> > Oh, no! I went to the trouble of implementing new requests (.stringup, .stringdown) to keep people from having to type
(or copy and paste) messes like the above Oops, I completely forgot we added that recently. My bad. :( On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 at 04:34, G. Branden Robinson < g.branden.robin...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Steffen! > > At 2020-09-15T13:59:04+0200, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > > Just out of interest: why do you change an omnipresent idiom that > > is in use for standard section headers in Unix manual pages since > > at least fourty years? > > As Ingo noted, this was discussed on this list some time ago. > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2018-12/msg00141.html > > And done for groff_man(7) several months later. > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2019-07/msg00026.html > > But to answer your question in this historical spirit whence it was > posed: for the same reason that Unix was case-sensitive internally while > still being operable with uppercase-only terminals. Remember this? > > login: DMR > PASSWORD: > > A system should be implemented without incorporating superfluous > external limitations into its design. > > > This commit changes the world and will affect the generations of > > programmers to come, shall they experience it. > > It is a change with some impact, yes, but my intention is that people be > able to see fully-capitalized page titles and section headings without > much effort on their part if that is their desire. That is why I > implemented "CT" and "CS" registers in groff_man(7). Please see the > following commits. > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff-commit/2019-09/msg00009.html > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff-commit/2019-09/msg00018.html > > I intend to do the same for groff_mdoc(7); it already happily has > compatible configuration semantics, and I've recently been increasing > the parallels between our mdoc and man implementations in this respect. > Here's an example. > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff-commit/2020-08/msg00075.html > > The only reason you don't already see CT and CS support in groff_mdoc(7) > is simply that I haven't done it yet and it wasn't logically necessary > for the change set I've already made. I'll move this work higher on the > priority list since others may be as distressed as you were. > > > I mean, it is ok, why not, it only strives me as mysterious. > > I hope the citations by Ingo and John to previous discussions have > resolved the mystery. Again, the intention is not to impose someone > else's preferences upon you, but to make the expression of preferences > differing from yours _possible_. > > > And i think i will unsubscribe now, shall i ever find > > time for my groff clone, .. i do not know. Not that it matters > > anyway. > > I don't think unsubscribing is necessary. I'm happy to explain and > discuss any changes I make. I appreciate all reviews of my work. > > [Ingo wrote] > > The advantages of "Name" compared to "NAME" for separation of content > > and presentation, for typographic quality, and in particular for > > accessibility were discussed at length on this list, please consult > > the archives. > > Thanks, Ingo! I've supplied some URLs above for the lazy. :D > > [Steffen wrote] > > Well, now that you say it have fuzzy memories .. and refreshed > > them. Used to and living in text consoles only (though in > > graphical environment, again) i .. have mixed feelings, because > > now i am used to this notation for over twenty years. I think it > > does make sense for several output devices, notably PDF, maybe > > even HTML, or markdown even, but for manual page output i feel > > differently. Anyhow, if i make it, maybe i even follow but place > > a switch in site- and user-local configurations, for noone to find > > it ^_^. > > Except for the "no one being able to find it" part, that is precisely > what is intended. From groff_man_style(7) on the master branch we have: > > /usr/local/share/groff/site-tmac/man.local > Put local changes and customizations into this file. > > .\" Use narrower indentation on terminals and similar. > .if n .nr IN 4n > .\" Put only one space after the end of a sentence. > .ss 12 0 \" See groff(7). > .\" Keep pages narrow even on wide terminals. > .if n .if \n[LL]>78 .nr LL 78n > > On multi-user systems, it is more considerate to users whose > preferences may differ from the administrator's to be less ag‐ > gressive with such settings, or to permit their override with a > user-specific man.local file. One way to achieve the latter is > by placing the following at the end of /usr/local/share/groff/ > site-tmac/.man.local. > .so \V[HOME]/.man.local > Note that the above request will produce a warning if $HOME/ > man.local does not exist; you may wish to include one in /etc/ > skel or an equivalent account configuration system. Further‐ > more, a security-sandboxed man(1) program may lack permission to > open the file. > > I reckon I could add > .\" Put page titles and section headings in full caps. > .if n .nr CT 1 > .if n .nr CS 1 > to the above. Do you think that would be helpful? > > At 2020-09-16T00:13:30+1000, John Gardner wrote: > > For output destined for terminal display, it's easy to uphold this > > convention: > > > > .if n \{\ > > .tr aAbBcCdDeEfFgGhHiIjJkKlLmMnNoOpPqQrRsStTuUvVwWxXyYzZ > > \\$1 > > .tr aabbccddeeffgghhiijjkkllmmnnooppqqrrssttuuvvwwxxyyzz > > .\} > > Oh, no! I went to the trouble of implementing new requests (.stringup, > .stringdown) to keep people from having to type (or copy and paste) > messes like the above, and more importantly to prevent such material > from squirming into man page sources, where it would be most unwelcome. > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff-commit/2019-09/msg00006.html > > > The important part is that the source argument be expressed using > > "proper" capitalisation. This simply isn't possible if it's originally > > uppercase: > > > > .SH "INTRODUCTION TO HTML" \" BAAAAAD > > > > .SH "Introduction to HTML" \" Good > > Right. As groff_man(7) says (on the master branch)... > > -rCS=1 Capitalize section headings. Set section headings (the argu‐ > ment(s) to .SH) in full capitals. This transformation is off by > default because it discards case distinction information. > > -rCT=1 Capitalize titles. Set the man page title (the first argument > to .TH) in full capitals in headers and footers. This transfor‐ > mation is off by default because it discards case distinction > information. > > > The man(7) and mdoc(7) macros should be updated to do this, provided > > they've not been updated more recently to do so. > > Our man(7) implementation was updated a year ago to do this. > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff-commit/2019-09/msg00009.html > > A parallel change to our mdoc(7) is on my short list, as noted above. > (The itch to enable Colin Watson to kill the .ll hack[1] is slightly > stronger, though, and I have a private branch to rebase and get sorted.) > > I didn't do any mdoc development at all until I could regression test > it. Now that is done[2], and I suspect Ingo is quietly hoping that in > matters of man pages, I will be seduced to the DOC side of the Force! > > 3;-) > > Regards, > Branden > > [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2020-08/msg00083.html > [2] > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff-commit/2020-08/msg00071.html >
