Hi, I've tried hitting the unsubscribe link on this mailing list a number of time, and it hasn't worked.
Can you please remove me from this mailing list? Mark On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 9:08 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Send melbourne-pug mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of melbourne-pug digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Agile (Brian May) > 2. Re: Agile (Ben Finney) > 3. Re: Agile (Brian May) > 4. Re: Agile (Kiran Busi) > 5. Re: Agile (Aidan Lister) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:53:35 +1100 > From: Brian May <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain > > Hello All, > > I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the > following explanation: > > "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for > technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more > hands on experience working in an agile team environment. > > I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this > might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job > search. > > However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience > "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am > unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision) > I haven't had the "hands on experience". > > i.e. in Python that would be: > > class Experience(object): > ... > > def get_job(experience): > required_experience = ???? > experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience, > required_experience) > while True: > try: > job = apply_for_job(experience) > ... > attend_interview(job, experience) > ... > return job > except ApplicationRejected: > pass > > > def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience): > while experience < required_experience: > job = get_job(experience) > goto_work(job) > experience = experience + perform_job(job) > return experience > > > if __name__ == "__main__": > experience = Experience() > while True: > job = get_job(experience) > try: > while True: > goto_work(job) > experience = experience + perform_job(job) > goto_home() > goto_bed() > except LostJob: > pass > > > Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think > stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code? > > (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can > have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also > several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job > actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob > exception) > > Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such > as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor > is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated > open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles > of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal > development team. > > I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about > convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile > team environment"? > > Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however > I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge. > > Thanks. > -- > Brian May <[email protected]> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:22:46 +1100 > From: Ben Finney <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Brian May <[email protected]> writes: > > > I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about > > convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal > > "Agile team environment"? > > If they already have a requirement that you have experience working in a > team practicing agile methodology, then I think only the actual > experience would cut the mustard. > > What I think such an employer would expect is: you've done it at a > previous role where that *wasn't* a prior requirement to get the role. > > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then, > you'll have the experience for the next role. > > In other words, the employer wants to benefit from some other > organisation having already invested in your learning and experience. > > > Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however > > I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge. > > You're right, I believe. It is a problem: employers tend to want to be > the beneficiary of, but not invest in, education and training of > incoming employees. > > -- > \ ?Now Maggie, I?ll be watching you too, in case God is busy | > `\ creating tornadoes or not existing.? ?Homer, _The Simpsons_ | > _o__) | > Ben Finney > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:56:55 +1100 > From: Brian May <[email protected]> > To: Ben Finney <[email protected]>, [email protected] > Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Ben Finney <[email protected]> writes: > > > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some > > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior > > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then, > > you'll have the experience for the next role. > > Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to > invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which > was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle. > > My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions > that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big > companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much > advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these > details. > -- > Brian May <[email protected]> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:14:19 +1100 > From: Kiran Busi <[email protected]> > To: Melbourne Python Users Group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile > Message-ID: > < > cagcz+8ogyc-6pg9v8q-uzfrgcdy7uptv68hsggzh7g4vquf...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Agile is really another way to get stuff done, organising a large body of > work into regular deliverables. > > Why not implement a version of agile in your org you're currently working > in now. Keep the agile principle but modify the process to suit your org > size. > Then next interview you can say "yes" and talk about how you modified it to > xyz and why it made sense to do so. > > If you're a good dev who can ship code, and can show it an org shouldn't > turn you away because you haven't done agile. At least it should not be the > make it it break it decision. > > > On Saturday, 30 January 2016, Brian May <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Ben Finney <[email protected] <javascript:;>> writes: > > > > > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some > > > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior > > > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then, > > > you'll have the experience for the next role. > > > > Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to > > invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which > > was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle. > > > > My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions > > that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big > > companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much > > advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these > > details. > > -- > > Brian May <[email protected] <javascript:;>> > > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/ > > _______________________________________________ > > melbourne-pug mailing list > > [email protected] <javascript:;> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/melbourne-pug/attachments/20160130/252790ad/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:18:57 +0000 > From: Aidan Lister <[email protected]> > To: Melbourne Python Users Group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile > Message-ID: > <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Send me your resume or GitHub! Any developer worth their chops is going to > slot into an agile workplace in a heartbeat. People over process, we are > just looking for great devs! > > Your reflection sounds like a short sighted HR level decision, unless you > were going for a team lead role where you'd be expected to drive the agile > processes? > > > On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:59 PM, Brian May <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > > I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the > > following explanation: > > > > "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for > > technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more > > hands on experience working in an agile team environment. > > > > I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this > > might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job > > search. > > > > However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience > > "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am > > unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision) > > I haven't had the "hands on experience". > > > > i.e. in Python that would be: > > > > class Experience(object): > > ... > > > > def get_job(experience): > > required_experience = ???? > > experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience, > > required_experience) > > while True: > > try: > > job = apply_for_job(experience) > > ... > > attend_interview(job, experience) > > ... > > return job > > except ApplicationRejected: > > pass > > > > > > def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience): > > while experience < required_experience: > > job = get_job(experience) > > goto_work(job) > > experience = experience + perform_job(job) > > return experience > > > > > > if __name__ == "__main__": > > experience = Experience() > > while True: > > job = get_job(experience) > > try: > > while True: > > goto_work(job) > > experience = experience + perform_job(job) > > goto_home() > > goto_bed() > > except LostJob: > > pass > > > > > > Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think > > stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code? > > > > (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can > > have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also > > several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job > > actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob > > exception) > > > > Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such > > as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor > > is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated > > open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles > > of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal > > development team. > > > > I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about > > convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile > > team environment"? > > > > Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however > > I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge. > > > > Thanks. > > -- > > Brian May <[email protected]> > > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/ > > _______________________________________________ > > melbourne-pug mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/melbourne-pug/attachments/20160130/46f3ef60/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > melbourne-pug mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug > > > ------------------------------ > > End of melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13 > ********************************************** >
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