On 10-08-2021 10:59, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote: >> On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote: >> > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads >> > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to >> > find; there's just so many of them. >> >> That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the >> situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage >> required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it >> accurately. >> Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'. > > I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in > excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't > conducive to user support. > > And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a > conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting > other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become > totally unrelated to Debian and its use. > > For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to > spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just > saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these > out right now. > >> Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything not Debian related >> within each email? > > I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes, > not while this is the support venue. > >> Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not >> `Debian-related'? > > I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not > asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not > talking about normal conversational responses to support queries > being banned. > > I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from > being about Debian. > >> Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total >> lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of. >> >> > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current >> > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do >> > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my >> > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for. >> >> And who isn't? > > Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem > that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do > think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't > think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere. > >> > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through >> > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a >> > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers >> > who come across it. >> >> No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than >> `moderators'. >> The format changes nothing. > > I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said > "moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation, > which on a Stack site is mostly the community. > > I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive > comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the > format changes nothing. > >> You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might >> see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place. > > The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place > publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread > is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment. > > We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable, > ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support > question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one > manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but > putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good > that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being > delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction > just has the weight of one email in a thread. > > Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at > all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post > just as often as you can. > > A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a > good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so > well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who > hammers their point home most forcefully or most often. > > The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality > answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage > in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the > best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns > in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is > better for it. > >> > There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a >> > search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack >> > Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists. >> >> Quite often that's the case, and so it should be. > > If you agree with this point, what is your opposition to such a > thing being the primary user support venue of Debian? As in direct > support queries to such a thing and leave debian-user basically as > it is? > >> > New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a >> > huge impediment to getting their problems solved. >> >> If they can't handle the most basic use of a mail agent, they can't do >> anything. > > This feels really elitist and can be used to counter any attempt to > make things easier or better for unskilled users. > > You know, just because we paid our dues over the years having a hard > time gathering knowledge, it doesn't mean that everyone else should > too, almost as if it's some sort of trial to check they are worthy. > I feel that's generally true but even moreso when you consider that > by making it hard for people who aren't like you, you tend to only > recruit people who are like you. > > If it's desirable to have some sort of exclusive club of users who > put enough effort in to have earned the right to ask questions and > participate in debate then fair enough, no reason why that can't > exist. But should it be where the Debian project directs its users > first and foremost? > > In terms of numbers of questions asked and answers accepted per > day, Ask Ubuntu does some really good numbers you know. > >> > People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift >> > through it all. >> >> `have to sift through it all' and `They are not hard to >> find; there's just so many of them' - do make up your mind. > > Come on now. Imagine coming across an unfamiliar list's archive, > seeing a subject line that might be related to a problem you're > having, and then tens or hundreds of responses that seem to diverge > away from that topic but you can never be quite sure whether they > will return or not. > > That's a very different scenario from me saying, "just look back > through the list recently and you'll find many examples of > completely off-topic postings". > >> they generally have the addition of something ;like `Off-Topic' in >> the header. >> So, if they're easy to recognise, where's the problem? > > I don't believe that new users do find them easy to recognise, nor > that casual archive browsers appreciate the diversions from topic. > > I don't believe that new users do appreciate having some irrelevant > part of their post picked up on and turned into sprawling > sub-thread that isn't even about Debian let alone their question. > > I don't believe that most users benefit when such threads go way out > of control and result in code of conduct violations that are never > addressed. > > I think there is a relatively small group, out of the thousands > subscribed here, that enjoy those diversions and perpetuating them, > and that it really only serves them. > > So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be > good to try separating the user support from the debate club.
I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time. The goal posts are moved around at convenience, rather in than any serious manner at resolving an issue that is minor, if even existent. Cheers! Harry. -- `Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth'. -- Albert Einstein
