> On Mar 3, 2026, at 11:24 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <[email protected]> wrote:
>> My problem is that messages that recipients unwittingly never
>> receive rarely generate any complaints at all, so my lack of
>> complaints may actually be a bad sign.
>
> It's easy enough to check by getting a freemail account and
> subscribing it. It's not a 100% reliable check but it will help
> diagnose a lot of common problems where mail is arriving at the remote
> address, and some where it doesn't.
I already maintain such an account. I already know it's failing to get
"administrative" mail. But it hasn't been useful to inspect the contents of the
mail it's failing to get.
>> but I have thought of no way to capture and examine the copies of
>> those messages that went out to remote users and got rejected.
>
> A message that
> is *rejected* results either in a message being returned to sender (a
> DSN = delivery status notice, which sometimes contains the original
> message) or an entry in the sending MTA's log that the message was
> rejected, whether the rejection was temporary or permanent, and
> usually a code indicating why it was rejected.
In my original posting, I included an image of the rejection and message from
the log -- it was there when I left but has apparently disappeared since. Let
me repost it here:
> In your Mailman configuration, it will say what host and port Mailman
> is sending email to. The default is localhost:25, which is probably
> the right thing. Do you have access to the MTA logs on that host?
I'm sure I do, once I determine where in the hierarchy they are stored on my
configuration. (I usually merely use the WHM Mail Delivery Reports tool to scan
them for specific anomalies.)
> As for capturing messages "on the way out", this is actually easy
> enough to do if you have control of the MTA that Mailman communicates
> with. There are several ways to do it. But your problem can probably
> be diagnosed and fixed without that.
>
>> Well, sure, I was under the impression I had [Configured All The
>> Things]. There is no cross-server activity going on at my end.
>
> What do you mean by "no cross-server activity"? If you mean
> "server.wickenburg.us should not be involved", you're wrong: the PTR
> for firearmspolitics.info's IP address goes there, and
> firearmspolitics.info's SMTP server says the same.
I mean at the gross physical... uh, virtual level. They are all the same VM. I
don't have any of this "host A's IP address has to have permission to send mail
for host B" as there is only one host and one address.
> ... are you sending HTML-only mail? This list converts that to plain
> text, I guess that's where all the URLs in <> are coming from.
Apple Mail "helpfully" makes links out of what it perceives to be domain
names...
>> in firearmspolitics.info's, which I was told to add to help solve
>> the original alignment problem with user-to-community message
>> forwarding.
>
> It shouldn't help at all, since all it does is repeat the information
> in firearmspolitics.info's TXT record. You're not getting good
> advice.
>
> WARNING:
> You say ypu are using cPanel's Mailman 2.2. This version was
> completely rewritten by cPanel to port from Python 2 to Python 3, and
> includes a fair number of cPanel proprietary hacks. We do not have
> access to the source code (unless they've published it recently, which
> seems unlikely since they think their hacks are value-add they can
> monetize). None of what I write from here on can be relied on for
> that reason, and because to date cPanel Mailman 2.2 has been rife with
> bugs. That disclaimer out of the way, here are some guesses.
>
>> I think what helps complicate this is various hidden,
>> unconfigurable cruft in the bowels of mailman...
>
> It's not hidden, and it's only partially unconfigurable.
The mailman service was provided deus ex machina by the hosting provider. The
only "configuration" I have ever done to it is via the administrative screens
-- setting up member lists, "reflect back your own posts" behavior, welcome
messages, that sort of thing. So let's say, "for small values of
configuration." Actual "configuration files" for mailman are deeper than I have
yet been. (In case it's not already obvious, I'm at best a shade-tree systems
administrator.)
>> such as the fact that these automatic messages are being generated
>> by "[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>".
>
> Is that the "From" address in the mail header? That doesn't seem
> right, because that's the reply address used if you want to contact
> the human responsible for the site. Replies to "-bounces" addresses
> are handled internally by Mailman, and recorded as problems with the
> intended recipient of the automatic message that caused the bounce.
It is what I see from the image above.
> The "server.wickenburg.us" part is happening because the host name for
> your list(s) has not been configured, and I guess cPanel's
> configuration process configured "server" as default.
>
> In a stock Mailman 2, there is a requirement (later regretted after
> experience) that there be a "site list" by default named "mailman" at
> the main list host. IIRC the rationale was that this would be a last
> resort address for communication among administrators, but it was
> rarely used. It still appears in rare contexts where Mailman 2 cannot
> figure out who is a better sender address. The "-bounces" part in the
> envelope sender is the standard way to avoid getting non-delivery
> notifications sent to everyone on a mailing list.
>
>> This is no user I have defined -- had I defined it, I would have
>> put it under firearmspolitics.info <http://firearmspolitics.info/>,
>> not the unrelated main server name. I can't help but suspect this
>> may be playing some part in my predicament.
>
> Undoubtedly it is playing a role. Possibly these messages are being
> rejected because server.wickenburg.us has a DMARC p=reject policy.
> Because of the legacy nature of the "mailman" list, I don't know where
> its rejects would go, it depends on how it was configured.
>
> Do you have settings for
>
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST =
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST =
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN =
>
> in mm_cfg.py? (If not check in Defaults.py.)
The former has nothing other than an import of Defaults. The latter has this
explanation and code:
# If you don't need to change DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST in your
# mm_cfg.py, then you're done; the default mapping is added automatically. If
# however you change either variable in your mm_cfg.py, then be sure to also
# include the following:
#
# add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
#
# because otherwise the default mappings won't be correct.
# Our hostnames. We'll get them live from the host, instead of
# hard-coding them.
from socket import *
try:
fqdn = getfqdn()
except:
fqdn = 'Defaults_has_unknown_host_domains'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = fqdn
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = fqdn
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
> If the domain in the
> first two is not "firearmspolitics.info", change it to that (except
> that the existing DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN is probably OK). Do this in
> mm_cfg.py even if there is an existing setting in Defaults.py.
> Defaults.py will be overwritten on upgrades, but they never touch
> mm_cfg.py (in stock Mailman 2, I can't swear for cPanel since they try
> to save you from some of that effort, they might mess with mm_cfg.py).
> Do all such manual configuration in mm_cfg.py.
>
> Oops, forgot to check: Is Mailman serving other virtual domains hosted
> on that server? If so, you should not change the DEFAULT_* settings
> mentioned above without careful consideration. Instead you may want
> to set up the firearmspolitics.info domain as a virtual domain in
> mm_cfg.py. See the comments above those settings in Defaults.py.
This is the only mailman service running on the VM and I have absolutely no
plans to ever add another (not even PRIOR to this week).
I made these changes, then rebooted and sent a message to the list from the
listowner's email address. It was accepted, but went nowhere. The mail logs
don't even show attempted delivery to anybody.
I then sent mail to the list from an unsubscribed ID. I got a rejection back
from the proper domain name, and the mail logs agree.
I then sent mail to the list from my subscribed personal ID. I received it, and
the mail logs show it successfully distributed to everybody else.
Just to check, I repeated the experiment from the listowner's address, and got
the same lack of results. If this is the only remaining problem, I can live
with it if I have to.
I believe I have still not tested for the exact problem I came here to solve,
because I don't know any way to force mailman to initiate mail unbidden. I have
been relying on the monthly "here's your password" mail to inspect the problem,
but that's a long time between happening. Can you suggest to me an easy way to
force mailman to issue such mail?
Thank you kindly for your help.------------------------------------------------------
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