your enemies while you're
kept in
solitary confinement with no access to anyone else, not knowing where
you
are, against your will, time after time for months and years, not
knowing
when it will be over, but knowing that it's going to happen again and
again
and again, and listening for the steps in the corridor that tell you
they're
coming back.
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