On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:14:26 +0100 John C <[email protected]> said:
> Raster, > > If you read the post instead of getting your hackles up whenever you > hear the name "AMD/ATI" you'd have noticed he was using the OSS driver. > In your opinion, is the OSS radeon driver itself so bad? where. here is the ENTIRETY of his original question/post excluding quoted stuff: -8<------------------------------------------------------------------- ... I'm using e17.3 from SID, with composite and opengl off (it crashes my box very hard if switched on, and I must delete ~/.e to be able to restart enlightenment again). I have a Radeon HD 7850. Would it be a bad idea for me to upgrade to e18 since composite is always on? -8<------------------------------------------------------------------- where does it mention using oss radeon drivers? i replied to THAT mail, and THAT reply is what alan is getting his hackles up about. i am talking of that one. i read the WHOLE thing. that above WAS the WHOLE thing. and my reply: -8<------------------------------------------------------------------- i'd say it's a bad idea to have an ati gpu at all. there's your root cause. ;] -8<------------------------------------------------------------------- > You've got a definite problem with people disagreeing with your opinion, oh no. oh hell no. don't go put words into my mouth that i never said OR implied. the reason i get my hackles up at someone saying "stfu" with a justified reason is that i aam being told EXACTLY what you are accusing me of. i NEVER denied anyone should express their opinion. EVER. you know me absolutely not one iota if you think that is how i work. nowwhere in this thread or otherwise have i indicated, said or even implied that people would not be able to express their opinion. i ABSOLUTELY agree with voltaire on: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." absolutely EVERYONE has the right to express an opinion and say what they want. if it's a continual stream of fantasy, not founded in any reality at all and they continue again and again - it's worth shutting down just to stop the flow of nonsense. but that is far from the case here. i expressed a very short and succinct opinion and solution. given the input, it was/is a viable solution. but after having been told effectively "it doesn't help <class of user here> - you look bad having a low opinion of ati". where <class of user> was not stated at the start (the user does not claim to be a member of that class, and in fact indicates they are not by model name+number) and then having expanded on the reasons behind my opinion, i am then told to "stfu"... by alan.. WHO here is the one who has a problem with people disagreeing? who? > and in some cases there are people who don't have a choice about what > laptop they receive from the boss! Be realistic, and if you don't want no. i have a problem with people telling me to stfu because they simply don't like my answer, and then when literally using their not-so-hidden expletive wanting to lecture on "how this reflects". seriously. full-on double standards. THAT is what i have a problem with. the moment anyone wants to take out the "shut up" line to tell someone to not express their view is the moment my ire is going to rise. if i had a problem with simply not liking other peoples opinions i'd just remove them from this mailing list. it's pretty easy. i'd ban them from irc channels. but i WON'T. because I don't tell people to "stfu" when i don't like their view, unlike some. > to support AMD GPUs AT ALL, then state so openly in the enlightenment > documentation! Don't say it's officially supported but then come down > hard on anyone who calls you on it, that's not just being childish, it's > being downright dishonest. And you're baiting flamewars by not coming > out on the position officially. where is it written that it's supported? i know i NEVER wrote that. ever. it's not in any documentation. what are you seeing that i don't? i KNOW i never wrote anything like that - because i frankly never would. it's not on e's about page. not on the about for efl. it;s not in e's README. not in the documentation.html in doc/ ... i'm running out of places to look. unless it's some user written documentation in a wiki somewhere i don't know of... but is sure as hell was not me by any stretch and it's not in any official docs for e (or efl) that i know of. so please... don't start inventing facts to support whatever case you are trying to make. and just for the record... i have come out on this position entirely publicly many times - i suggest you google for #e irc logs. yes - that is public. it's logged. don't make me do it for you - i did one for you already - this mailing list JUST 2 weeks back! > So, yeah, FGLRX sucks, we all agree, and nobody who asks your help uses > it anymore. Done. Write it up that E will never be supported on FGLRX, > that way complaints about it stop. Easy as that. that's just plain wrong. you have a very short memory. literally within the last 2 weeks someone asked for help - they were using fglrx. it took several rounds of email to figure that out. *I* actually suggested they try radeon after going around a few times (they didn't say what gpu it was first). go read the "Performance Problems with E18" thread. Esteban Monge was the user using fglrx who ASKED for help with performance problems. once he said he used fglrx (glxinfo) i was very plain about ati being on a blacklist of stuff to buy. just read it. and i simply repeated the same thing here which alan took immediate offense to. go back into the mailing list thread history. do it before inventing "facts" that are entirely untrue. this was literally the 27th of november... 