On 8/28/20 2:10 PM, james wrote:
On 8/28/20 1:20 PM, Dale wrote:
Jack wrote:
On 8/28/20 12:33 PM, james wrote:
On 8/27/20 10:11 PM, Dale wrote:
james wrote:
Gentoo,
https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/
Surely some of the business/legal savvy folks want to "chime in"
on Sir Gorny's proposal?
I just read this on 'hacker news'
It just sounds like mostly a lack of fund raising to operate?
James
There's several issues that lead to this.� For ages, the
financial books were not kept up to date.� From what I recall,
some paperwork was lost which made it difficult to impossible to do
the needed IRS filings.� Things on that part seemed to snowball
from there.� In the past few years or so, that has been dealt
with and from what I've read, it is now up to date and they are
trying to get back in good standing with the IRS and other Govt
entities.� I think I read where most of the hard work as already
been done, just needs time to kick in.� It isn't hard to get into
that situation, it just takes one year with a mistake to trigger
bad things.� It takes a lot of work to get it cleared up tho.�
All of us should be grateful to the ones who put in the hard work
to get that taken care of.� I'm sure it took a lot of effort and
time to get that done.� I'm sure it was boring as heck to do as
well.� Some of us would likely have no hair left.
Another issue, not many want to run the foundation.� The devs
mostly want to write code.� They aren't to much interested in
running the foundation part of it.� A few do because it is needed
and they do their best, some even go far beyond that, but they
really want to write code.� That's what developers came to Gentoo
for after all. Since there is two different bodies that run Gentoo
in different ways, it further reduces the number of people wanting
to do the job.� The foundation part is from my understanding,
bureaucratic paperwork.� Who wants to do that for free?�
There's not many. Basically, if you run for a position on the
foundation, it's good odds you get it because usually just enough
run to fill the open spots.� I often wonder, do they draw straws
to pick people to run just so things keep chugging along??� LOL
Then there is the costs.� It costs to deal with all the paperwork
and filings.� There's state filings as well as federal.�
Missing either of those can cause trouble for the other and also
get expensive and time consuming to correct.� Again, very few
want to deal with it.� The few that do likely do it because
Gentoo needs it not because they are jumping up and down wanting to
do it.� It's what keeps Gentoo going. It's cheaper to join some
other group like has been talked about for years and let them take
a percentage of the money and them as professionals handle all that
nasty paperwork and filings.
My personal opinion.� I'm still leaning to keep Gentoo as it is
but I'm not the one doing all the boring work either.� My
concern, Gentoo joins some group and it ends badly for Gentoo.�
Maybe they screw up something and that puts Gentoo and maybe
everyone else in the group in jeopardy with govt entities or
lawsuits.� On the other hand, if Gentoo doesn't have the right
people, they could do the same thing to themselves.� The people
who do run for those seats do try their best even if something goes
wrong.� Thing is, it doesn't take much to run afoul of govt
entities or trigger a lawsuit. Gentoo has been lucky in that
regard.� There is no easy answer to this.� Either way has
advantages.� Same can be said for disadvantages as well.
I'm sure there is more that isn't known to the public and I'm sure
some things are escaping my mind at the moment.� Either way,
whatever keeps Gentoo going and successful, that is what needs to
be done.� Since I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not sure which
is best long term.
Now someone add more to this.� ;-)
Dale
:-)� :-)
The referenced article says this:
"Right now we�re already relying on a CPA to handle our filings.
For a commercial company (we are one now), the cost is $1500 a year."
Seems way too high. I pay $500/yr for a C corp here in Florida; a
firm that that is "outstanding" with the US IRS.
"If we wanted to go for proper non-profit, the estimated cost is
between $2000 and $3000 a year."
Still seems way to high. With Gentoo, we can use Any state, so why
not move the home to a low cost state?
Many corps use Delaware, just for that reason.
I think most of those listed numbers are not just the official filing
fees, but include paying a CPA to do the filings.� While certified
CPA is not required to do any of those filings, I suspect it is now
that way because historically, the volunteer who was supposed to do
it didn't.� Paying someone does seem excessively expensive, but you
know it will get done, and if not, you have some legal recourse.
"If we were to pass full accounting to an external company, the
rough estimate I�ve been given by Trustees is $2400. So once our
volunteer bookkeeper retires, we�re talking of around $4000 +
larger taxes for a corporation, or $4500 to $5500 + very little
taxes for a non-profit."
Again, these numbers are WAY TOO HIGH. Shop around!
Many states are way less expensive.
Again, I think those numbers are to pay someone to handle the
filings, not just the fees.� I don't suppose it really changes much
about the discussion.
Ok so ask why don't I volunteer? I've been using gentoo, since 2002.
I have made many enemies, because of my views on the whole "install"
abortion. WE could easily help another loosely coupled, gentoo
derivative distro
create a robust, easy install system, whilst leaving "Gentoo Proper"
as an enclave for the brilliant.
