On Saturday, March 15, 2025 2:14:12 PM Mountain Standard Time Paul Tagliamonte wrote: > On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 02:06:45PM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote: > > > At this point, why not file the bug and see what the listmasters do? > > > > If Alexander indicates that he would be willing to implement the change > > if I file a bug report then I will do so. > > You disagree with a delegate. You're now attempting to use the "threat" > of a GR to bypass having a real conversation with the person responsible > for enforcing the decision you want?
I thought I was having a real conversation with everyone on debian-devel. > Actual question for you, Soren -- are you happy with how this is going? I am a bit surprise at the vitriol this conversation has generated, meaning not just that some people disagree with my proposal, but that some people have responded with personal attacks instead of focusing on the technical issue being discussed. I have a lot of respect for those who have disagreed with me and focused on the technical issue being discussed in a helpful way. Through them I have learned a number of things about why things are the way they currently are and the workflows that various people use. > Alexander has been incredibly helpul and forward leaning over the years. > Perhaps overworked, but I can't imagine starting the conversation off in > this way is the best way of going about this. > > Why don't you approach the listmaster team in a lower stakes way and > have a conversation understanding what their point of view actually is > rather than trying to guess here. A week ago, before proceeding with the decision to propose a GR, I asked the following question on the debian-devel thread: “At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.” “One way to do so would be a GR. On one hand, using a GR to modify one line of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems like a rather large hammer for a rather small problem. But on the other hand, many people feel strongly enough about this that a GR might be the only mechanism where people will feel like the outcome is fair.” “My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be preferable to a GR to decide this issue?” https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2025/03/msg00199.html Nobody at the time offered any other venue for making a decision, including filing a bug against l.d.o. As I have already mentioned, I don’t think l.d.o is the correct place to make this decision because this policy is larger than just the mailing lists and by this point in the conversation it had become clear to me that those who were against the change felt very strongly about it, so that asking l.d.o to make a decision was unlikely to satisfy them. > I don't think listmaster@ really needs to reply to this with "yes/no", I > think the whole premise and escalation here is a great indicator y'all > need to have a chat off-list or something, which likely needs to be > driven by you, Soren, and not try to keep jamming this through -- that's > only going to build resentment throughout the project and start yet > another stupid rift that we'll infight over for years. I'd love to avoid > that. I really don’t think that anything I have done could be described as jamming anything through. I feel like I opened a respectful discussion on debian-devel. When that reached the stage where it was obvious that a consensus decision was not possible, I moved to the appropriate place for making Debian-wide decisions, which is the GR. -- Soren Stoutner [email protected]
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