Members present: westei, AndyS, jfrank, dglachs, sschaffert, ansell, wikier
---------------- Meeting summary: ---------------- 1. Preface 2. 3.1.0-incubating release preparation a. shift MARMOTTA-238, MARMOTTA-192, MARMOTTA-77, MARMOTTA-67, MARMOTTA-43,MARMOTTA-296, MARMOTTA-182, MARMOTTA-228 and MARMOTTA-248 to version 3.2 (wikier, 2) b. 17 issues shopuld be fixed for 3.1-incubating: MARMOTTA-284, MARMOTTA-213, MARMOTTA-300, MARMOTTA-301, MARMOTTA-232, MARMOTTA-28, MARMOTTA-149 MARMOTTA-236 MARMOTTA-225 MARMOTTA-283, MARMOTTA-208, MARMOTTA-199, MARMOTTA-205, MARMOTTA-155 , MARMOTTA-231, MARMOTTA-110 and MARMOTTA-280 (wikier, 2) 3. AOB -------- Actions: -------- - shift MARMOTTA-238, MARMOTTA-192, MARMOTTA-77, MARMOTTA-67, MARMOTTA-43,MARMOTTA-296, MARMOTTA-182, MARMOTTA-228 and MARMOTTA-248 to version 3.2 (wikier, 08:38:22) IRC log follows: # 1. Preface # 08:05:59 [sschaffert]: topics? 08:06:04 [wikier]: help at http://www.apache.org/dev/asfbot.html 08:06:12 [wikier]: for me the main topic is the release preparation 08:06:26 [wikier]: so let's start with it 08:06:29 [wikier]: and later check for aob 08:06:34 [wikier]: ok? 08:06:42 [sschaffert]: ok # 2. 3.1.0-incubating release preparation # 08:06:56 [wikier]: ok 08:07:04 [wikier]: checking jira 08:07:04 [wikier]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20resolution%20%3D%20Unresolved%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20%223.1-incubating%22%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 08:07:11 [wikier]: 17 open issues 08:07:19 [wikier]: 7 must be fixed 08:07:34 [wikier]: the other we should discuss what to do for this release 08:07:49 [wikier]: (7 regarding priority) 08:08:19 [wikier]: what do you think? 08:08:20 [sschaffert]: ok, 284 might be fixed already with the many changes that I did for passing the Sesame testsuite 08:08:49 [sschaffert]: but for the protocol: before we release I'd like you to do some extensive additional tests 08:09:04 [wikier]: MARMOTTA-213 is tricky, but I take care 08:09:27 [sschaffert]: as you might already know, for passing the Sesame testsuite I had to do some critical changes, particularly regarding .equals() and .hashCode() 08:09:50 [wikier]: yes, that might requires proper testing 08:09:51 [sschaffert]: this can have effects in Set and Map structures, so please test with many different scenarios 08:10:14 [sschaffert]: can I briefly summarize the solutions here? 08:10:51 [wikier]: please 08:11:00 [sschaffert]: since the discussion on .equals() and .hashCode() is still open on Sesame, I did a different solution for us 08:11:06 [wikier]: but briefly ;-) 08:11:06 [sschaffert]: yes 08:11:30 [sschaffert]: the issue is that Sesame forces a triple semantics on .hashCode and .equals not taking into account the context 08:11:56 [sschaffert]: so as a solution I introduced in marmotta-commons a StatementCommons class 08:12:21 [sschaffert]: with utility methods that allow you to create tripleSet, quadrupleSet, tripleMap and quadrupleMap, using the different semantics for hashCode and equals 08:12:52 [wikier]: hi ansell 08:12:59 [ansell]: hello 08:13:03 [sschaffert]: using Guava's "Equivalence" and a custom collections library called Javolution - source code included for the moment in marmotta-commons 08:13:37 [wikier]: ansell: sschaffert is summarizing the issues with have with the semantics of .equals() and .hashCode() in the sesame tests 08:13:41 [sschaffert]: so if you need a Collection for statements, first think whether you need triple or quadruple semantics, and then use the utility methods in StatementCommons to create the collection 08:13:50 [sschaffert]: (already done) 08:13:58 [sschaffert]: (summarizing) 08:15:13 [wikier]: such change could have several lateral effects, so we must test it before include in the release 08:15:43 [sschaffert]: https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf?p=incubator-marmotta.git;a=blob;f=commons/marmotta-commons/src/main/java/org/apache/marmotta/commons/sesame/model/StatementCommons.java;h=c04e7be4cd16b3360ca56ba3ba90f80b6e81d9d0;hb=refs/heads/develop 08:16:13 [sschaffert]: yes, but we need to include it because otherwise we don't pass the Sesame tests :) 08:16:20 [wikier]: right 08:16:28 [wikier]: but... 08:16:35 [sschaffert]: I changed it in all places that I was aware of, mainly the internal data structures in KiWi 08:16:43 [wikier]: can we do more on testing for warranty no lateral effects somewhere else? 08:16:59 [wikier]: we must check that 08:17:29 [sschaffert]: well, the test suites we pass, but as I said, I'd like to have some long-term testing with systems that are not immediately cleaned up after test 08:17:36 [wikier]: I guess MARMOTTA-300 could be related 08:17:45 [sschaffert]: not sure 08:17:52 [sschaffert]: should actually not 08:18:01 [wikier]: we'll see... 08:18:22 [sschaffert]: the only effect you might have through the change is that some triples with different contexts will appear as one 08:18:23 [wikier]: ok, so for now should be fine? 08:18:44 [sschaffert]: yes, and if you encounter problems, remember to use StatementCommons.newQuadrupleSet() 08:18:53 [wikier]: are actually one triple, different quads 08:19:00 [jfrank]: to wrap up: java-collections with Statements/KiWiTriples are dangerous 08:19:14 [ansell]: the sesame compliance tests contain checks for both the presence and absence of context 08:19:14 [jfrank]: that's the message? 08:19:29 [ansell]: but yes, using HashSet is not recommended 08:19:31 [sschaffert]: not dangerous but the semantics needs to be considered 08:19:44 [ansell]: I have in the past used TreeSet with a custom comparator, but that is much slower than HashSet 08:19:52 [wikier]: ansell: marmotta has a default context, not null, that was something tricky sschaffert and jfrank had implemented for the tests 08:20:14 [sschaffert]: ansell: I am now using Javolution FastSet, they allow giving custom hash functions as parameters when creating the set 08:20:22 [ansell]: yes, and I have some work open extending the tests so that they don't expect null as the default context 08:20:22 [sschaffert]: and should be very fast 08:20:24 [wikier]: ok, wrapping up, can we consider that ready for being released? 08:21:09 [sschaffert]: (for the NOTICE and LICENSE: Javolution is BSD 2-clause license, I already updated the NOTICE and LICENSE files) 08:21:38 [wikier]: update MARMOTTA-213 so 08:22:15 [sschaffert]: it is not related to 213, because 213 is referring to the remaining *old* issues :) 08:22:38 [wikier]: new dependencies also affect it 08:22:45 [wikier]: just to have track 08:23:00 [wikier]: ok 08:23:15 [wikier]: back to the technical part of the issue 08:23:15 [sschaffert]: well, I inserted in the old style and once you check the LICENSE and NOTICE you can fix it if needed, nothing to track specifically 08:23:15 [wikier]: can we consider that ready for being released? 08:23:30 [sschaffert]: please do some testing first in your scenarios 08:23:39 [sschaffert]: not unit-testing, real testing 08:23:45 [wikier]: so no 08:24:01 [sschaffert]: no, "yes but..." 08:24:24 [sschaffert]: I tested, it works for me, seems reliable, but I'd like to see you test it as well 08:24:33 [wikier]: I'd recommend to open an issue for addressing such user-based testing before the release 08:24:54 [wikier]: critical one 08:25:00 [jfrank]: +1 08:25:09 [sschaffert]: I consider this part of the release preparation, and who would be responsible for closing it? 08:25:44 [sschaffert]: I don't like issues with "Responsibility: All" 08:26:07 [wikier]: exacly 08:26:07 [wikier]: date? 08:26:22 [sschaffert]: end of September 08:26:47 [jfrank]: well, release is scheduled for Thursday.... 08:26:52 [sschaffert]: 3 days before release 08:26:52 [sschaffert]: ah ok 08:27:07 [wikier]: so 08:27:07 [sschaffert]: then test until Thursday but extensively :) 08:27:15 [wikier]: release target date would be the end of month> 08:27:21 [wikier]: ? 08:27:36 [sschaffert]: jfrank just said Thursday, which was new for me 08:27:39 [sschaffert]: I thought end of the month 08:28:14 [wikier]: as soon the better 08:28:51 [wikier]: what about end of next week? 08:28:53 [wikier]: 20th 08:29:30 [wikier]: as target date for the first release vote? 08:29:52 [wikier]: well, first we have to agree on something 08:30:08 [wikier]: right now we have 18 issues registered 08:30:09 [wikier]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20resolution%20%3D%20Unresolved%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20%223.1-incubating%22%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 08:30:14 [sschaffert]: end of next week is bad, because next week we are working partly on other topics 08:30:22 [jfrank]: that's the point 08:30:29 [sschaffert]: either end of this week or end of the month 08:30:38 [wikier]: I'd prefer to focus the effort on those major/critical (8), and shift the others to 3.2 08:30:52 [wikier]: first we should agree on what 08:30:59 [sschaffert]: agreed 08:30:59 [wikier]: and then think about dates 08:31:24 [wikier]: specially conflicting is MARMOTTA-228, since it's blocking many other ui-related issues 08:32:10 [sschaffert]: yes, I don't know the progress on this issue, tkurz was working on it 08:32:44 [wikier]: PROPOSAL: shift MARMOTTA-238, MARMOTTA-192, MARMOTTA-77, MARMOTTA-110, MARMOTTA-67, MARMOTTA-43,MARMOTTA-296, MARMOTTA-182, MARMOTTA-228 and MARMOTTA-248 to version 3.2 08:32:44 [sschaffert]: he is in a meeting right now, we can ask him later if this can be finished until end of this week 08:32:44 [wikier]: +1 08:33:07 [wikier]: sschaffert: summarizing: no progress inthe topic branch 08:33:07 [jfrank]: anyways, 228 is not critical. 08:33:15 [wikier]: https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf?p=incubator-marmotta.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/MARMOTTA-228 08:33:31 [jfrank]: 110 is in progress and 98% done 08:33:44 [sschaffert]: yes, but I would not take a decision without tkurz 08:34:37 [jfrank]: 43 should be moved 08:34:39 [wikier]: I talked with him, and since the work in that branch is very disengaged from the develop one, he would prefer to shit it 08:34:52 [sschaffert]: ok, so we shift it 08:35:07 [wikier]: ok 08:35:07 [wikier]: so, again 08:35:14 [wikier]: PROPOSAL: shift MARMOTTA-238, MARMOTTA-192, MARMOTTA-77, MARMOTTA-67, MARMOTTA-43,MARMOTTA-296, MARMOTTA-182, MARMOTTA-228 and MARMOTTA-248 to version 3.2 08:35:17 [sschaffert]: +1 08:35:29 [ansell]: +1 08:35:29 [jfrank]: checking... 08:35:37 [wikier]: +1 08:35:54 [wikier]: current sumary at https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20resolution%20%3D%20Unresolved%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20%223.1-incubating%22%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 08:36:06 [ansell]: then 228 could have major priority rather than minor, to fit its blocking issues 08:36:36 [sschaffert]: good suggestion 08:36:36 [wikier]: ansell: I agree, but for the next release 08:36:45 [ansell]: yes, after the shift 08:36:52 [sschaffert]: yes, so when you shift the issues, update priority 08:36:52 [wikier]: good 08:36:54 [wikier]: agree 08:37:01 [jfrank]: +1 to the shift-list 08:37:07 [wikier]: ok 08:37:14 [wikier]: 4 +1s 08:37:52 [wikier]: dglachs, AndyS westei? 