Present: Sahil, Jonathan, Eyal, Ted, Dhantel, John, Heiko Comments: Regina, Stuart
Tickets/Topics * show outlines around selected objects like shapes, charts etc + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168562 + View > Boundaries should work for all objects incl. images, charts, shapes and not just for tables, frames and math-objects (Regina, Stuart) + marching ants are an indicator for copied objects (Heiko) + if the object has a border itself the selection might not be obvious (Heiko) + marching-ants-like frame just looks nicer; but not proposing animation, only a static frame (Sahil) + MSO connects the eight-dots with a straight frame (Heiko), OnlyOffice does too (Eyal) + no strong argument against the change, neither for it other than design (Eyal, Ted) + should be active depending on the boundaries option (Heiko) => do it * The default table pseudo-style should be master-slide-specific rather than template-global + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168592 + agree, styles should behave like styles (Heiko) + We currently have a default choice of one of the table pseudo-styles, which is the same for tables inserted on slides regardless of their master (Eyal) + The request is to keep for each master, a choice among the available table pseudo-styles; the request is orthogonal to whether or not the pseudo-styles are stored with the documents or not (Eyal) + For the long-term, would like a deep revamp of the table pseudo-style mechanism, and to have proper table styles (as per bug 151264), while this is a minor adjustment for the current state of affairs, hopefully requiring little effort (Eyal) + feels short-sighted to me; misses the point of storing/sharing TS, handling TS like any other style, and would be incompatible (Heiko) => comment * Extrinsic vs intrinsic paragraph direction (Eyal) + https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2025/msg00088.html + DF RTL followed by "Clear DF" retains RTLness, aligns left + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168537 + "Clear Direct Formatting" clears RTL directionality + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40496 + Switching paragraph styles removes explicit text direction choice + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58070 + Auto-detect paragraph directions when they were not set explicitly + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162120 + Philosophically, the writing direction is _sometimes_ a property of the text itself, or implicit in it; but - not in every scenario and not for every written language. (Eyal) + in CJK, text direction is a formatting choice, but in RTL, text direction is a semantic property of the paragraph (Jonathan) + There are two "extreme" or pure approaches to this matter: Direction only from the text via auto-detection, with no override; or direction only via formatting/styling, ignoring the content completely. The second extreme approach is essentially the current approach of LibreOffice and of ODF. (Eyal) + Users have at least two interests not satisfied by our current approach: (Eyal) + The desire to avoid manually setting directions for text being pasted or imported from text(-ish) files.txt + The desire to avoid replicating styles, with the "same" styles needed both for RTL and LTR text + auto-detection as defined by Unicode vs. formatting as LibreOffice does + missing a use case for either of options (Heiko) + A related issue is the treatment of language as a property of the character style, which is currently what LibreOffice does, and that is wrong (Jonathan, Eyal) + Three suggestions for addressing user interests in auto-detection: + More far-reaching: Add another (horizontal) direction option for paragraphs: 'automatic', in addition to 'inherit', 'ltr', 'rtl'. It will be used by default for imported text files and perhaps for multi-paragrph stretches of important text. This will require a minor ODF change (Eyal, Jonathan) + ... with a single detection logic, as mandated by Unicode (Jonathan) + ... with several, or flexible, detection logics, as the Unicode detection logic is too simplistic (Eyal) + Less far-reaching: Add a command for applying auto-detection logic to paragraphs, and apply 'rtl' or 'ltr' to them (as DF). auto-detection not "remembered" in the saved document (Heiko). + Changing the ODF standard would need consensus (Heiko) + Can always ask the ODF TC what they think (Jonathan) + re: vertical (CJK, Mongolian script), I don't think any changes are needed (Jonathan) + we have detection algorithms built-in for the language (Heiko) => no objection to the proposal
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