Thanks for the clarification, Roy. Cheers, Chris
P.S. Almost want them to change to lazy consensus, bc you laying smack down is full of win. On 2/14/13 11:38 AM, "Roy T. Fielding" <field...@gbiv.com> wrote: >It is a majority decision. In theory, the PMC could decide to >create special bylaws that would change that to a lazy consensus >decision, but then I would have to lay the smack down about why >it is that the US government sucks because supermajorities are >designed to deny proper governance. > >In the absence of specific rules (like our lazy consensus rule >on code change voting), you can assume that lazy majority decisions >are the way that decisions are made at Apache (like releases). > >....Roy > >On Feb 14, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: > >> Hey Alan, >> >> Great point -- thanks for highlighting the concern, and yes, Benson, I'd >> like the Incubator PMC to request this clarification from the board. >>BTW, >> not frustrated with you guys at all and wish you the best. Just trying >>to >> help (even if it didn't seem like it) based on my existing experience >>with >> several of Apache's largest umbrella projects :/ >> >> Cheers, >> Chris >> >> On 2/14/13 8:31 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote: >> >>> I'd like second and extend Benson's point about clarifying how these >>> things should work. In addition to clarifying what it means to >>>graduate >>> into a subproject now that that is frowned upon, clarifying how these >>> votes work would help. I think Chris felt that we ignored his vote and >>> pushed ahead. From my reading of the docs it was supposed to be a >>> majority vote and thus to view the -1s as a veto would be to improperly >>> ignore the 5 +1s. If the rules were clear in advance for the next >>>group >>> that faces this situation it will help to avoid these misunderstandings >>> and frustrations. >>> >>> Alan. >>> >>> On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:29 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not so much opinionated as confused here, perhaps because I have a >>>> very linear view of governance. >>>> >>>> I like to know how a vote fits into a governance structure or process, >>>> and I've felt for some time that this case (podling goes to existing >>>> TLP) is not well-explained by our structure. >>>> >>>> Back in the days when subprojects were normal and valid, the incubator >>>> had a role on behalf of' an existing TLP in supervising IP and >>>> community behavior. Graduation meant: "OK, umbrella, we certify that >>>> these people can behave like a project and have clean IP." And, >>>> perhaps, the board actually established subprojects? It's all before >>>> my time. >>>> >>>> Now that subprojects are no longer in the picture, I don't even know >>>> why the IPMC should ever incubate a podling *if the plan, from the >>>> start, is to be part of some existing TLP.* So I have assumed that >>>> HCatalog started out with the intention to grow into an entire TLP, >>>> and came up with the Hive plan as a fallback. >>>> >>>> To try to make this long story shorter, I think that we should make a >>>> proposal to the board with a schema for handling this case that makes >>>> sense in current conditions. I'm happy for it to be your schema, which >>>> amounts, as I see it, to the board having a supervisory moment when >>>> this happens, with an IPMC vote providing the same sort of strong >>>> recommendation one way or the other that it does for establishing a >>>> TLP. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) >>>> <chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >>>>> Hi Benson, >>>>> >>>>> I saw your later email(s) and Incubator board report. It's fine and I >>>>> think the message of my objection comes across. >>>>> So thanks for that. >>>>> >>>>> One thing I wanted to comment on: >>>>> >>>>> On 2/13/13 4:10 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bimargul...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as >>>>>>it >>>>>> happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that >>>>>> they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the >>>>>> board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer >>>>>> to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree, >>>>> >>>>> Not by my counts. There's a *community* resolution and a >>>>> recommendation to >>>>> be made by the IPMC, nonetheless. >>>>> Otherwise, the IPMC is pretty useless IMO, and more importantly, so >>>>>is >>>>> the >>>>> Incubator. >>>>> >>>>> Why bother even incubating HCatalog? Hive could have simply svn cp'ed >>>>> whatever code came in, or whatever code the podling arrived at, and >>>>> Incubation would have stopped then. But we both know that's not the >>>>> way it >>>>> works. Even if a podling graduates to an existing TLP, go check out >>>>>the >>>>> past resolutions. You'll note there's a section in there that >>>>> discharges >>>>> the responsibility of the IPMC for the podling. So, yes, the IPMC >>>>>*is* >>>>> involved. And yes, the IPMC vote matters. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