08:37:59 [dglachs]: +1 08:38:00 [wikier]: ok 08:38:07 [sschaffert]: btw, did you also check the issues without "fixVersion"? some might be critical as well for the release 08:38:10 [wikier]: #action: shift MARMOTTA-238, MARMOTTA-192, MARMOTTA-77, MARMOTTA-67, MARMOTTA-43,MARMOTTA-296, MARMOTTA-182, MARMOTTA-228 and MARMOTTA-248 to version 3.2 08:38:22 [wikier]: #action shift MARMOTTA-238, MARMOTTA-192, MARMOTTA-77, MARMOTTA-67, MARMOTTA-43,MARMOTTA-296, MARMOTTA-182, MARMOTTA-228 and MARMOTTA-248 to version 3.2 08:38:23 [AndyS]: I'm not a developer here. 08:38:52 [wikier]: ok, no 08:39:14 [wikier]: ok, so now we are in a much better position for planning the release 08:39:23 [wikier]: next week is a bit difficult for some of us 08:39:37 [wikier]: so, I think end of month would be fine 08:39:44 [wikier]: 26th? 08:39:54 [sschaffert]: either this or we aim for end of this week 08:40:10 [westei]: +1 08:40:14 [sschaffert]: end of this week would have the advantage that we'll do a sprint now and push things forward 08:40:30 [wikier]: exactly 08:41:24 [wikier]: and then, if the release passes, actually releasing by the end of month 08:41:24 [wikier]: sound good for me 08:41:31 [sschaffert]: ok 08:41:31 [sschaffert]: so 08:42:01 [sschaffert]: PROPOSAL: finish release candidate end of this week and release it 26th 08:42:09 [wikier]: +1 08:42:31 [sschaffert]: we can have the votes running next week then (first on our list then on incubator-general, so 6 days) 08:42:31 [sschaffert]: +1 08:43:33 [jfrank]: so - 9 issues remain for 3.1 08:43:35 [wikier]: so, this is the actual current status https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20resolution%20%3D%20Unresolved%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20%223.1-incubating%22%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 08:43:41 [wikier]: thx jfrank 08:43:43 [wikier]: 9 issues 08:43:48 [wikier]: perfect 08:43:50 [sschaffert]: jfrank: I don't agree, I think there are some that are simply not marked correctly 08:44:19 [wikier]: as soon as they are solve, we should merge develop to default, so then no new features should go there 08:44:34 [jfrank]: which ones? 08:44:36 [wikier]: sschaffert: what?!? 08:44:57 [sschaffert]: 40 issues altogether without a fixVersion 08:45:00 [sschaffert]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20resolution%20%3D%20Unresolved%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20EMPTY%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 08:45:27 [jfrank]: we cleaned the list, now we can add new ones ;-) 08:45:51 [wikier]: those were not planned for 3.1, simple 08:45:58 [sschaffert]: most of these are non-critical 08:46:04 [ansell]: I get 90 issues without a fix version, including 53 that are bugs (not tasks or improvements) 08:46:29 [wikier]: although, some are not rightly planned 08:46:36 [wikier]: MARMOTTA-283 is one 08:46:36 [sschaffert]: ansell: of these 90 many are closed 08:46:44 [sschaffert]: or resolved 08:46:44 [ansell]: ahhh, my bad 08:46:59 [ansell]: so only 2 critical unclosed bugs without a fix version 08:47:21 [ansell]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20issuetype%20%3D%20Bug%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20EMPTY%20AND%20status%20in%20%28Open%2C%20%22In%20Progress%22%2C%20Reopened%29%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 08:48:02 [sschaffert]: yes, 232 is hard to reproduce but I am working on it 08:48:18 [sschaffert]: this is actually what I was doing right now 08:48:26 [wikier]: msot of then should go to 3.2, or even 4.x 08:48:41 [wikier]: but, please, check the list 08:49:14 [sschaffert]: that was my point 08:49:43 [sschaffert]: and if an issue is not fixed, please update the fixVersion and priority 08:50:52 [jfrank]: we have 20 unscheduled bugs... 08:50:59 [jfrank]: but not all are real bugs. 08:51:14 [sschaffert]: so update the issue types if you encounter one of those :) 08:51:15 [wikier]: sschaffert: you were recently working on MARMOTTA-232, right? 08:51:22 [sschaffert]: yes 08:51:29 [wikier]: MARMOTTA-232 08:51:31 [ansell]: 205 doesn't seem like an actual bug since it was reverted, pending my fixes to sesame for rdf-1.1 08:51:37 [sschaffert]: until I ran into your MARMOTTA-300 ;-) 08:51:52 [wikier]: so should be planned for 3.1, right? 08:52:16 [jfrank]: I moved all rdf-1.1 issues to 3.2 08:52:37 [ansell]: 205 didn't have a version though, so it wasn't moved, as far as I can tell 08:52:44 [jfrank]: so 205 should be working now... 08:52:52 [ansell]: yes 08:53:14 [jfrank]: i'll add it (205) to 3.1 08:54:11 [jfrank]: what about 155? 08:54:11 [jfrank]: MARMOTTA-155 08:54:19 [wikier]: +1 about MARMOTTA-205 08:55:04 [sschaffert]: yes, +1 for me also 08:55:28 [sschaffert]: MARMOTTA-208, did anyone verify it since I fixed in June? 08:56:00 [ansell]: 155 will require a new LanguageHandler implementation, see https://openrdf.atlassian.net/browse/SES-1826 for updates on that 08:56:14 [wikier]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20issuetype%20%3D%20Bug%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20EMPTY%20AND%20status%20in%20(Open%2C%20%22In%20Progress%22%2C%20Reopened)%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC <-- only 6 remaining 08:56:44 [sschaffert]: for 155, did anyone try with Java 7 lately? 08:56:52 [ansell]: I had a BCP47 LanguageHandler implementation ready for sesame until the veto of the java-7 upgrade, so it is quite easy to do 08:56:52 [sschaffert]: I added a comment back in March 08:57:59 [wikier]: so ansell, then MARMOTTA-155 should be shift awaiting for sesame 2.9.x? 08:58:29 [ansell]: trouble is that it isn't actually necessarily going to be sesame-2.9 08:58:52 [ansell]: threeroundstones have vetoed the java-7 update indefinitely 08:59:24 [sschaffert]: ui, why? Java 6 is already out of support 08:59:24 [ansell]: the way LanguageHandler is setup though, is that anyone can implement one, so we can do it independently for marmotta 08:59:32 [wikier]: ok, so I'll test MARMOTTA-155 with java7 08:59:39 [ansell]: no idea, I was annoyed at it also, given the effort I put into it 09:00:09 [wikier]: ok, I take it 09:00:24 [ansell]: https://bitbucket.org/openrdf/sesame/src/7796198d63fb3b43fb21c6c79eba06701e9914a2/core/rio/languages/src/main/java/org/openrdf/rio/languages/RFC3066LanguageHandler.java?at=master 09:00:31 [ansell]: just need to reimplement that class 09:00:41 [sschaffert]: ok, great 09:00:49 [ansell]: and then add it to each ParserConfig object (that last bit is the big bit) 09:01:54 [wikier]: ok, great guys! empty list at https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20issuetype%20%3D%20Bug%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20EMPTY%20AND%20status%20in%20(Open%2C%20%22In%20Progress%22%2C%20Reopened)%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 09:02:14 [wikier]: so now we have 17 for 3.1-incubating: https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20MARMOTTA%20AND%20resolution%20%3D%20Unresolved%20AND%20fixVersion%20%3D%20%223.1-incubating%22%20ORDER%20BY%20priority%20DESC 09:02:51 [wikier]: I think we can afford it by the planned date 09:02:53 [wikier]: what do you think? 