2 weeks back! and you claim NO one asks for help. 2 weeks ago man! > Now as for the OSS driver, if, in fact, there is a bug in the radeon > code, THAT IS WORTH INVESTIGATING! Whether the bug is on your side, or > radeon's side! By jumping down people's throats whenever they ask for > help using the OSS driver, you're not just discouraging people from > using E, you're also potentially throwing away a good opportunity for > the radeon guys to find bugs in their code if it's not in yours! did you READ my reply to the original message? what in it was "jumping down someone's throat"? seriously. did you READ. it consisted of: -8<------------------------------------------------------------------- i'd say it's a bad idea to have an ati gpu at all. there's your root cause. ;] -8<------------------------------------------------------------------- where did i jump down any throats? yes - i have a problem with people putting words in my mouth like "jumping down people's throats". alan decided to say that that line "looks bad". i replied with an explanation to alan of my bad experiences. with BOTH the open source driver AND fglrx (open source one just didn't work at ALL and fglrx had its "compiz or bust" issue... amongst others). where did i jump down anyone's throat... ? UNTIL alan decided to tell me to "stfu". how dare i justify an opinion with experience. how dare i do that! how dare i express an opinion at all. and of all.. publicly! what a bad boy! i should just stay quiet and not ever say anything that may possibly sound like an opinion. > Yes, you're a genius writing E, and we all appreciate the work you've > done on it, but your attitude with people coming to the user's mailing > list asking for help with a legitimate complaint about a bug with all > OSS software and drivers is dowright hostile! If you want to be mean to > people, join a boxing or martial arts club, you'll get all that hatred > out of your system there and maybe, just maybe, you'll find the internet > has one less enraged project leader. look. why don't you read the thread. seriously. just read it and don't invent aything. unlike alan, i never resorted to expletives nor telling anyone to "shut up". but yes - if you want to tell me to "stfu" because i have bad experiences with ati chips and associated drivers (BOTH open AND closed), and that i advise on using something else, then expect me to do something other than slink away into the night. > I'm not saying people yelling at you is fun and should be tolerated, but > reading through this particular topic I've not seen any particularly > hostile attacks on you or your code beyond the fact that there's a bug > when using the OSS radeon driver. If you can't accept that even 'O great never was the oss radeon driver mentioned, EXCEPT when alan wanted to tel me to "stfu" and he didn't have a problem. > master raster' occasionally has bugs in his code, or that other projects > do and that E doesn't handle them as gracefully as KDE or Gnome, well, > that's another problem, but not one I expect to be realistic since > you've had a rather civilized and efficient team helping you with E for > a long time. yes - my code has bugs. but please read back. first my experiences are with code ACTIVELY blacklisting anyone doing compositing EXCEPT the one true chosen compositor (compiz). that is not a bug - it's active denial. that alone was enough to have ati on my blacklist and go out ans spend money on a new laptop, as at the tome there was NO FIX. no update to fglrx to make it work and radeon oss drivers still didn't support the hd4650m at the time. and for that reason ati as a hw platform went onto my black list... for the second time. and for expressing my dissatisfaction as a PAYING CUSTOMER ... i get told to stfu? great. > *rant against hate in my inbox over* > > Goeland, long time E-user > > On 11.12.2013 13:54, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:30:35 +0200 Alan McKinnon <[email protected]> > > said: > > > > actually i had a longer reply, but i'll just keep it short. > > > > so in "alan mckinnon land" it's perfectly fine to tell people offering > > advice based on direct experience to "stfu" when they disagree with you > > (you seem to like radeons because you actively chose to have a boatload of > > money spent on a system tied to one), but telling them to "stfu" - only > > opinions that you approve of allowed (lest they reflect badly!), but your > > usage of that expletive (it's not exactly hidden), is totally maintaining > > the high-ground there and having no reflection at