Note that moving the dependabot PR emails to a different list (if it's
even possible) is only part of the problem.
Applying the PR generates a message to the commits list (which cannot
safely be dropped) as well as a message closing the PR.

On Sat, 15 Jun 2024 at 21:03, Phil Steitz <phil.ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 12:27 PM Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hm, would using GitHub Issues instead of Jira make the trail following
> > easier, harder, or the same?
> >
>
> Harder, because then you would have to search yet another place to
> reconstruct history.  But that would be less of an issue over time.  I
> don't see how it would make it better.  What bugs me is not so much having
> to look in multiple places as the degraded discussion.  We never had
> "roadblocks" before - just a convention that we use the dev list to talk
> about substantive issues.  JIRA (or Bugzilla or Github Issues or
> <next_cool_tracker>) is for users to report bugs, ask for enhancements,
> organize work, mark things as done. etc.  commits@, github PR review,
> next_cool_review_board  is to enable review of proposed or committed code.
> The ML is for discussion.  Trying to force all discussion into PR "threads"
> has two big problems: 0) it lacks threading and unless we just drop dev@ it
> fragments discussion 1) it causes things to be discussed late.  It works
> great for trivial changes but for things that significantly change
> performance or behavior or where there are a lot of different ways they
> could be done, it is way better to actually talk about them rather than
> just hack a PR and try to collectively mutate it into something acceptable.
>
> Phil
>
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024, 2:58 PM Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If we want to have everything recorded in one place, then we need to put
> > > up some roadblocks to PRs, the Wiki, and Jira like ... what? Have a PR,
> > > wiki, and Jira template/gate that says... you must discuss your
> > > issue/bug/feature first on the mailing list? It does not feel workable.
> > >
> > > I don't think this is about people being dinosaurs, it's just the
> > > technology and processes that are changing. I really like working with
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub CI builds. I don't want to go back to emails only
> > > just like don't ever want to use an IRC thing.
> > >
> > > Some people don't want to create a GitHub account, so it's Jira and diff
> > > files for them, but that's rare. BUT it gives us a LOT MORE work to
> > > validate a patch compared to GitHub CI where it can use many OSs and Java
> > > version while I'm sleeping :-)
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024, 2:00 PM Phil Steitz <phil.ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 10:19 AM Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Note that it is 1) awkward to say "Let's stop talking about this PR in
> > >> > this PR"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Funny we used to do that all the time in Jira comments.  I guess times
> > >> change.  FWIW, I think it is a step backward in discussion and
> > ultimately
> > >> code and archive quality.  To me it is "awkward" to have to be
> > constantly
> > >> @somebody and not have threads or definitive discussion anywhere.  Works
> > >> fine for trivial changes but does not really work for substantive
> > >> discussion of bigger things.  So we end up never actually having those
> > >> discussions and there is no reasonably searchable archive of the thought
> > >> process that led to the changes going in.  We used to have that and it
> > was
> > >> a useful thing, especially for the more complex components.
> > >>
> > >> Phil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > and 2) "You need to subscribe to a mailing to continue this
> > >> > chat." It's just hard to find when to ask for a switch. Especially
> > >> > when GH has a nice UI to make comments _about code_. Over at Log4j, we
> > >> > now use GitHub issues instead of Jira, furthering the split...
> > >> >
> > >> > Gary
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 12:38 PM Phil Steitz <phil.ste...@gmail.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 10:58 AM Gary D. Gregory <
> > ggreg...@apache.org
> > >> >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > On 2024/06/12 17:17:24 Phil Steitz wrote:
> > >> > > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 7:27 AM sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 14:45, Gary D. Gregory <
> > >> ggreg...@apache.org
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Hello All,
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Here is the draft of our board report for June I plan on
> > >> > submitting
> > >> > > > in a
> > >> > > > > > day or so, feedback is welcome.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > ## Description:
> > >> > > > > > > The mission of Apache Commons is the creation and
> > maintenance
> > >> of
> > >> > Java
> > >> > > > > > focused
> > >> > > > > > > reusable libraries and components
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > ## Project Status:
> > >> > > > > > > Current project status: Ongoing with moderate activity.
> > >> > > > > > > Issues for the board: none.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > ## Membership Data:
> > >> > > > > > > Apache Commons was founded 2007-06-19 (17 years ago)
> > >> > > > > > > There are currently 149 committers and 44 PMC members in
> > this
> > >> > > > project.
> > >> > > > > > > The Committer-to-PMC ratio is roughly 5:2.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Missing from this paragraph is the fact that Commons has
> > enabled
> > >> > > > > > universal commit.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Community changes, past quarter:
> > >> > > > > > > - Claude Warren was added to the PMC on 2024-03-22
> > >> > > > > > > - No new committers. Last addition was Claude Warren on
> > >> > 2022-02-01.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > ## Project Activity:
> > >> > > > > > > Many releases of our components:
> > >> > > > > > >     CONFIGUATION-2.11.0 was released on 2024-06-10.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Is that a new component?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >     NET-3.11.1 was released on 2024-06-10.
> > >> > > > > > >     PARENT-71 was released on 2024-06-10.
> > >> > > > > > >     JEXL-3.4.0 was released on 2024-06-06.
> > >> > > > > > >     NET-3.11.0 was released on 2024-05-31.
> > >> > > > > > >     VALIDATOR-1.9.0 was released on 2024-05-28.
> > >> > > > > > >     JCS-3.2.1 was released on 2024-05-27.
> > >> > > > > > >     DAEMON-1.4.0 was released on 2024-05-24.
> > >> > > > > > >     CLI-1.8.0 was released on 2024-05-23.
> > >> > > > > > >     COMPRESS-1.26.2 was released on 2024-05-23.
> > >> > > > > > >     LOGGING-1.3.2 was released on 2024-05-15.
> > >> > > > > > >     PARENT-70 was released on 2024-05-15.
> > >> > > > > > >     CSV-1.11.0 was released on 2024-05-02.
> > >> > > > > > >     RELEASE-PLUGIN-1.8.2 was released on 2024-04-19.
> > >> > > > > > >     CLI-1.7.0 was released on 2024-04-18.
> > >> > > > > > >     IMAGING-1.0.0-alpha5 was released on 2024-04-18.
> > >> > > > > > >     TEXT-1.12.0 was released on 2024-04-16.
> > >> > > > > > >     BUILD-PLUGIN-1.14.0 was released on 2024-04-15.
> > >> > > > > > >     IO-2.16.1 was released on 2024-04-08.
> > >> > > > > > >     COLLECTIONS-4.5.0-M1 was released on 2024-04-02.
> > >> > > > > > >     IMAGING-1.0.0-alpha4 was released on 2024-04-02.
> > >> > > > > > >     PARENT-69 was released on 2024-04-01.
> > >> > > > > > >     IO-2.16.0 was released on 2024-03-28.
> > >> > > > > > >     LOGGING-1.3.1 was released on 2024-03-24.
> > >> > > > > > >     PARENT-68 was released on 2024-03-23.
> > >> > > > > > >     CONFIGURATION-2.10.1 was released on 2024-03-20.
> > >> > > > > > >     CONFIGURATION-2.10.0 was released on 2024-03-13.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > The above list should probably be sorted
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > ## Community Health:
> > >> > > > > > > We welcomed Claude Warren as our latest PMC member. Mailing
> > >> list
> > >> > > > > > activity has
> > >> > > > > > > increased.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Much of the increased mailing list activity is driven by
> > >> dependabot
> > >> > > > > > PRs, many of which are useless, as it does not take Java
> > >> > compatibility
> > >> > > > > > into account.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > +1
> > >> > > > > I have had to filter out most of the messages and once I do
> > that,
> > >> > there
> > >> > > > is
> > >> > > > > almost no actual discussion on-list.  I am worried that when
> > >> people
> > >> > do
> > >> > > > try
> > >> > > > > to start discussion, the messages are being missed.  I
> > personally
> > >> > see the
> > >> > > > > lack of ml discussion as a problem.  Lots of code changes are
> > >> > happening
> > >> > > > > with no discussion, other than maybe random nits on PRs ending
> > up
> > >> in
> > >> > > > github
> > >> > > > > threads that don't end up organized that well in list archives.
> > >> This
> > >> > > > > problem is not unique to Commons.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Hi Phil,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > We had a discussion a while back about creating a "bot" email list
> > >> but:
> > >> > > > - no one actually proposed anything concrete and did any work
> > >> > > > - we already have bot lists like "commit", "notifications",
> > >> "issues",
> > >> > > > can't we reuse those?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > +1 for that.  How about moving the dependabot things to
> > >> "notifications"?
> > >> > > What exactly do we use that list for now?  I think it is important
> > for
> > >> > > committers to monitor commits but that is not really possible with
> > >> all of
> > >> > > the dependabot spam in there.  I personally filter that to
> > /dev/null.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The problem with github PR comments basically replacing dev@ is a
> > >> bigger
> > >> > > one.  It would be helpful if we could figure out a way to pipe
> > (only)
> > >> the
> > >> > > code discussion messages to the dev list, but I think the better
> > >> answer
> > >> > > there would be to establish the discipline that any discussion
> > beyond
> > >> > nits
> > >> > > gets moved to dev@.  That may be a dinosaur view, but I think it is
> > >> > worth
> > >> > > considering.  I agree with Gilles that fast processing of long-tail
> > >> > > one-shot PRs is useful but misleading when it comes to community
> > >> health.
> > >> > > Steering people to dev@ and actually talking about the code might
> > be
> > >> > > annoying to some in the long tail, but it might net us some new
> > >> > committers,
> > >> > > which IMO is more valuable than a lot of the one shot PRs that we
> > get.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Phil
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > - I don't know if GitHub lets us configure target emails for "I
> > >> > created a
> > >> > > > PR" (or someone commented on a PR), vs. other types of messages.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Gary
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Phil
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Most if not all of our increasing contributions are coming
> > in
> > >> > > > > > > through GitHub pull requests. This is working well for us:
> > >> > GitHub PRs
> > >> > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > continuous integration builds providing great infrastructure
> > >> and
> > >> > > > > > validation of
> > >> > > > > > > PRs and the existing code base. The flip side is that the
> > >> > increase in
> > >> > > > > > GitHub
> > >> > > > > > > usage is matched by a decrease in Jira usage.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Gary
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-h...@commons.apache.org
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org
> > >> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org
> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> >
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org
> > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> >

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org

Reply via email to