That is kind of pretty. The question is whether my goals will be possible to integrate from the 360 degree angle I want to have.
-----Original Message----- From: Tom Kingston [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 2:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: an idea, but how to go about it when I get there? Well, then there's your goal, already defined; getting the functionality you need so you can get the job done. So I vote for an elegant yet clean and intuitive interface. Personally? I like a deep rich blue on an ivory background. It's classy looking. smile. Good luck, Tom On 12/11/2011 1:59 PM, Katherine Moss wrote: > My priority right now is getting enough C# knowledge to write an internal > application used by myself and my other administrators for our web site to > help with integration and stuff. (we are just a community who could use some > streamlining, and we aren't business focused). > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Kingston [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:45 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: an idea, but how to go about it when I get there? > > Of course, that's true. I didn't mean to paint it in a pure black and white > picture. Nothing is that simple. But how pretty the interface is is heavily > dependent on the applications purpose and its market demographics, i.e. if > you're going to write a graphics design program than sure, looks is what the > user of such a program is all about. So it stands to reason that they think > it should be a work of art. And I don't blame them. And sure, if you want to > be the next IPad everything better be, as my kids used to say, super sool. > I've heard very few, if any, complaints, from people, about how pretty a > program was. But people complain all the time about things not being > intuitive, too much junk cluttering the screen, everything is hard to find, > and so on. Sometimes less is more. > > And regarding reviews? Well, again, it depends on the product, its target > market, and the reviewer's need to feel like they're giving you something > worth while. But that's a two way street. I've heard reviewer's say how > refreshing such a nice clean and simple interface is. > I guess the bottom line is to define your market, do the required research, > and find out what's more important to them; eye-candy or functionality. Of > course, this is true with everything. Some folks want the best looking things > while others want the best functioning things. > It's an age old split between companies whose top priority is sales and those > whose top priority is quality. But this is really getting beyond designing an > interface. I'm going a bit overboard here. But I was just reminded of it > recently so it popped into my head. So I guess that's enough of corporate > morals for today. grin. > > Regards, > Tom > > > On 12/11/2011 11:40 AM, Katherine Moss wrote: >> I just always thought it mattered because people tell me that it does. I >> watch youtube videos of reviews of products, and if the interface isn't >> pretty, the reviewer usually has something to say about itit. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Kingston [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 2:56 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: an idea, but how to go about it when I get there? >> >> Regarding custom controls? Slow down for a minute and think about what a >> screen reader is and what a custom control is. How is any screen-reader >> supposed to figure out what kind of control that you and every other >> programmer on the planet decides to put together? And believe me, I've been >> at this for years. Many IDEs on steroids like Visual Studio create custom >> controls by default and the programmer isn't even aware of it. >> It's part of the, don't worry about it, I'll do lots of the work for you >> philosophy of these rapid development cycle machines and why you pay so much >> for them. >> >> And lastly, out of curiosity, several years ago I created a few windows, >> particularly dialogs, with all kinds of controls to mimic an inaccessible >> one in a program, after I figured out what they were. I used standard >> controls and simply matched the colors. So Window-Eyes recognized everything >> in those windows. Then I asked my sighted wife to compare the two and tell >> me what was so custom and flashy about the inaccessible ones I had mimicked. >> She was very hard pressed to see much of a difference at all. I mean she was >> literally just guessing and saying something like, eh, well, I guess that >> one's a little kind of sort of different. But it really just looks like the >> same thing to me. >> This is because a lot of these IDEs alter standard controls just enough to >> give it their own look and they're the only ones who know the difference. >> It's part of the crazy world of Windows; they're going against one of the >> core concepts of what Windows was supposed to be. And Microsoft has long >> been one of the biggest offenders; they write the standards and then ignore >> their own standards. So 90% of the time these custom controls have no >> impact. Ask your sighted friends how many of them visually audition a >> program before purchasing it, and how many times it has been the deciding >> factor on which program they purchased. >> >> Regards, >> Tom >> >> >> On 12/10/2011 10:41 PM, Katherine Moss wrote: >> > I'm confused. Aren't MSAA and UIA two completely different frameworks? >> > And the limit of only supporting standard controls is indeed >> something> interesting since I'm getting towards GUI programming, and what >> if I> want to use other controls that I learn to create myself? I mean, >> many> of the books which I have for .net programming in C#, have sections >> for> creating