On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 4:12 AM Marco Möller
<ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote:
>
> On 09.06.20 23:55, Default User wrote:
> > (...)
> > Now, a final note.
> >
> > When I did my main install, it was a day or two before the release of
> > Buster 10.0. I immediately upgraded to Unstable. But it is still
> > originally based upon Stretch. It was set up with both root and user
> > passwords. And I use good quality, long passwords.
> > : )
> >
> > Here's the point:
> > I can do everything requiring elevated privileges just by using the
> > user password, and sudo in a terminal as needed. Never need to use the
> > root password.
> >
> > Well, when I did an alternate Buster Stable install on a spare drive,
> > I was surprised (not happily) that when running from that setup,
> > various programs demand the root password, and will not accept the
> > user password. So, now I have to remember not one, but two "good"
> > passwords. And try to determine which one is being asked for. And
> > re-remember both every time they are changed.
> >
> > I am guessing this has to do with a change made for Buster. Perhaps
> > it is a "security thing".
>
>
> Others might correct me, I am still learning and might be confused about
> things, but this is how I understand the situation be now:
> In the past I thought that upgrading from release to release would be
> all what someone good desire, especially when the upgrade process is
> well designed and not breaking things. The Debian team is really doing
> an excellent job to care for the release upgrade not being likely to
> break things.
> I then noticed that a release upgrade brings in more than simply
> upgrading many packages and renewing version numbers, the latter being
> what the in-release upgrades already do. Worth noting is that in a new
> release additionally old concepts are deprecated or substituted, and new
> concepts become introduced! Besides you having mentioned systemd already
> here giving you another example: remember the (in 2015 ?) announced
> changes in the use of the root directory structure concerning the
> philosophy on which data is supposed to land in which directory
> ("filesystem hierarchy standard"). For now there are introduced symbolic
> links from the old directory locations to the new locations, so that
> software will not break right away if still not updated to respect the
> new concept. If you would for long time roll from release to release,
> then I imagine that conceptual changes like this will not become visible
> in your system, and some time in the future the backward compatibility
> to old concepts might need to be cut. You coming from a Debian/stretch
> installation and having rolled upgrades via Debian/buster to
> Debian/bullseye might still not find these changes cleanly applied.
> Therefore, in order to keep up also with the conceptional changes, it is
> worth to consider a fresh installation as the alternative to a release
> upgrade. This is why many of us maintain detailed notes on package
> installations and system configurations, in order to be able to
> re-install quickly and thus also being well prepared for a new release
> installation instead of a rolling upgrade.
> (You are more then welcome to correct me if I misunderstood things ;-) !)
> Best wishes, Marco.
On Jun 10, 2020, 2:36 AM Andrei POPESCU, <andreimpope...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are making some claims above without providing even one example.
>
Well, . . . yes.
>
>There might be simple explanations and / or solutions for what you
>experience...
>
Perhaps. Problems can seem so simple, once they are solved.
On Jun 10, 2020, 4:12 AM, Marco Möller
<ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote:
> Others might correct me, I am still learning and might be confused about
> things, but this is how I understand the situation be now:
> In the past I thought that upgrading from release to release would be
> all what someone good desire, especially when the upgrade process is
> well designed and not breaking things. The Debian team is really doing
> an excellent job to care for the release upgrade not being likely to
> break things.
> I then noticed that a release upgrade brings in more than simply
> upgrading many packages and renewing version numbers, the latter being
> what the in-release upgrades already do. Worth noting is that in a new
> release additionally old concepts are deprecated or substituted, and new
> concepts become introduced! Besides you having mentioned systemd already
> here giving you another example: remember the (in 2015 ?) announced
> changes in the use of the root directory structure concerning the
> philosophy on which data is supposed to land in which directory
> ("filesystem hierarchy standard"). For now there are introduced symbolic
> links from the old directory locations to the new locations, so that
> software will not break right away if still not updated to respect the
> new concept. If you would for long time roll from release to release,
> then I imagine that conceptual changes like this will not become visible
> in your system, and some time in the future the backward compatibility
> to old concepts might need to be cut. You coming from a Debian/stretch
> installation and having rolled upgrades via Debian/buster to
> Debian/bullseye might still not find these changes cleanly applied.
> Therefore, in order to keep up also with the conceptional changes, it is
> worth to consider a fresh installation as the alternative to a release
> upgrade. This is why many of us maintain detailed notes on package
> installations and system configurations, in order to be able to
> re-install quickly and thus also being well prepared for a new release
> installation instead of a rolling upgrade.
> (You are more then welcome to correct me if I misunderstood things ;-) !)
> Best wishes, Marco.
Marco, no correction is needed. I agree with you. I run Unstable for
two main reasons:
1) to get relatively up to date packages.
2) to avoid reinstalling.
The trade-off? Some instability, at least. And just plain
"messiness". (Right now, I have 14 packages that can not, or should
not, be upgraded - until fixes are made by the developers.)
I do resent having to choose between old but stable, and new but unstable.
Unfortunately, as you have correctly observed, one will eventually
have to re-install. For me, it is not a lot of fun. In a better
world, things would "just work", and continue to "just work". But
this is not a better world. So, we just do the best we can.
