Just wanted to add some closure... turned out that mod_wsgi had nothing to 
do with the segmentation faults.  After removing all traces of mod_wsgi 
they were still occurring and it was the Apache child processes 
segfaulting, not the mod_wsgi ones.  (We did not notice that initially 
because the failed process was gone and replaced by the time we noticed a 
segfault and we were focused on mod_wsgi, that being the last change made; 
live and learn!)

On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 3:05:56 PM UTC-6 stuart mcgraw wrote:

> I was afraid of that.  I'll look into that further.  Thanks again for your 
> help.
>
> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 2:52:57 PM UTC-6 Graham Dumpleton wrote:
>
>> Enabling capture of core dump files and then using gdb to work out where 
>> C level stack trace is for when process is crashing is all I can think of.
>>
>> On 31 Oct 2022, at 7:38 am, stuart mcgraw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the vhost suggestion.  I hadn't thought of that but it turned 
>> out we didn't need to.
>>
>> After more testing it turns out that a .wsgi script with simple hello 
>> world script per
>>
>>   
>> https://modwsgi.readthedocs.io/en/develop/user-guides/quick-configuration-guide.html#wsgi-application-script-file
>>
>> is exhibiting the problem: with no incoming requests at all the mod_wsgi 
>> process after sitting there for anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours, 
>> dies with a segmentation fault.  Any idea what else I could look at?
>> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 12:10:38 AM UTC-6 Graham Dumpleton 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The LogLevel can be set just in a VirtualHost context if is under 
>>> separate host. If you are then using separate log files for differential 
>>> VirtualHost it should at least be semi segmented from everything else.
>>>
>>> On 26 Oct 2022, at 4:34 pm, stuart mcgraw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> I was grepping all the log files for any messages within a minute or two 
>>> before the segfaults so if a request was logged anywhere I should have seen 
>>> it.  
>>>
>>> I'll mention the LogLevel Debug setting to them, but there were 
>>> complaints before that LogLevel Info was too noisy so I'm not sure that 
>>> will fly.
>>>
>>> I'll look into the possibility of errant app threads and post back if 
>>> anything turns up.  Thanks very much for your help with this.
>>> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 11:05:28 PM UTC-6 Graham Dumpleton wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only way I can think of that you may get a request which wasn't 
>>>> logged, is if an internal Apache request was triggered via an internal 
>>>> redirect from another Apache module. There still has to be an original 
>>>> request, but it would be logged as different request URL to where it got 
>>>> internally redirected.
>>>>
>>>> Since you are using mod_wsgi daemon mode you can likely see better 
>>>> evidence of all requests being handled if turn on verbose debugging mode, 
>>>> but would be quite noisy.
>>>>
>>>>     LogLevel debug
>>>>     WSGIVerboseDebugging On
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>> On 26 Oct 2022, at 3:33 pm, stuart mcgraw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I didn't compile mod_wsgi myself so I can't say 100% but the person who 
>>>> did said so and there is a source directory on the machine named 
>>>> mod_wsgi-4.9.4 with a mod_wsgi.so file whose sha1 checksum matches that of 
>>>> the file in the apache modules/ directory, so I'd say I'm 99.9% sure.
>>>>
>>>> But the chances of >1Gi requests being made seem pretty small.  The 
>>>> urls haven't been publicized, there are only a handful of known users 
>>>> accessing the urls infrequently as testers and nothing in the application 
>>>> would generate requests of that magnitude.
>>>>
>>>> This may be out of scope for you, but are you aware of any (reasonably 
>>>> normal) circumstances under which a mod_wsgi process could receive a 
>>>> request that wasn't logged by Apache?  Or perhaps I could modify the 
>>>> mod_wsgi source code to print a message to a file when a request was 
>>>> received (which I could then correlate with the Apache logs to answer the 
>>>> question.)  Because usage is very light and this is only for short term 
>>>> debugging, I don't think locking or anything fancy would be needed?
>>>>
>>>> And I am still wondering about library mismatches or conflicts since 
>>>> Apache, Python, mod_wsgi and C-based Python modules (eg psyocopg2) used by 
>>>> the app were all built from source.  It is possible that some version 
>>>> mismatch there causes some memory corruption that is later manifest when 
>>>> one of the mod_wsgi housekeeping threads runs?  I would like if possible 
>>>> to 
>>>> rule this out or at least put at the bottom of the list.  