custom controls, so am I going to have to skip an entire> >> section of a book or two just because screen readers are behind? That> >> seems quite nonproductive. And the way I found that transcript was> >> through a search on the main GW micro site for Visual Studio 2010. >> > >> > *From:*Chip Orange [mailto:[email protected]]> *Sent:* >> Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:56 PM> *To:* [email protected]> >> *Subject:* RE: an idea, but how to go about it when I get there? >> > >> > I would be interested in reading the transcript if you could point me >> at it? >> > >> > This is why I said I was guessing, for all I know it does work. If >> it> doesn't work entirely though, it might be because of the introduction >> of> new control types (which produce UIA information, but which need> >> additional code to take advantage of this), or because of bugs in the MS> >> implementation of UIA (which is brand new). If the "they" in your> message >> means MS, they may indeed think this means it's working, and not> know of >> the bugs, or not take into consideration the additional work> needed to be >> done by screen readers to support new controls or other new> features. >> > >> > I know it will eventually work (if it's not now), and this is indeed> >> what SMAs pay for. >> > >> > Chip >> > >> > *From:*Katherine Moss [mailto:[email protected]] >> > <mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> >> > *Sent:* Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:03 PM >> > *To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > *Subject:* RE: an idea, but how to go about it when I get there? >> > >> > The strange thing though is that they have a podcast over there (I >> > was reading the transcript of it), that shows this very thing. I >> > don't get it then because if they showed it working properly, then >> > doesn't that mean that it is supported fully? And if so, then why >> > are we having so much trouble with it? (it would be nice if WE was >> > closer with the .net framework than with com since .net is newer >> > than Com, you know?) >> > >> > *From:*Chip Orange [mailto:[email protected]] >> > <mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> >> > *Sent:* Saturday, December 10, 2011 6:44 PM >> > *To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > *Subject:* RE: an idea, but how to go about it when I get there? >> > >> > I wish I knew; I was hoping to get an answer from GW on this when >> > you first asked the question. >> > >> > I suspect it "sort of" works, but not in every case; not with >> every >> > control type (just guessing from my experience with Office 2010, >> > which I suspect was written using WPF). >> > >> > Chip >> > >> > >> > *From:*Katherine Moss [mailto:[email protected]] >> > <mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> >> > *Sent:* Friday, December 09, 2011 4:54 PM >> > *To:* >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > *Subject:* RE: an idea, but how to go about it when I get >> there? >> > >> > Yeah especially when things that should be implemented in >> simple >> > listboxes don't give any feedback. Though SharpDevelop is >> > completely reliant on WPF. How worth it is it to try and >> > investigate making WPF more accessible with WE? Is that >> already >> > happening where MSAA is being swapped for UIA? >> > >> > *From:*Chip Orange [mailto:[email protected]] >> > <mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> >> > *Sent:* Friday, December 09, 2011 4:50 PM >> > *To:* >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > *Subject:* RE: an idea, but how to go about it when I get >> there? >> > >> > Katherine, >> > >> > Also, have a look at the TreeView app from GW; it gives you a >> > detailed structure of all the controls and other elements of >> an >> > application, along with their MSAA information, and their >> > hierarchical relationships. All of these can give you clues as >> > to what each control is really doing. Still, there's no real >> > straight forward answer to this question; it's as much an art >> as >> > a science when trying to figure out how a program's UI works. >> > >> > Chip >> > >> > *From:*Katherine Moss [mailto:[email protected]] >> > <mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> >> > *Sent:* Friday, December 09, 2011 11:12 AM >> > *To:* [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> > *Subject:* an idea, but how to go about it when I get >> there? >> > >> > Hello all, >> > >> > I'm curious. I was just comparing the accessibility of the >> > SharpDevelop IDE with JAWS with that of WE and I find that >> > neither one makes any difference. Both of them have >> > accessibility problems in all of the dialogs and beyond. >> The >> > obvious thing would be to script it once my programming >> > skills get better, right? I would say so, but how does one >> > go about doing that when they don't know what the controls >> > and stuff are supposed to say anyway? This is driving me >> > nuts because SharpDevelop might be a fantastic option for >> > those programmers who want a professional grade IDE but >> > can't afford the likes of the professional version of >> Visual >> > Studio. The biggest problem I see is that lists are not >> read >> > and radio buttons have spoken state, but their content is >> > not labeled. Have any of you smart scripters figured out a >> > way to get to stuff like that without the help of a >> sighted >> > individual at all? (I despise the prospect of having to >> ask >> > a sighted person anything that has to do with that because >> > it means that they must stop what they are doing.) >> > >> > Katherine Moss, >> > >> > Administrator of the AccessCop Network, previously >> > Raeder24.org. Visit us on the web at http://raeder24.org >> > <http://raeder24.org/> >> > >> >> >> >> > > > >