It there were agreement to that sort "diatribe", enthusiastically,
THEN I could help the trustee situation, and help bring in lots of
cash to pay devs for what every reason the technical leaders decide.
CoreOS, gentoo-install (Mike Mol), CloverOS, and dozens and dozens
(over the years) have solved this problem, bot did not receive any
love or praise from the Gentoo devs......
So, if Gentoo wants money, as a charity, it is so simple, it hurts.
BUT a few things have to change (non-negotiable)!
I've done this too many times with dozens of folks. ALL are
multi-millionaires. MONEY is easy, but it does come with strings
(actually very few for something like gentoo).� The current
situation is pathetic and easy to fix. Be warned, when it comes to
money, and I am on the responsibility chain, I tend to be a bit
dictatorial. Once the money starts flowing in, I'd look to hand
things off to a much younger techie, so he(she) can build there
resume and I can drift back into oblivion,
in a cabin, in the woods.......
For me, it just breaks my heart to see Gentoo needed to have one of
our (currently) awesome coders have to "prostrate" himself publicly
like this. But, if a broken system/leadership is broken, then that
is the sign things need to change. This has been a recurring
situation, for 2 decades now. Just look around, most other distros
have so much 'action' going on, they are rolling in cabbage.
Perhaps the Gentoo council members ought to engage the gentoo-user
list, directly? Surely others would have solution, very viable, to
what I have proposed?
The second thing I'd do, if on the council, is have a direct program
for High School age kids to use Gentoo to become entrepreneurs.
That's right, how to form a C-corp, write some codes and start
receiving funds directly into their C-corp. Minimum goal? Self
Funding for Secondary education. Learn Business via gentoo, and
coding "from the masters" aka gentoo devs.
There are tons of methods for young entrepreneurs to access funding
and grants, if you "get your house in order". For that, it means a
simple Rasp. Pi. 4 sourcecode install? The microprocessor companies
would line up to build boards, for these kids. EASY as PIE!
Be Bold and Be Bad_ass, if you want to live and prosper in this day
and age.
painfully,
James
I agree there is likely more done with those fees than just filing
paperwork.� I've read there is a CPA involved and I recall lawyer
being mentioned a few times too.
CPAs are a dime a dozen, if you know where to look. I have a board
certified, Lawyer+CPA that does my hi end stuff for free. But I give him
much more in the way of technology and engineering skills. He is filthy
rich, owns an island in the Carribean and travels the world.
It'd be an outstanding opportunity to put Gentoo on a cell phone, for
guys like this to use. Or perhaps get a gentoo dev to put Gentoo on a
cell phone and give a free one to the governor's office in that state
and say
"wow, look what a high school kid did with Gentoo". Governors just love
that sort of promo.....
Surely Calif. and Texas and Delaware are full of such masters of the law,
taxes and charities....
�> Another thing, some devs aren't even in the
USA.� I'm sure any expenses related to things they do are more
complicated to file.
Wrong. The get a credit card and put expenses on that, that benefit a US
charity; 100% tax deductible,� if the expenditure "benefits or is
essential" to the charity. It's call "case law". Any CPA, with a lawyer
in good standing in the US, knows all about this. Gentoo is FAMOUS,
globally. USE IT! WE can get a real bad has to handle gentoo, legally
and financially. But, surely there will be new rules, some do not like.
TOUGH.
Those expenditures, by a gentoo dev, anywhere globally, are 100% tax
deductible,
as long at that dev follows USA IRS tax rules, including BS fees by
foreign countries. Dirt Simple to implement.
�> Since the GSoC thing is almost always
international, I'm sure it requires more detailed tracking and time to
compile the info. Given that air traffic, read that as mail
services, between the USA and other countries is shutdown due to the
bug, that may complicate things even more.
I think the person who is handling things now might could do the
paperwork and filing BUT it takes time.
Sorry, that was a very emotional response, with too many errors. Fix below.
Dude. It's call "gnucash". Those that act as or get paid or spend Gentoo
funds, input the data, the same day, into a Gentoo-GNUcash system. At
tax time, it takes an accountant, minutes to generate a tax return.
I have done this for a decade now, with CPAs loving gnucash. TIMELY
documentation, fixes all of this. If it does not pass USA-IRS deduction
rules, which are very lenient, just like USA churches, then there are
rarely issues. Liquor and massages are excluded.
Initiation and use of overseas accounting, accounts and such is a receipt
for an audit. DONT DO THAT!>�� = DIRT SIMPLE.
Done it for decades. You want to please the IRS?
Dont do business with China. DIRT SIMPLE.
Let the Chinese techies form Gentoo-China and deal with the Chinese
government, and raise their own funds. Problem Solved.
I think they spent most of their time trying to fix history not more
recent things.
That is done, move on.
It's a non-issue now. Gentoo, currently in good standing. James, via
lawyers, know how to put and keep gentoo in "pristine standing" with the
USA IRS. Dirt simple, if you have the right attorneys.
