David, I agree, and understand.
But let me step back a bit: ASF (as it all started around httpd) as a foundation hosts MANY projects wildly different projects, and those projects usually have a handful (few, when compared to Maven) of "deliverables" or "artifacts" being released. Or in other words (and am not trying to lessen their complexity or nor to present Maven as something "special" here), most of ASF projects have few, very few deliverables (again, I am talking about the majority, correct me if I am wrong). Really, are there any statistics about: - number of reposes used per ASF project - number of different (!) artifact releases done per project? Maven on the other hand, while id DOES also have ONE "downloadable" item on download page (https://maven.apache.org/download.cgi) we all know that story does not end there: it is known to "download the whole internet", just to run Maven "mvn clean verify" it will download zillion of plugins and their dependant artifacts (and I did not even mention 3rd party, non ASF plugins). So, Maven, as a "deliverable" or "product" is definitely not one ZIP file you see on the download page. ASF Maven project has many interconnected reposes/artifacts/releases. So, what I want to say: is it possible that ASF "way" works for "typical" projects, while Maven is more like "atypical"? Or, to make my example more concrete: 1. I checked out master of maven from http://github.com/apache/maven 2. built it w/ pristine local repo 3. and run some stats on it: 4. https://gist.github.com/cstamas/ee2bba03f61d09fa3f5e9c57844207b7 This simply means that for the end user, the "experience of ASF Maven" is literally 1 (that on download page) + 233 = 234 releases. And it is all very interconnected. Btw, I just downloaded 16848 hours :) T On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 9:53 PM David Jencks <[email protected]> wrote: > You are free to do your own research. I’ve seen plenty of “but we want > the convenience of <72hr releases” discussions over the years, and the > feedback I’ve seen is consistently that the reason for the “should” rather > than “must” is to account for emergency security patches etc, not normal > releases. > > David Jencks > > > On Nov 18, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Tamás Cservenák <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > As I wrote, we did have examples of changes + cascading, it is okay. > > > > But I don't agree with your statement about the board, as they themselves > > state "should" not "must" for 72h. If it does not cut with them, they > > should modify the refd page(s). > > > > And it's not "we're impatient" either, part of the response for that is > in > > "hasty changes" canned response. > > > > Simply put: > > - people see releases as a chore, as some "burden" that needs to be done > > once in a while (see refd Slack messages in 1st mail), and when it comes > to > > be done, "let's do it when it's worth". We have MANY user questions on ML > > of type "when is X released? As the issue [the user is interested in] is > > fixed". And we have too many "dropped balls" in our court. IMHO, > modifying > > the process (to take less than 72+2h) is one step toward making release > > less painful, less blocker. > > > > Fun fact: maven project consists of (not sure of exact count, just > > guessing) 150+ repositories (GH on ASF org gives 153 when I type in > > "maven-" in the repo search bar). This is a LOT. If we'd, for some > reason, > > start releasing all of those in 72h windows, it would be 10800 hours, or > > 450 days, more than a year. > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 8:34 PM David Jencks <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> Which developers have to pause what activities? > >> > >> From previous discussions elsewhere, I’m strongly of the opinion that < > 72 > >> hr release votes are intended only for emergency security fixes and > similar > >> events, and that “we’re impatient” isn’t going to cut it with the board. > >> It certainly wouldn’t with me. > >> > >> How many of these annoyances would be eliminated by an easy way to > release > >> and vote on a set of changed artifacts + the cascading dependencies all > at > >> once? > >> > >> thanks > >> David Jencks > >> > >>> On Nov 18, 2022, at 11:17 AM, Tamás Cservenák <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> David, > >>> > >>> I just meant that there is a "forced pause" of 72h. > >>> > >>> T > >>> > >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 7:50 PM David Jencks <[email protected] > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> +1 from the sidelines. > >>>> > >>>> I don’t understand > >>>>>>> * current process causes (forced) context switching, and can likely > >>>> lead to > >>>> human mistakes: when the release vote is announced, developer is > FORCED > >> to > >>>> stop for 72h and possibly switch. This is just a productivity killer. > >>>> <<< > >>>> Who is forced to do anything and for what reason? > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >> > >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >
