> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2021 at 11:15 AM > From: "Frosku" <fro...@frosku.com> > To: "Ian Lance Taylor" <i...@google.com> > Cc: "GCC Development" <gcc@gcc.gnu.org> > Subject: Re: removing toxic emailers > > On Fri Apr 16, 2021 at 5:28 PM BST, Ian Lance Taylor wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:08 PM Frosku <fro...@frosku.com> wrote: > > > > > > On the other hand, I also think that a project which goes too far in > > > policing speech, especially speech unrelated to the project, will drive > > > away > > > talented people who are more than willing to comply with the project's > > > norms > > > within the project's spaces. Trying to enforce the 'California cultural > > > standard' on not only someone's interactions with the project but their > > > entire life (which may be lived in a very different cultural setting) > > > seems > > > very invasive and culturally exclusionary. > > > > I do live in California, but I don't know what the "California > > cultural standard" is. It's a big place, and it's full of people who > > behave in all kinds of different ways. Harvey Weinstein and > > brogrammer culture are California cultures. You presumably have > > something in mind, but I'm not sure it's a real thing. > > There isn't a real name for any given culture because culture is such an > organic > thing. When I think of codes of conduct I come back to i.e. Linus giving > people > a hard time in code reviews, or Coraline Ada Ehmke's critiques of meritocracy. > Neither of these beliefs about what culture should be (Linus' or Coraline's) > are > objectively right or objectively wrong, but both are likely to attract > different > people, and result in different outcomes.
We will certainly have to adapt to the recognition that the human race is in great danger because of our politics going crazy and nationalism being a serious treat. Our world must turn itself into a new set of people that is unlike the generation that brought us in free software - just one corner of the western world. In 2016, Cosmologist Stephen Hawking warned us to stop reaching out to aliens before it's too late. His assessment was that distant alien civilisations might view us as inferior, weak, and perfect to conquer. We barely averted nuclear annihilation in the later half of last century. The problem is that we have not adapted ourselves to control all the power we already have. Science and technology has empowered us too much. After destroying much of the vegetal and animal species on Earth, we have started destroying ourselves, like other civilisations have destroyed themselves in the past. But this time, the collapse may be global. Good luck with death! > When I refer to a 'California cultural standard', that's not prescriptive. > It's > just a reference to the fact that a *lot* of the SC live in California, and > any > culture prescribed by the steering committee will be overly influenced by that > commonality. You will have ideas about what is welcoming, what is polite, etc > which are shaped by your upbringing just as I or anyone else does. These are > not objective truths, or internationally accepted as such. > > > > I'd be interested to know where you draw the line as to what behavior is > > > related to the project, or if you don't draw a line, why volunteers in > > > China, > > > Russia, Poland etc should be expected to accept an entire political > > > doctrine > > > over their life to contribute to a compiler toolchain. > > > > How did we get to accepting an entire political doctrine? > > > > What I have in mind is treating people with respect. For example, I'm > > involved with the Go programming language. The Go community has a > > code of conduct: https://golang.org/conduct. The key elements are: > > > > - Be friendly and welcoming > > - Be patient > > Remember that people have varying communication styles and that not > > everyone is using their native language. (Meaning and tone can be lost > > in translation.) > > - Be thoughtful > > Productive communication requires effort. Think about how your words > > will be interpreted. > > Remember that sometimes it is best to refrain entirely from commenting. > > - Be respectful > > In particular, respect differences of opinion. > > - Be charitable > > Interpret the arguments of others in good faith, do not seek to > > disagree. > > When we do disagree, try to understand why. > > > > Avoid destructive behavior: > > > > Derailing: stay on topic; if you want to talk about something else, > > start a new conversation. > > Unconstructive criticism: don't merely decry the current state of > > affairs; offer—or at least solicit—suggestions as to how things may > > be > > improved. > > Snarking (pithy, unproductive, sniping comments) > > Discussing potentially offensive or sensitive issues; this all too > > often leads to unnecessary conflict. > > Microaggressions: brief and commonplace verbal, behavioral and > > environmental indignities that communicate hostile, derogatory or > > negative slights and insults to a person or group. > > I certainly prefer it to the Contributor Covenant, however the last > point ('microaggressions') is an example of 'California culture'. In > most of the world, we do not have any such concept. The examples I've > seen online for what counts as a microaggression include asking questions > like "where are you from?" > > I'm assuming this is considered offensive because there's a trend of using > it to imply that someone "isn't welcome" in the local area, but in most of > the world this isn't considered an offensive question. As someone who > spends the vast majority of my time in countries that aren't my birthplace, > it's one of the questions I hear the most. > > I'm not sure that most of us who live outside of cultures where "micro- > -aggressions" are a commonly referenced 'thing' would know if we're making > one or just being friendly. As an aside, would this be applied to > communication in GCC spaces or to all off-list communications i.e. Twitter > / Weibo postings, e-mails, things said at unrelated conferences? > > > And I have to note that I have seen very few people here saying "RMS > > must never participate in GCC in any way." What I see most people > > saying is "RMS should not be in a position of leading the GCC project > > and telling people what to do." > > My concern here is that if not RMS/GNU -- an institution which most free > software users outside of the corporate space trust -- then who? I mean no > personal offense to you or anyone else, but as (I assume) a fairly typical > GNU+Linux user, I do not have a large amount of trust built up for Silicon > Valley technology companies which have shown outright hostility to us for > years. I, and I assume many others, would feel very aggrieved if the GNU's > oversight were to be replaced with a group of representatives of those same > corporations (even if you are all good people). > > GNU's primary mission is to be a free operating system, and GCC is supposed > to be a part of that operating system. I understand that GCC now has plenty > of usage outside of hacker culture & GNU -- it has outgrown us -- but it > is still the tool we turn to when we need to compile something. For that > reason, I'd like to think that there's some representation of that 'hacker' > culture and that OS within the leadership, even if it's not RMS, to respect > that we are still a large constituency of the users and historically were a > large constituency of the contributors. > > I can't speak for others, but for me at least, replacing ties with GNU with > ties to another well-respected (non-corporate) entity in the free software > world like Debian or the Apache foundation would go a long way in allaying > my worries about this shift. > > >>= %frosku = { os => 'gnu+linux', editor => 'emacs', coffee => 1 } =<< >