>>>> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 8:35:07 PM UTC-6 Graham Dumpleton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I know you said you were using mod_wsgi/4.9.4, but are you absolutely 
>>>>> sure?  Apache/2.4.54 made a breaking change by changing the default for 
>>>>> LimitRequestBody directive, which would cause mod_wsgi daemon process to 
>>>>> crash when there were sent large request bodies over 1Gi. This was fixed 
>>>>> in 
>>>>> version 4.9.4, but am wondering whether your production system has older 
>>>>> version than your development systems use and you just aren't aware of 
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://modwsgi.readthedocs.io/en/master/release-notes/version-4.9.4.html#bugs-fixed
>>>>>
>>>>> As to back ground threads, mod_wsgi has a couple of background threads 
>>>>> which check for idle activity, deadlocks and things, but they touch so 
>>>>> little they have never caused issues in the past. Beyond that, the 
>>>>> request 
>>>>> handler threads themselves should be stuck on a select loop if no 
>>>>> requests 
>>>>> are happening.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26 Oct 2022, at 1:12 pm, stuart mcgraw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, thanks for those suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>> The OOM killer seems not to be an issue.  I've been told there are no 
>>>>> signs of it in the system logs and no signs of memory problems via 
>>>>> monitoring during nomal operations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nor did "WSGIDestroyInterpreter Off" have any effect, the segfaults 
>>>>> are still occurring after that was added and Apache restarted.
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of how mod_wsgi works is pretty sketchy.  IIUC you 
>>>>> are saying that the mod_wsgi processes are sitting there, waiting on a 
>>>>> select() call or the like, to receive a request from the mod_wsgi code 
>>>>> within Apache; and in that state they cannot simply spontaneously crash 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> it must be that either that the process received request from Apache (via 
>>>>> the mod_wsgi module) or there is some independent thread running in the 
>>>>> Python part of the mod_wsgi process (which is running my wsgi app) that 
>>>>> is 
>>>>> causing the crash?
>>>>>
>>>>> I based my claim that there were no requests coincidental with the 
>>>>> segfaults based on the lack of log messages within a second or two for 
>>>>> some 
>>>>> of the segfaults.  (Its a moderately busy server so of course there were 
>>>>> also some close in time but for seemingly unrelated pages: eg, python, 
>>>>> php 
>>>>> or c cgi, or html.)  Is it possible that the mod_wsgi processes are 
>>>>> getting 
>>>>> woken up by something that does not produce an apache access log entry?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still working on the python thread hypothesis (this is a 
>>>>> production server so changes aren't easy.)
>>>>> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:12:02 PM UTC-6 Graham Dumpleton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> How much memory do the processes use? Maybe the system OOM process 
>>>>>> killer is killing the processes as they consume lots of memory and the 
>>>>>> system thinks it is running low. There were some potential problems 
>>>>>> introduced with Python 3.9 with how process are shutdown and that causes 
>>>>>> embedded systems to fail on shutdown.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://modwsgi.readthedocs.io/en/master/release-notes/version-4.9.1.html#features-changed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can try setting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WSGIDestroyInterpreter Off
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as mentioned in those change notes and see if it goes away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other than that, if you are confident that no new requests are 
>>>>>> arriving, can only suggest you work out if there are background threads 
>>>>>> running in Python.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can do that be adding code as described in:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://modwsgi.readthedocs.io/en/master/user-guides/debugging-techniques.html#extracting-python-stack-traces
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and triggering a dump of running threads by touching a file in the 
>>>>>> file system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It might also be helpful if you can work out how to have the system 
>>>>>> preserve core dumps from Apache so they can be used to extract a true 
>>>>>> process stack trace as that may give a clue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24 Oct 2022, at 3:51 am, stuart mcgraw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for that suggestion.  I passed it on to the site admin made 
>>>>>> and he made the "application-group=%{GLOBAL}" change, but unfortunately 
>>>>>> it 
>>>>>> made no difference, the segfaults are still occurring as before.  Is 
>>>>>> there 
>>>>>> anything else I can look at?  The current configuration is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WSGIDaemonProcess jmwsgi processes=2 threads=10 \
>>>>>>     display-name=apache2-jmwsgi locale=en_US.UTF-8 lang=en_US.UTF-8
>>>>>> WSGIScriptAlias /jmwsgi 
>>>>>> /usr/local/apache2/jmdictdb/wsgifiles/jmdictdb.wsgi \
>>>>>>     process-group=jmwsgi application-group=%{GLOBAL}
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would changing to "process=N threads=1" or "processes=1 threads=N" 
>>>>>> provide any useful info?  Apache, mod_wsgi and the other web server 
>>>>>> components were all built there (ie, they are not from distro-supplied 
>>>>>> packages.)  Are the symptoms consistent with a mismatched library or 
>>>>>> some 
>>>>>> other build configuration issue?  Or conversely, maybe they make that 
>>>>>> unlikely? 
