cc. to commun...@debian.org because I'm explaining CT involvment. On Fri, Dec 22, 2023 at 12:47:51PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 03:49:13PM -0800, David Christensen wrote: > > On 12/21/23 14:27, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > > Posting well-intentioned private replies back to the list is not > > > appropriate. > >
Hi, Thanks to those folk on the list who have contributed helpful comments. Let me try and explain myself (and actually the Debian Community team) a bit more clearly. * Public list * This list: * Isn't moderated - anyone can post. That's deliberate. * Is a public list - as far as possible, discussions here work best if they are all in public. * Is hosted on Debian infrastructure and subject to Debian rules. There's one justification in trying to advise good conduct here on the list: this is "Debian space" so Debian folk are able to request good behaviour in Debian-run areas. Offenders can be advised on better behaviour - on or off list, can be deny-listed for a period or just deny-listed completely. That can apply to all Debian-owned/run resources - so mailing lists, IRC, wiki. * Abuse* That doesn't need to be done very often but it does happen. Anyone can report abuse to the community team (commun...@debian.org) or contact the Debian listmasters who run the Debian lists. ** Community Team involvement ** It happens that I hang out on this list and I'm also a Community Team member - the FAQ is meant to try and explain how the list is supposed to work when it all runs smoothly. I can't *force* people to follow it: it's mostly suggestions that would be helpful if followed. If you want some more idea of how the Community Team operates, you can hear Steve Macintyre and myself explaining in the latest mini-Debconf video: http://laotzu.ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2023/MiniDebConf-Cambridge/meet-the-community-team.webm * Why the list and not private emails? * If possible, it's better to keep the list and all emails public so that there's no risk of bad conduct/bullying being hidden in private emails. If you're sending an email to the list / answering someone else's list email - make sure that you put the list address first. One reason to add someone in as a direct in-person email might be if they say in their post that they are not subscribed. If so, also make that clear at the top of the email that will go to the list. "Also sending off list copy to the original poster because they may not be subscribed" or something similar > > Please clarify how the Debian Community Team wishes us to respond to the > > following use-case: > > > > 1. User A posts to the list. This post may start or continue a thread. > > Reply to user A on-list unless there are particular compelling circumstances. > > 2. User B replies to #1 directly to user A. All content is suitable for > > the list. There is no statement of "off-list", "private", etc.. A > > reasonable mailing list reader would conclude that the reply was intended > > for the list, but was send off-list due to human error. > Try not to do this :) It *is* easily done with some mailers. If you realise that you B have done it and you really meant it to go to the list, copy/forward *your* email to A to the list with a note at the top: "Sorry - I meant for this to go to the list: here's my response to A" That makes sure that it goes to the list so there's no gap in flow or understanding. If it doesn't go to the whole list at some point and contains vital information for problem solving - there's a problem. > We are not robots. We all make human errors (as opposed to robot > errors). I think you have mostly answered your own question with the > framing of "A reasonable mailing list reader". > > The point is if you reply on-list to private mail that you think is > fine and it turns out that you included something that was personal, > people might get offended and that's on you, so if you are acting > reasonably you'd like to minimise that, so I think it's self-solving > and you don't need this documented in a state machine. > If you do the above and A comes back to you directly because they just respond to you as person to person, you can ask them politely if they would mind copying this to the list so that there's continuity. It's sometimes possible to mess up misread a personal email, think it came from the list and send something private back to the mailing list. That can be deeply personal information: in some sense, avoiding personal emails and sending them all via the list makes it slightly less likely for that to happen. We are not robots: we're human beings and social animals. A community does build up. If you want to ask after someone's health / wish them a happy birthday / commiserate on the fortunes of the England cricket team - that's OK, but that's probably personal and off-list. Tag it with "I saw you were on the list: this is me reaching out to you but it's a private off-list email ... " or something to make the boundaries clear. > In my opinion if someone makes a good faith error they shouldn't get > too badly punished, so I'd be disappointed in Debian if someone > posted what they thought was innocuous correspondence back to the > list, were incorrect and got heavily penalised for it. > If you do make a good faith error, admit it, apologise, try and make sure that you don't do this again. List archives are public and there's ~3000 subscribers at the moment so it's a learning experience. > Also bearing in mind that what passes for "heavily penalised" on > this list is probably "Andy Cater posts a finger-wagging response > about you"¹ as the full extent of the repercussions. There are > regular posters here who have posted outright, inarguably racist and > bigoted views, and admitted so (proudly, in some cases), and yet > they are still here. So you know, a sense of proportion. > If someone is sufficiently toxic, they can be barred at a moment's notice. Debian isn't a particular censorship organisation: as the FAQ makes fairly clear, many things are very off topic here like partisan politics. If someone is new, they will be given some amount of posting time to learn the ropes. If the Community Team think that someone is going over the top, we may discuss it privately, issue a warning, talk to listmasters. We're also volunteers, trying to mediate and be dispassionate and even-handed at the end of a working day or whatever - if readers of the list think we've missed something, email commun...@debian.org. [And yes, it's sometimes tempting to fire back something immediate and I need to take my own advice to not respond to every post on every topic - the help of the contributors on this list in keeping people on topic and threads short is much appreciated. For the 30 or so regular posters, there's another couple of thousand out there on the sidelines watching how this list plays out.] > Thanks, > Andy > > ¹ This isn't a criticism of Andy Cater. To even do that much is > quite difficult, here. > All justified criticism gratefully received with suggestions for improvement welcomed - it's a group effort. If anyone wants to "reply all" to this message, please remove the cc. to commun...@debian.org :) With every good wish, as ever, Andy Cater [amacater@debian] > -- > https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting >
