Susan I think the distinction between needle lace and embroidery is quite clear, at least in my own mind. But I am thinking of the structure of the finished object, and the working methods while it was under construction. If there is any background woven fabric still existing in the piece, it is embroidery. The woven fabric forms the substrate, the ground, which holds the thing together. True needle lace requires the construction of a temporary scaffolding, in the form of the needle lace sandwich. Now, knotted Mediterranean needle laces, both Turkish/Armenian and puncetto, don't have the sandwich or any temporary scaffolding, but they are definitely "stitches in the air".
There are several forms of embroidery which use the same filling stitches used in geometric needle lace: reticella embroidery, all forms of rectangular cutwork (including Cilaos), Hardanger, and even filet lacis (square knotted netting decorated with embroidery). So in my thinking if woven fabric persists in the object as the structural framework, it is embroidery. If there is no woven fabric, it is needle lace. The really difficult one if filet lacis. The very same fillings are used in that form as in geometric cutwork. But the permanent grounding is hand knotted square mesh. There is also a problem with sol laces. Again, the decorations used may be the same as in drawn thread embroidery, or much more elaborate. There is a scaffolding, but it is hand made. Lorelei Subject: [lace] Cilaos needle lace "how & when do we distinguish between needle lace & lace-like embroidery?" Susan Hottle USA - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