>>>>>> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 11:48:51 PM UTC-6 Graham Dumpleton 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Try changing it to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WSGIScriptAlias /jmwsgi 
>>>>>>> /usr/local/apache2/jmdictdb/wsgifiles/jmdictdb.wsgi \
>>>>>>>       process-group=jmwsgi application-group=%{GLOBAL}
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are possibly using a third party Python module which isn't 
>>>>>>> designed to work in Python sub interpreters. That application group 
>>>>>>> value 
>>>>>>> forces the main Python interpreter context to be used, which can avoid 
>>>>>>> problems with crashes, or thread deadlocks when such broken modules are 
>>>>>>> used.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://modwsgi.readthedocs.io/en/master/user-guides/application-issues.html#python-simplified-gil-state-api
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That option on WSGIScriptAlias has same affect as 
>>>>>>> WSGIAplicationGroup but is more specific. For same reason, your use of 
>>>>>>> WSGIProcessGroup is redundant as process group setting on 
>>>>>>> WSGIScriptAlias 
>>>>>>> takes precedence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22 Oct 2022, at 2:35 pm, stuart mcgraw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My apologies for the delayed response, I thought I had my google 
>>>>>>> email forwarded to my main email account but... :-(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My intent was that the processes run in daemon mode.  I had missed 
>>>>>>> the info about the WSGIRestrictEmbedded directive when I went through 
>>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>> doc, I'll ask the admin there to add that.  The full configuration for 
>>>>>>> wsgi 
>>>>>>> is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   WSGIDaemonProcess jmwsgi processes=2 threads=10 \
>>>>>>>       display-name=apache2-jmwsgi locale=en_US.UTF-8 lang=en_US.UTF-8
>>>>>>>   WSGIProcessGroup jmwsgi
>>>>>>>   WSGIScriptAlias /jmwsgi 
>>>>>>> /usr/local/apache2/jmdictdb/wsgifiles/jmdictdb.wsgi \
>>>>>>>       process-group=jmwsgi
>>>>>>>     # Serve static files directly without using the app.
>>>>>>>   Alias /jmwsgi/web/ /usr/local/apache2/jmdictdb/
>>>>>>>   <Directory /usr/local/apache2/jmdictdb>
>>>>>>>       DirectoryIndex disabled
>>>>>>>       Require all granted
>>>>>>>       </Directory>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The server has a number of virtual hosts and there were a few 
>>>>>>> mod_wsgi "Loading Python" messages in the error log for one of them 
>>>>>>> (for 
>>>>>>> ssl) but nothing looking errorish and only a few, nowhere near the 
>>>>>>> number 
>>>>>>> of segfault messages:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   [Sat Oct 01 07:50:12.090697 2022] [wsgi:info] [pid 731154:tid 
>>>>>>> 140442461062912] [remote *.*.*.*:40566] mod_wsgi (pid=731154, 
>>>>>>> process='jmwsgi', application='www.edrdg.org|/jmwsgi'): Loading 
>>>>>>> Python script file 
>>>>>>> '/usr/local/apache2/jmdictdb/wsgifiles/jmdictdb.wsgi'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the wsgi configuration stuff is outside all the virtutal hosts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the server starts, there are a couple messages in the main 
>>>>>>> error log file like:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   [Sat Oct 01 06:42:26.499086 2022] [wsgi:info] [pid 731041:tid 
>>>>>>> 140442622753728] mod_wsgi (pid=731041): Starting process 'jmwsgi' with 
>>>>>>> uid=33, gid=33 and threads=10.
