Hello, I totally agree with Alexader's position, and I re-iterate his sentiment: This is embarrassing.
If I shared this discourse about whitelisting/blacklisting in the software field with founders of Back Lives Matter, I would suspect that they would look at me in a strange way. Don't do something, because it is trending, or, in this case, because some guy at Google (or at any company) did it. That's called herd mentality. If any computer professional cares enough about racial discrimination in the U.S. (and in the rest of the world, for that matter), they ought to get involved in racial justice movements/projects. There are plenty of them around. Would we, please, stay out of messing around with computer/software terms? Unless one has undisputed evidence that those computer folks who first came up with terms like whitelisting and blacklisting were racist or at the minimum they were influenced by a racist history, which I believe they were not. I would further propose unless one can prove that every time in our profession we use computer terms like whitelisting and blacklisting, the thing that triggers our conscious mind is the idea of the white race as good and the black race as bad, which I believe it does not. BTW, bringing down statues of Confederate generals/leaders is a different discourse. They were racist and to this day their existence exemplifies the institution of racism and discrimination. Regards, Hooshyar Naraghi On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 2:11 AM Alexander Lyabah <a.lya...@checkio.org> wrote: > I'm not debating, since nobody has something to say. I'm explaining, why > things that you are doing are embarrassing. > > I hoping that wikipedia will be not that populistic > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelisting > > On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 5:32:58 PM UTC+3, Adam Johnson wrote: >> >> Alexander, it's not really up for debate any more. We've already merged >> the PR's to Django. >> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 13:51, Alexander Lyabah <a.l...@checkio.org> >> wrote: >> >>> let's not change the subject >>> >>> we are not talking about black and white, we are talking about whitelist >>> / blacklist and master / slave. Those statements have a big history in >>> programming, which has nothing to do with slavery at all. >>> >>> Don't mix words with meaning and senses. >>> >>> ... It is important to understand when you make changes like this. ... >>> words and meaning >>> >>> I've never seen anyone who is by doing 'git checkout master', think >>> about white race superior. - It is because master has a different meaning, >>> different sense, which is nothing to do with slavery, and fight for freedom. >>> >>> I've never seen anyone who is by playing white in Go-game, think about >>> white race superior. (Even though by Go-rules white gets +7.5 points >>> against Black at the beginning of the game) - it is because white has >>> different meaning and different sense, and it is nothing to do with >>> slavery, and fight for freedom (it is because blacks move first). >>> >>> You have power here to do what ever you want to do in this framework. I >>> what you to use common sense and don't follow the rules dictated by >>> news-channels and big corporations. I want rules, you follow, being strong >>> and independent from what is going on around. In that case you don't need >>> to split community after next big news. >>> >>> Thank you, with all respect. >>> >>> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 4:18:04 PM UTC+3, Tom Forbes wrote: >>>> >>>> As an international framework I think we should make our interface as >>>> language and culturally agnostic as possible. ‘Allow’ and ‘Deny’ are simply >>>> semantically clearer than ‘white’ and ‘black’. That alone is a convincing >>>> argument for me. >>>> >>>> On 19 Jun 2020, at 13:55, Alexander Lyabah <a.l...@checkio.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Django in international framework, not US-framework. You should not >>>> change variable names just because meaning of some words have been changed >>>> in US recently. Those words have been used in source-code for years, and >>>> nobody put racism in those word when this framework was founded and nobody >>>> puts any racism in when one is using for creation something big and >>>> meaningful. >>>> >>>> What I'm encourage you to do, is to thing farther than what is going on >>>> right now. >>>> >>>> If Django Foundation really want to help in this revolution - add a >>>> banner on that landing page. Feel free to choose >>>> >>>> https://eji.org/ >>>> https://org2.salsalabs.com/o/6857/p/salsa/donation/common/public/ >>>> >>>> And this kind of contribution will work much better. >>>> >>>> Thank you, for this opportunity to share my opinion. >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 7:28:23 PM UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This ticket was closed wontfix >>>>> <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/31670#ticket> as requiring a >>>>> discussion here. >>>>> >>>>> David Smith mentioned this Tox issue >>>>> <https://github.com/tox-dev/tox/issues/1491> stating it had been >>>>> closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's >>>>> something I can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add >>>>> aliases >>>>> at the least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket). >>>>> >>>>> My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet >>>>> article >>>>> <https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-to-replace-master-with-alternative-term-to-avoid-slavery-references/> >>>>> - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and >>>>> GitHub >>>>> is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these >>>>> types of changes. >>>>> >>>>> I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we >>>>> use that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though >>>>> right >>>>> now it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some >>>>> kind of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical >>>>> terms are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of >>>>> worms somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be >>>>> concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also >>>>> worried about our credibility if we don't. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1c9178a3-cb80-428c-bacb-e8904695f6b6o%40googlegroups.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1c9178a3-cb80-428c-bacb-e8904695f6b6o%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/19a78e27-7d1d-4f0b-a2af-8a9594aa620fo%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/19a78e27-7d1d-4f0b-a2af-8a9594aa620fo%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> Adam >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/d5c3a001-b7f0-4dd6-b43a-1439df36c71co%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/d5c3a001-b7f0-4dd6-b43a-1439df36c71co%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. 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