all? > > > > a very interesting land you live in there. very interesting. > > > > p.s. i never said the gpu's were bad. you really should read better. i said > > "it's a bad idea to have an ati gpu". the gpu begets the drivers which > > beget a system hard-lock when used "as advertised". but how dare i have an > > opinion on that, even given personal experience to the tune of having > > wasted my own personal $3000 (not company money) on a machine not that far > > back, and the fact that i have actively practiced my solution to the > > problem (avoided ati gpus) for years, and it's worked wonders for me. > > > > p.p.s. a radeon 7850 is a desktop model gpu. read the original mail. the > > 7850m is the mobile version for laptops (normally). sure - he could have > > been loose with his wording, but given the wording the original poster > > never indicated the gpu was not easily replaceable and the information > > given indicates it could be. > > > >> On 11/12/2013 10:45, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > >>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:45:12 +0200 Alan McKinnon <[email protected]> > >>> said: > >>> > >>>> On 11/12/2013 01:50, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > >>>>> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:07:37 -0500 Christopher Barry > >>>>> <[email protected]> said: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:35:59 +0900 > >>>>>> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ...snip... > >>>>>>>> I read on another thread you saying e18 is actually less bleeding > >>>>>>>> edge than e17. Do you suggest running the e18 branch to gain more > >>>>>>>> stability? > >>>>>>> i would say its rock solidly stable. it works better than e17. it > >>>>>>> should also use less memory (when compositing). e18 has no choice > >>>>>>> there though. you composite like it or not. :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm using e17.3 from SID, with composite and opengl off (it crashes > >>>>>> my box very hard if switched on, and I must delete ~/.e to be able to > >>>>>> restart enlightenment again). I have a Radeon HD 7850. Would it be a > >>>>>> bad idea for me to upgrade to e18 since composite is always on? > >>>>> i'd say it's a bad idea to have an ati gpu at all. there's your root > >>>>> cause. ;] > >>>> > >>>> That doesn't help people with laptops and ATI gpu's > >>> you can just get a different laptop. it's not that hard. :) > >> Yes it is that hard. This isn't a throw-away netbook or a tablet that > >> comes free with a phone contract. > >> > >> This laptop is a Dell M4600 Precision and it's maxed out, 16G RAM, 128G > >> SSD, 500G HDD and 2nd Gen i7. It costs a goddamn fortune and the company > >> paid for it. I can't just "get another one because some arb dude called > >> raster on the intartubes has a thing about ATI". > >> > >> > >>>> I know you don't like ATI but you can't ignore that it exists, and > >>>> making statements like you just like looks very bad on the project you > >>>> lead. > >>> if your gpu driver causes your system to hard-lock... i would say the > >>> problem is entirely out of our hands. your gpu driver has a major major > >>> major bug. > >> I replied to your post where you said ATI makes crap gpus. But this > >> sentence is about drivers. So what is the problematic element? The > >> hardware or ATI's fglrx driver? > >> > >> I don't use fglrx, I run OSS radeon. The reason I don't use fglrx is > >> because I can't figure the damn thing out but I ordered the hardware > >> knowing in advance the radeon OSS drivers works just fine. > >> > >> > >>> if someone said "your software causes a kernel hard-lock every time it > >>> writes a > >> [snip fglrx rant] > >> > >> > >> Yes, I know all of that. You are very vocal in your opinion about fglrx. > >> I just think your blanket statement about get another gpu are > >> unrealistic in real life, and reflect badly on the project as a whole. > >> > >> Maybe tone done the rhetoric a touch, or stfu on the matter, or issue a > >> policy statement as to what the project supports that doesn't leave a > >> whole segment out in the cold. > >> > >> Most folks I know would just give up on e and install KDE rather than > >> try figure out how to wangle an ATI card and an nVidia one in. Like I > >> said, this here gpu is embedded. > >> > >> -- > >> Alan McKinnon > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT > >> organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance > >> affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your > >> Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics > >> Pro! > >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > >> _______________________________________________ enlightenment-users > >> mailing list [email protected] > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT > organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance > affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your > Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-users mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, & PHP application. 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