>>>>>>>   [Sat Oct 01 06:42:26.499518 2022] [wsgi:info] [pid 731039:tid 
>>>>>>> 140442622753728] mod_wsgi (pid=731039): Starting process 'jmwsgi' with 
>>>>>>> uid=33, gid=33 and threads=10.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and these are followed/interleaved with the "Initializing Python" 
>>>>>>> and "Attach interpreter" messages but after server startup the messages 
>>>>>>> are 
>>>>>>> limited to the sets of three I showed: "Initializing Python" and 
>>>>>>> "Attach 
>>>>>>> interpreter" followed sometime later by the Segmentation fault.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does any of that help?
>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 16, 2022 at 4:16:09 PM UTC-6 Graham Dumpleton 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other mod_wsgi configuration is there besides 
>>>>>>>> the WSGIDaemonProcess directive? That alone only creates a mod_wsgi 
>>>>>>>> daemon 
>>>>>>>> process group, but does not tell mod_wsgi to use it. Thus cannot tell 
>>>>>>>> whether you are using embedded mode or daemon mode. The logs are also 
>>>>>>>> odd 
>>>>>>>> in that would expect to see other messages in there around when 
>>>>>>>> processes 
>>>>>>>> are created if using daemon mode, plus an indication of whether a 
>>>>>>>> message 
>>>>>>>> is being generated from an Apache child process or mod_wsgi daemon 
>>>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So can you supply the other parts of the mod_wsgi configuration so 
>>>>>>>> can see if properly using daemon mode or not. Also look for logs from 
>>>>>>>> mod_wsgi in any per virtual host specific error log file and not just 
>>>>>>>> main 
>>>>>>>> Apache error log if you separate them. Finally, if you are only 
>>>>>>>> intending 
>>>>>>>> to use mod_wsgi daemon mode, ensure you add the directive:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     WSGIRestrictEmbedded On
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> outside of all VirtualHost definitions so that any attempt to 
>>>>>>>> intitialise/use Python in main Apache child processes is disabled.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 17 Oct 2022, at 8:07 am, stuart mcgraw <[email protected]> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am author of a Flask application running under Linux/Apache 
>>>>>>>> mod_wsgi that is experiencing intermittent, random segmentation 
>>>>>>>> faults.  
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is unusual is that the mod_wsgi process segfaults are 
>>>>>>>> occurring not at startup when mod_wsgi is loaded, or at when an 
>>>>>>>> incoming 
>>>>>>>> request accesses the app, but when the wsgi processes are just sitting 
>>>>>>>> there, quiescent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From a user's point of view, everything looks fine, the mod_wsgi 
>>>>>>>> processes and the app respond with the right results with no sign of 
>>>>>>>> trouble at the client's browser.  But looking at the Apache logs shows 
>>>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>>> wsgi processes periodically segfaulting and getting restarted with no 
>>>>>>>> correlated incoming requests.  They die sometimes after running for a 
>>>>>>>> few 
>>>>>>>> minutes, sometimes after a few hours.  There are no incoming requests 
>>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>>> the the wsgi app logged near the time of these crashes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>> [Mon May 30 22:35:43.040387 2022] [wsgi:info] [pid 2575903:tid 
>>>>>>>> 139929303559104] mod_wsgi (pid=2575903): Initializing Python.
>>>>>>>> [Mon May 30 22:35:43.099053 2022] [wsgi:info] [pid 2575903:tid 
>>>>>>>> 139929303559104] mod_wsgi (pid=2575903): Attach interpreter ''.
>>>>>>>> [Tue May 31 01:29:06.434000 2022] [core:notice] [pid 2876203:tid 
>>>>>>>> 139929303559104] AH00052: child pid 2511562 exit signal Segmentation 
>>>>>>>> fault 
>>>>>>>> (11)
>>>>>>>> [Tue May 31 01:29:07.466268 2022] [wsgi:info] [pid 2605661:tid 
>>>>>>>> 139929303559104] mod_wsgi (pid=2605661): Initializing Python.
>>>>>>>> [Tue May 31 01:29:07.517413 2022] [wsgi:info] [pid 2605661:tid 
>>>>>>>> 139929303559104] mod_wsgi (pid=2605661): Attach interpreter ''.
