A simple alternative is 'expectation'. However, I have no problem with using it the way Joe wrote it.
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Ross Gardler <rgard...@opendirective.com>wrote: > I did read the topmatter, but I still felt it was a concern. It's not > just about mentors, that was just one example of a potential problem. > > Specifically the document currently says "podlings have a right to > expect active participation and guidance from their mentors" - I fully > support this, but as Upayavira asks, what can the IPMC do if this is > not the case and no other mentors step up? > > I agree with your statement in this thread that mentoring is a > "best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability not something we > should commit to in a "Bill of Rights". I am not suggesting we commit > to anything. Quite the opposite, I'm concerned that as your document > is currently written it can be read as being a commitment (even with > the topmatter making this explicit). > > It's hard to resolve without making your whole document just a bunch > of words on a page. Maybe the topmatter is enough. Maybe I'm being too > cautious. > > Anyway, as I said, on balance I really like this, if someone smart can > wordsmith it then great. If not lets adopt it anyway. > > Ross > > On 19 June 2013 00:13, Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Did you read the topmatter disclaimer about the terminology? > > Anyway no podling has a guaranteed "right" to a sufficient number > > of mentors, that's why I didn't bother addressing Upayavira's > > concern. That is a best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability > > not something we should commit to in a "Bill of Rights". > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Ross Gardler <rgard...@opendirective.com> > >> To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com> > >> Cc: > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:09 PM > >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights > >> > >> Joe, this is (in general) great. I feel I could pick a few holes and > >> make a few suggestions but they are mostly insignificant so I'll > >> refrain from doing so. > >> > >> I do have one concern I want to air. Unfortunately I don't have a > >> suggestion for improvement so am happy for you to ignore it, but maybe > >> someone else has a bright idea. > >> > >> My concern is the use of the word "right". We are a volunteer > >> organisation. Telling a podling they have a "right" to Foo and Bar > >> might set the wrong tone. Upayavira appears to be thinking something > >> similar (unless I'm misinterpreting him) when he asks: > >> > >> "I guess a question that it would be worth clarifying - what happens to > a > >> perfectly reasonable podling who's mentors resign/go awol, when the > >> Incubator PMC cannot recruit replacements? Can we make any promises at > >> that point?" > >> > >> Perhaps we can use a slightly softer word - perhaps I'm being too > cautious. > >> > >> On 16 June 2013 15:16, Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> Since I realize that most of you can't be > >>> bothered to look at the wiki page I created ;-), > >>> I'll go ahead and post the current content > >>> here for commentary. I hope the bulk of it > >>> is non-controversial, though some of it may > >>> not belong on the page... > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------ > >>> First a clarification- as provisional constructs of the Incubator PMC, > >> podlings have no official standing in the corporation known as The > Apache > >> Software Foundation. So technically, it is a farce to claim that > podlings have > >> any formal rights whatsoever. What we write about here are promises and > >> covenants the Incubator PMC will make a good-faith effort to honor. > >>> > >>> 1. First, podlings have a right to expect active participation and > >> guidance from their mentors. That minimally includes participation in > release > >> votes, discussions and votes on new personnel, and signing off on a > >> podling's quarterly reports. > >>> > >>> > >>> 2. Mentoring is done solely for the podling's benefit, and as such > >> podlings have the right to fire mentors for any reason by a majority > consensus > >> vote on their private list. Just don't be denigrating about it, since > >> mentors are always volunteers and not paid staff. > >>> > >>> > >>> 3. Podlings who find themselves in need of additional mentors > have the > >> right to ask general@incubator for more mentors to volunteer. > >>> > >>> > >>> 4. Podlings have the right to expect their quarterly reports to be > >> read, reviewed, and critiqued by "shepherds" on the Incubator PMC, who > >> are typically outside the podling's set of mentors. > >>> > >>> > >>> 5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about > anything > >> related to their incubation to the Incubator Ombudsman > >> <ombudsman@incubator>, who will handle such communications as if they > were > >> sent anonymously. > >>> > >>> > >>> 6. Podlings have the right to express their opinions concerning > their > >> incubation efforts post-graduation (or post-mortem) in the form of an > anonymous > >> survey. > >>> > >>> > >>> 7. Podlings have the right to ignore commentary made on > >> general@incubator in the middle of a VOTE thread, especially during > releases. > >> Reminder- release votes are a majority consensus vote, so seeing a few > -1's > >> occasionally is expected and often ignorable by the RM should they > otherwise see > >> a majority of at least 3 binding IPMC votes. > >>> > >>> > >>> 8. Podling committers have the right to remain unsubscribed to > >> general@incubator. Any relevant policy/process changes will be passed > along by > >> the podling's mentors. > >>> ------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Comments and critiques welcome. I'd like to > >>> move the ball forward to a ceremonial endorsement > >>> VOTE on this over the course of the remainder > >>> of June, so please be constructive! > >>> > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
