SNIP
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John Courtneidge Wrote:
Dear Friemds, all,
I snip from Ed's amd then comment below.
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>From: Ed Goertzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Why are we in debt? [Snipped & Comment]
>Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999, 8:53 pm
>
>The solution to the problem is to restrict the banks to the function they
>were intended to fulfill. That is to facillitate trade of goods over the
>short term and not use its credit creating authority to claim ownership of
>real property.
>
>The really biggest problem is to find a way to get back to a regulated
>system without destablising the economy.
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John said:
The most original pupose of banks was, surely, as 'secure shelves.'
The problem arose when the contents of those shelves were lent for profit
(money-lending at interest, riba, usury.)
Ed Replied:
The subject does go back to the ancient Summarians and has passed through
many metamorphosies. At different times (historically) and places for
different purposes there have been what I would call 'dominant usage'. As
an abstract value, money can be a real shapeshifter.
Without gainsaying John's point, more recently, as the dominant volume of
trade changed from trade within the community to trade between communities
and the international arena, the anathema of interest, riba and usuary
evolved from what was an insurance charge (insuring a cargo that was laded
on a ship) to interest. That was to accomodate the time that the good was
at risk of either default or other hazzard. Recognising that the loss would
be borne by the bank.
That there is risk involved in trade is self evident. Who should bear the
cost of that risk must be determined by either the contractors to the
trade, supplemented by the regulations of governments to ensure that fraud
is minimized.
John Said:
At that point money was converted from its intended purose (as a medium of
exchange) into a medium of exploitation (money is lent *from* those who have
a surplus of it *to* those who have a scarcity of it.)
Money has always been a medium of exploitation. Some readers will will
recall that Joseph, even at the tender age of 12, skilled in the concept of
abstraction, was traded to the Dorion caravan traders. Those traders
traded not only in goods but also money. International money (in the form
of the dominant metal with which to manufacture arms) was loaned at
interest to the people and govenments of city states. When the debts became
uncollectable because oif service charges or interest, money was loaned to
neighbouring city-states with which to buy arms (from the money lenders
friends) to help collect the debt. International debt collection was called
war. We would be hard pressed to find a modern war that did not have its
feet rooted in the desire for economic pre-eminence.
Have we forgotten that Belgium had enormous investments in Rowanda and
England had just completed a large sale of arms to Rowanda for which it had
not been paid at the time of the horror. An overthrow of the existing
regime would mean that they would not be paid. Its called "vested interest"
in the existing Hutu dominated regime." International convention inhibits
actions that prevents the collection of debts.
John said:
The way of reverting banking to its core function is to reorganise banking
as a public service (secure keeping of money in banks as a compliment to
secure keeping of public security on the streets by community-controlled
police forces) *along with* community creation of both money (for its
purposes) and credit (for its.)
Ed Said:
I'm not sure that I comprehend "...as a compliment to..." If I read
correctly, I would have to insist that the two elements of civilization,
i.e. the right to private property and the right to personal inviolability,
while both assured by laws publicly promulgated, should be kept separate.
John Said: (In addition to proposing that money be kept as a public service)
As for the economic effects, I can only see change of this type as change
for the better - the community would recover charge of its destiny and the
multitude of troubles that compound interest (usury) bring would be removed.
Ed Said: I whole-heartedly agree. Could we please start by prohibiting one
corporate person to own another corporate person as a slave? The whole mess
of corporations dominating governments reached a new and modern plateau
when David Rockefeller, to retain his monopoly and evade the anti trust
laws, established subsiduary companies off state (as a first variation of
off-shore).
Sorry about the off topic discussion. As a peace offering I offer the
following quote to those who are injured by off post topics.
Percy Barnevik, Chief executive of Asea Brown Boveri, a 29-Billion -a-year
Swiss-Swedish builder of electric generators and transportation systems,
and one of the largest engineering firms in the world says, after cutting
50,000 workers from the payroll, "where will all these [unemployed] people
go?" Pp11. He also expects the labour force employed in manufacturing and
business services in Europe to decline from 35% to 25% by 2005 and to 15%
by 2015. He say�s "If anybody tells me, wait 2 -3 years and there will be a
hell of a demand for labour, I say, tell me where? What jobs? In what
cities? Which companies? When I add it all together, I find a clear risk
that the 10% unemployed or underemployed today could easily become 20 to
25%. Pp12. The End Of Work, by Jeremy Rifkin, (1995)
Sincerely,
Ed G
=============
Peace and goodwill
Ed Goertzen,
Oshawa, ON, CA
L1G 2S2,
905-576-6699
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Timocracy: A form of governance known in ancient Greece that means
"government by the worthy". While at that time 'worthy' meant property
owning, there is no reason not to define it as "those who want to
participate in the none partisan formation of, and administration of public
affairs in addition to electing represenattives." To be followed by firm
advice to their elected representatives and reporting back to electors.
For further information contact Ed Goertzen at >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]<<
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