09:02:58 [AndyS]: Java6 is not out of support everywhere but the real issue seems to be that too many people+orgs are still using it. /me does not really understand why they aren't using Java7 (with Java6 code) just for the bug fixes and performance improvements). 09:02:58 [sschaffert]: ok, I also think so 09:04:04 [wikier]: sounds feasible 09:04:18 [wikier]: great! at least we have a plan 09:06:52 [wikier]: #info 17 issues shopuld be fixed for 3.1-incubating: MARMOTTA-284, MARMOTTA-213, MARMOTTA-300, MARMOTTA-301, MARMOTTA-232, MARMOTTA-28, MARMOTTA-149 MARMOTTA-236 MARMOTTA-225 MARMOTTA-283, MARMOTTA-208, MARMOTTA-199, MARMOTTA-205, MARMOTTA-155 , MARMOTTA-231, MARMOTTA-110 and MARMOTTA-280 09:07:02 [wikier]: s/shopuld/should 09:07:25 [wikier]: actually 18 09:07:50 [wikier]: #info 18 issues shopuld be fixed for 3.1-incubating: MARMOTTA-284, MARMOTTA-213, MARMOTTA-300, MARMOTTA-301, MARMOTTA-232, MARMOTTA-28, MARMOTTA-149 MARMOTTA-236 MARMOTTA-225, MARMOTTA-283, MARMOTTA-208, MARMOTTA-199, MARMOTTA-205, MARMOTTA-155 , MARMOTTA-231, MARMOTTA-110, MARMOTTA-280 and MARMOTTA-215 09:08:18 [wikier]: no new features in the develop branch, please 09:08:23 [sschaffert]: ok, so we do it like this? internal release candidate until Thursday, release candidate preparation on Friday, vote mail to dev@marmotta... on Friday evening 09:08:38 [wikier]: even if we think "it is quite easy" ;-) 09:08:46 [wikier]: sschaffert: sounds good 09:09:01 [wikier]: +1 09:09:10 [sschaffert]: actually I have no ideas for new features at the moment anyways, and since I am the worst person in this ... ;-) 09:09:18 [wikier]: xDDD 09:10:00 [sschaffert]: so any other business? 09:10:32 [wikier]: #note: release planning: internal release candidate until Thursday 25th, release candidate preparation on Friday 26th, vote mail to dev@marmotta... on Friday evening 09:10:32 [wikier]: great # 3. AOB # 09:11:13 [AndyS]: AOB: The next report is October. It would be good to have graduation in that. 09:11:13 [wikier]: so, after this release, we should seriously think about the graduation 09:11:21 [wikier]: exactly 09:11:28 [wikier]: I think we all agree on that 09:11:37 [wikier]: I think we are ready 09:16:28 [sschaffert]: yes 09:16:28 [sschaffert]: +1 09:16:35 [wikier]: AndyS is right, we have to move forward 09:16:35 [wikier]: after incubating, we may need to be more agile planning versions 09:16:35 [wikier]: so planning features 09:16:35 [wikier]: and so on 09:16:35 [sschaffert]: then the time plan is also good with a release until 26th, then a report and the vote for graduation 09:16:35 [wikier]: until now we are trying to put as much as possible for the current version 09:16:35 [wikier]: so the release timing is affected 09:16:52 [wikier]: exactly 09:16:52 [wikier]: this is something we have to handle better 09:16:52 [wikier]: more incremental versions 09:16:52 [sschaffert]: ok, anything else? 09:16:52 [wikier]: but, I think, in the laste 9 months, the code base has been established a lot 09:16:52 [wikier]: no, from my side we can close the meeting 09:16:52 [wikier]: aob guys? 09:16:52 [sschaffert]: no 09:16:52 [wikier]: no from my side 09:16:52 [wikier]: ok 09:16:52 [wikier]: great 09:17:05 [wikier]: thx guys! 09:17:05 [sschaffert]: thanks! 09:17:05 [sschaffert]: and good look with the bugs :) 09:17:05 [wikier]: for all comments and help 09:17:15 [wikier]: hope to be able to follow the plan we have outlined :-) 09:17:15 [wikier]: let's continue in the mailing list 09:17:15 [wikier]: ASFBot: meeting end
