I had read the blog post and I think my proposal fits well with its
intent. It specifically says that scopes are not for the fine grained
access control that Warren wants and that that should properly be the
purview of the resource server.
While a quick look at RAR points to the fact that a specification would
be beneficial, it also appears that support for RAR is lagging. So
until authorization servers, resource servers, and clients all support
RAR, some kind of scope context is going to continue to be needed.
That kind of "universal" support in a decoupled ecosystem like e-mail,
calendars, and contacts is going to take time.
So, while I agree expanding the scope of the draft to include standard
RAR profiles is a good idea, I don't believe dropping the scopes would
be a good idea at this time. Doing so could easily hamstring widespread
support of advanced authentication for these services for many years.
On 7/20/2025 04:01, Lombardo, Jeff wrote:
To add to Warren point, it is important to reup feu Vittorio Bertocci
blog entry on the nature of OAuth2 scopes that cover exactly this use
case: https://auth0.com/blog/on-the-nature-of-oauth2-scopes/
I think this proposal instead of building on top of the `scope` claim
should pivot into profiling *OAuth 2.0 Rich Authorization Requests*
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9396)**
*Jean-François “Jeff” Lombardo*|Amazon Web Services
//
On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 08:19 AM Warren Parad <[email protected]> wrote
I have some serious problems with this document:
- I fundamentally disagree about the scopes defined for mail, calendar,
and contact. One of the biggest problems with the scopes today, is
the lack
of the scope "update/modify/delete BUT only the emails, contacts, and
calendar meetings that the app has created". I don't want to give
*access
to delete all my calendars* just so an app can *create calendar
appointments in one calendar*.
For me, scopes for calendar and contacts are already broken by design, and
this document actually makes it worse. Take the scope
*urn:ietf:params:oauth:scope:calendar:update:*
> Grants permission to create, modify, and delete calendars and events on
> the user's behalf.
The creation, modification, and deletion of calendars must be completely
independent from the creation, modification, and deletion of
calendars. And
most problematically, *as a user*, I would only want to give access to do
this one calendar at a time. Because of this we really need to define
resource based syntax inside of OAuth spec to replace the scopes.
In conclusion, this document only sets out to standardize the
irresponsible
behavior of apps utilizing scopes today, cementing the current paradigm
rather than replacing it with something that actually works correctly.
Using OAuth scopes alone for this access, is the part that is wrong, not
that it isn't standardized. In some cases, an incremental approach might
help get to the perfect solution, but I don't see this document helping to
make that happen. If it does anything for me, this prevents forward
progress in preference of keeping exactly what we already have.
On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 7:42 AM Clinton Bunch
<[email protected]>
<mailto:<[email protected]>>
wrote:
> I submitted https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bunch-groupware-scopes/
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bunch-groupware-scopes/>
>
> This is a proposal of standard OAUTH2 scopes to support the loosely
> coupled world of mail, calendaring, and contacts servers and clients.
>
> The current state is that every Authorization Server defines their own
> scopes for these groupware services, leading client developers to hard
> code these scopes, which, in practicality, limits them to supporting
> OAUTH2 authentication for only a dozen or so providers big enough to
> strong arm them into it.
>
> This is the remaining barrier to wide spread deployment of OAUTH2
> authentication for groupware services. The other half of the problem,
> Client Registration, is solved by RFC 7591, OAuth 2.0 Dynamic Client
> Registration Protocol.
>
> With these two pieces in place, Authorization Servers and clients can
> begin to implement this advanced authorization process.
>
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>
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