>>>>>>>> [Tue May 31 04:14:59.405491 2022] [core:notice] [pid 2876203:tid 
>>>>>>>> 139929303559104] AH00052: child pid 2575903 exit signal Segmentation 
>>>>>>>> fault 
>>>>>>>> (11)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wsgi app is still being tested so other than infrequent requests 
>>>>>>>> generated by me and a few other people there is very little traffic to 
>>>>>>>> it.  
>>>>>>>> However the web server itself is handling some continuous moderate 
>>>>>>>> volume 
>>>>>>>> of traffic to other apps including to C, Python and PHP CGI apps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I know about the environment (if any other info would be 
>>>>>>>> useful I'll try and dig it up):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> $ cat /etc/*release
>>>>>>>> PRETTY_NAME="Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apache, mod_wsgi, python were all built from source by the site's 
>>>>>>>> administrator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are (at least) two Python's on the system:
>>>>>>>>  /usr/bin/python3 -- 3.9.2
>>>>>>>>  /usr/local/bin/python3 -- 3.10.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apachche/mod_wsgi is was supposedly built against python-3.10.  From
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> the http server header:
>>>>>>>>   Apache/2.4.54 (Unix) OpenSSL/1.1.1n mod_wsgi/4.9.4 Python/3.10 
>>>>>>>> PHP/7.4.23
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Apache .conf file uses:
>>>>>>>>   WSGIDaemonProcess myapp processes=2 threads=10 \
>>>>>>>>     display-name=apache2-myapp locale=en_US.UTF-8 lang=en_US.UTF-8
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> $ /usr/local/apache2/bin/httpd -V
>>>>>>>> Server version: Apache/2.4.54 (Unix)
>>>>>>>> Server built:   Oct 13 2022 00:07:38
>>>>>>>> Server's Module Magic Number: 20120211:124
>>>>>>>> Server loaded:  APR 1.6.5, APR-UTIL 1.6.1, PCRE 10.36 2020-12-04
>>>>>>>> Compiled using: APR 1.6.5, APR-UTIL 1.6.1, PCRE 10.36 2020-12-04
>>>>>>>> Architecture:   64-bit
>>>>>>>> Server MPM:     event
>>>>>>>>   threaded:     yes (fixed thread count)
>>>>>>>>     forked:     yes (variable process count)
>>>>>>>> Server compiled with....
>>>>>>>>  -D APR_HAS_SENDFILE
>>>>>>>>  -D APR_HAS_MMAP
>>>>>>>>  -D APR_HAVE_IPV6 (IPv4-mapped addresses enabled)
>>>>>>>>  -D APR_USE_SYSVSEM_SERIALIZE
>>>>>>>>  -D APR_USE_PTHREAD_SERIALIZE
>>>>>>>>  -D SINGLE_LISTEN_UNSERIALIZED_ACCEPT
>>>>>>>>  -D APR_HAS_OTHER_CHILD
>>>>>>>>  -D AP_HAVE_RELIABLE_PIPED_LOGS
>>>>>>>>  -D DYNAMIC_MODULE_LIMIT=256
>>>>>>>>  -D HTTPD_ROOT="/usr/local/apache2"
>>>>>>>>  -D SUEXEC_BIN="/usr/local/apache2/bin/suexec"
>>>>>>>>  -D DEFAULT_PIDLOG="logs/httpd.pid"
>>>>>>>>  -D DEFAULT_SCOREBOARD="logs/apache_runtime_status"
>>>>>>>>  -D DEFAULT_ERRORLOG="logs/error_log"
>>>>>>>>  -D AP_TYPES_CONFIG_FILE="conf/mime.types"
>>>>>>>>  -D SERVER_CONFIG_FILE="conf/httpd.conf"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> $ bin/httpd -M
>>>>>>>> Loaded Modules:
>>>>>>>>  core_module (static)
>>>>>>>>  so_module (static)
>>>>>>>>  http_module (static)
>>>>>>>>  mpm_event_module (static)
>>>>>>>>  authz_core_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  authz_host_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  unixd_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  dir_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  access_compat_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  env_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  alias_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  log_config_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  ssl_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  mime_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  socache_shmcb_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  setenvif_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  cgid_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  userdir_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  headers_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  rewrite_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  autoindex_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  negotiation_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  dav_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  deflate_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  info_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  status_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  wsgi_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  evasive24_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>  php7_module (shared)
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>  
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