On Sat 29 Feb 2020 at 21:45:48 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote: > On 2020-02-29 20:20, David Wright wrote: > > On Thu 27 Feb 2020 at 17:13:26 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote: > > > On 2020-02-27 09:41, Lee wrote: > > > > > > [The free/non-free distinction] ... is well-explained, and in fuzzy > > > principle I like the explanation. In functional terms, it only became an > > > issue for me when the image I was installing paused to ask for a disk > > > with needed wifi drivers. (See the thread title.) So I have two problems > > > with free/non-free - one philosophical/operational, one regarding the > > > image installation script: > > > > > > 1) If one can only make a working system with "non-free" drivers, what > > > is the alternative? - a non-working system? What is the point of being a > > > stickler about a "free" installation if that installation itself > > > /requests/ "non-free" components? [Are all OEM hardware drivers by > > > definition "non-free"?] > > > > The premise of your question is wrong. None of my three desktop > > machines needs any non-free driver. One uses a firmware blob for > > sound, which it never saw until it was 12 years old when I ditched > > its predecessor, a Tucson mobo'd PC. I don't think Debian has ever > > carried it (Yamaha ymfpci) in the timespan over which I've used it. > > But (as noted above) the "free" installation paused to /ask/ for wifi drivers > for my Thinkpad, from "non-free" media: > > > "If you have such media available now, insert it and continue." > > I have to agree with that script: a Thinkpad without wifi could fairly be > called a non-working system... which comes back to my two-part first > question, about the philosophical/operational aspect of the "free" commitment: > - Is it a choice between a free non-working system or a non-free working > system? > - Are OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?
OK, I was talking about systems in general. Once you're looking at a specific system, particularly a laptop, then it's much more likely that you'll need either some non-free drivers or at least some non-free firmware to get a fully functioning system. AFAICT my laptops are only using firmware that's non-free, but that might be because even the newest is over 6 years old, so there's been time for free drivers to be acquired or written. As every computer I've ever run has either been a loan or inherited, I don't get to choose the hardware I have to deal with. In the past I was given a Zyxel G302 wireless card, with which I could only use a windows driver in ndiswrapper, but I don't use that now because Powerlines work better. But there are people here who post suggestions for hardware items that have free drivers available, if that's a major concern of yours. They seem to be items that I don't usually see in shops, so they probably have to be ordered online. > > I have no idea whether this is true, but there might be some intention > > of evolving from cdimage to images, if only because using the term CD > > to cover DVDs and USB sticks etc is confusing to some, according to > > some posts here. > > It /is/ true, but I like your speculation that the directory branch "cdimage" > might evolve into the branch "images". However, of course both branches are > under the subdomain _"cdimage"_[.debian.org], FWIW. Once I feel comfortable > that I have a working grasp of the issues, I will write to the Debian CD team > for comment (and possibly to see if I can assist). > > > > > > > ... I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order. > > > > > > > > Whereas I think the issue is that most linux documentation assumes too > > > > much background knowledge. But I suppose that's what the mailing > > > > lists are for - a shortcut for finding out what info you're missing :) > > > > > > That's a good point, but I actually don't mind the OS learning curve ... > > > My questions here have been about the Debian ecosystem and installation > > > quirks, and I think I have learned some things that could be tidied up to > > > make life simpler (which, among other things, could only help my > > > objective of offering people a Windows escape route). With all the help > > > received on this list, I have learned a meta-lesson: that the place to > > > explore those apparent 'lessons learned' is with the Debian CD team. > > > > I would agree that the paths through the web pages might be made a bit > > more logical; not just the ISOs but also the md5sums etc. But I > > imagine the d-i people have a lot on their (few) hands keeping up > > with building the d-i software itself (if indeed it's the same people > > responsible). > > I don't doubt that, David. Still, I think I might contribute something, and > the answers here contribute to that thought. That would probably be much appreciated. Cheers, David.