From the sound of it, getting back in to the good graces of the IRS
was a difficult and time consuming ordeal.
That's because they used THE WRONG LAWYER!
�> Let's keep in mind, that person as far as I know
is not paid.
Fix the broken/arcane install, and we'll have plenty of cash to utilize.
They spend time on it as they can just like devs do with code. If
they have a bad week at work, that could mean nothing Gentoo gets done
that week.After all, real life has to be looked after first.
Timely entries into a Gentoo-gnucash system fixes all of that,
instantaneously. NO EXCEPTIONS.
A few trips to DC, meetings, and new behavior will put Gentoo on the
"short list" for many global charity functions, and includes legal
funding. Big churches fly around in private Jets, all 100% tax free. You
think with the right lawyer(s) Gentoo cannot impress the world?
Again, the right lawyer.
As to forking, its been done before. As a general rule, someone
thinks they have a much better plan so off they go. Most don't make
it long and so far, I don't think any of the survivors have come close
to the success of Gentoo itself.� I've never really seen the sense
in forking as long as Gentoo is still working and serving a persons need.
So you saying that "smarty pants" did not make money off of CoreOS? Are
you sure you want to stand by that position? Any idea what RedHat and
IBM paid smarty pants? He's on food stamps now, right?
EASE of installation mean more members means more spending money to make
the distro, great again.
And it gives kids(HS and college) HOPE!
Sort of waiting for Rich to chime in here. He likely knows more of
what is going on plus may remember things better than me.� ;-)
I have a history of pissing off folks with the truth. The truth is
thousands of corporations have made billions of dollars with gentoo. The
retarded installation system is just a filter to keep others,
with less money, from having access to an easy gentoo install.
Dale
:-)� :-)
Dale, my strong response to you, is not a personal attack or in any way
negative. I appreciate your contributions to gentoo and this tread-idea.
But when one of our technical leaders, mgorny, who is totally awesome,
has to prostrate himself publicly on "Hacker News" it is time for a
drastic change, financially. If others have that fix, please step
forward. The fact that nobody wants to volunteer for the Gentoo councils,
translates into this distro is in trouble.
So here is a little further detail on what I propose. Each of the Gentoo
council members needs to be responsible, individually, for bringing in
funds to Gentoo. The funds they each bring in, are under singular
authority to spend, to the benefit of the Gentoo distribution. (IRS RULES)
Half of those funds, raised by that council member, go directly to the
techies to decide how to spend (a budget). (IRS LEGALLY)
The other half are directly managed by that council member; to be spent
as he/she sees fit. The US IRS has rules, standards and plethora of
documents delineating the details of what can and what cannot be spent
however.
MUST BE FOLLOWED
A council member, from say England, could manage how 1/2 of what they
raise as to how it is spent. It could even be "english centric" but must comply with USA
IRS standards. Our council could be expanded to many members, from other
countries, with a centric goal of spending Gentoo funds
(1/2 of what they raise) in any country they choose subject to USA tax
standards). Realize many churches in the USA (501-c) do just that. WHY
the USA? I'm glad you asked. Charities, in good standing with the USA
IRS, can pretty much articulate GLOBALLY, without fear. Most foreign
government, imho, have less standing in the world. It is codified as TAX
TREATIES and most governments of the world have such agreements with the USA IRS.
It's the gold standard for global finance.� England use to be pretty
close to bad-ass, but the whole EU clusterF put quite a tarnish,
internationally on the English banking system.
YMMV.
DIRT simple to fix. James is going to focus on the USA,
and getting thousands of high school kids into their own corporations, being a
Gentoo dev; and MAKING MONEY THEY CONTROL.
College kids, with technical (gentoo) skills) can easily follow the model.
Without the council AND the Gentoo devs signing on to a program like
this; at 100% my costs, to prime the pump, then I'm not interested in active participation.
Dale, you are deeply appreciated. If other technical moguls disagree,
let them form Geetoo-whatever, in another country, gentoo-china(?) and
run their own charity according to those rules.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxtreaty.asp
and yes the USA IRS has an "obfuscation approach" on this subject:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p514
That's why the right CPA-ATTORNEY is key. Our IRS obfuscating the truth
so charities pay more than necessary? NO, that cannot be true?
Just follow the example of one of the "megga churches",
but they "have the right attorney".
So to start, simplify by just keeping the funds and accounting, here in
the good old USA. Let others start gentoo centric charities in other
countries. Dirt Simple.
Truly, there is no other globally recognized tax system
like the USA-IRS (bad ass && world class open). That's why in times of
trouble, entrepreneurs world wide flock to the "dollar". Also, being in
elite standing with the USA-IRS opens many doors to enhance and
promote and deploy GENTOO globally.
sincerely,
James Horton, PE
(actually in good standing)
I hope these fixes and additions are more pleasing to the reader.
James
