Martin Steigerwald <mar...@lichtvoll.de> writes: > Am Montag, 22. September 2014, 23:50:46 schrieb lee: >> Martin Steigerwald <mar...@lichtvoll.de> writes: >> >> Do you really think they will be able to prevent all the other >> software from depending on a particular init system or parts of it? > > Well… thats to be taken upstream, isn´t it?
Then why don't the developers or the distributions do just that? Nobody cares when one user or another questions whether it's a good idea to depend on systemd, and it might be much different if a lot of developers and/or whole distributions would, in the interest of their users, question this dependency and refuse their support eventually until the issues systemd and software depending on it brings about. >> > So I don´t think systemd upstream has the power to control Debian. >> > >> > Debian is a community project. No single upstream is going to control it. >> >> Gimp already depends on (parts of) systemd in current stable. Do you >> know a way to install gimp without installing (parts of) systemd? And >> gimp is not the only thing with a dependency like this. >> >> Supporting systemd and making systemd even the default init system opens >> the door for it to increasingly take control of software totally >> unrelated to an init system a bit wider. It seems that this door cannot >> be closed anymore. > > Didn´t know about GIMP. Apparently I'm wrong about gimp depending on systemd. I need to look into that when I have more time. > Adopting it encourages this behavour. Yes, it's like self-perpetuating. Instead of thinking the issue through, people are much more like "hey, it's there anyway, so what". Just one day they might wake up and find out that it was a very bad idea to depend on systemd, and then it'll be difficult to do without. > Yet, there is still choice. You can avoid upstream who depend on systemd. > Debian itself still is able to run without systemd as far as I know. Try to run Fedora without systemd ... Just to give you an idea (sorry for the length): [root@yun:/etc/shorewall]$ repoquery --whatrequires systemd 389-admin-0:1.1.35-1.fc20.x86_64 389-ds-base-0:1.3.2.7-1.fc20.x86_64 389-ds-base-0:1.3.2.23-1.fc20.x86_64 3proxy-0:0.6.1-17.fc20.x86_64 BackupPC-0:3.2.1-15.fc20.x86_64 BackupPC-0:3.3.0-2.fc20.x86_64 Canna-0:3.7p3-40.fc20.x86_64 Canna-0:3.7p3-41.fc20.x86_64 LogService-0:2.8.0-4.fc20.x86_64 MAKEDEV-0:3.24-13.fc20.x86_64 MySQL-zrm-0:2.2.0-15.fc20.noarch MySQL-zrm-0:3.0-3.fc20.noarch NetworkManager-1:0.9.9.0-20.git20131003.fc20.x86_64 NetworkManager-1:0.9.9.0-44.git20131003.fc20.x86_64 OpenIPMI-0:2.0.19-9.fc20.x86_64 PackageKit-0:0.8.13-1.fc20.x86_64 PackageKit-0:0.8.17-1.fc20.x86_64 Pound-0:2.6-7.fc20.x86_64 VirtualBox-0:4.3.4-1.fc20.x86_64 VirtualBox-0:4.3.16-1.fc20.x86_64 abrt-0:2.1.9-1.fc20.x86_64 abrt-0:2.2.2-1.fc20.x86_64 accountsservice-0:0.6.35-3.fc20.x86_64 accountsservice-0:0.6.35-4.fc20.x86_64 acpid-0:2.0.20-2.fc20.x86_64 acpid-0:2.0.21-1.fc20.x86_64 ahcpd-0:0.53-6.fc20.x86_64 ahcpd-0:0.53-7.fc20.x86_64 aic94xx-firmware-0:30-6.fc20.noarch aiccu-0:2007.01.15-17.fc20.x86_64 akmods-0:0.5.1-3.fc19.noarch alsa-firmware-0:1.0.27-2.fc20.noarch alsa-tools-firmware-0:1.0.27-3.fc20.x86_64 alsa-utils-0:1.0.27.2-3.fc20.x86_64 alsa-utils-0:1.0.27.2-4.fc20.x86_64 am-utils-5:6.1.5-29.fc20.x86_64 am-utils-5:6.1.5-30.fc20.x86_64 amanda-0:3.3.3-6.fc20.x86_64 amanda-0:3.3.3-10.fc20.x86_64 ampr-ripd-0:1.11-1.fc20.x86_64 amprd-0:1.4-2.fc20.x86_64 and-0:1.2.2-20.fc20.x86_64 android-tools-0:20130123git98d0789-2.fc20.x86_64 anyterm-0:1.1.29-20.fc20.x86_64 apcupsd-0:3.14.10-13.fc20.x86_64 apcupsd-0:3.14.12-1.fc20.x86_64 apg-0:2.3.0b-21.fc20.x86_64 aprsd-0:2.2.5-15.6.fc19.5.x86_64 aprsdigi-0:3.5.1-2.fc20.x86_64 apt-0:0.5.15lorg3.95-9.git522.1.fc20.x86_64 apt-0:0.5.15lorg3.95-10.git522.1.fc20.x86_64 apt-cacher-ng-0:0.7.26-2.fc20.x86_64 argus-0:3.0.6.1-3.fc20.x86_64 arptables_jf-0:0.0.8-36.fc20.x86_64 arpwatch-14:2.1a15-30.fc20.x86_64 asterisk-0:11.5.1-2.fc20.x86_64 asterisk-0:11.10.2-2.fc20.x86_64 at-0:3.1.13-13.fc20.x86_64 at-0:3.1.13-14.fc20.x86_64 atop-0:2.0.2-2.fc20.x86_64 audio-entropyd-0:2.0.3-5.fc20.x86_64 audio-entropyd-0:2.0.3-6.fc20.x86_64 audit-0:2.3.2-1.fc20.x86_64 audit-0:2.4-1.fc20.x86_64 authd-0:1.4.3-40.fc20.x86_64 authhub-0:0.1.2-3.fc19.x86_64 autodir-0:0.99.9-16.fc20.x86_64 autofs-1:5.0.7-29.fc20.x86_64 autofs-1:5.0.7-40.fc20.x86_64 autotest-framework-server-0:0.14.4-3.fc20.noarch autotest-framework-server-0:0.16.0-2.fc20.noarch avahi-0:0.6.31-21.fc20.x86_64 awstats-0:7.1.1-5.fc20.noarch b43-openfwwf-0:5.2-10.fc20.noarch babeld-0:1.4.2-3.fc20.x86_64 babeld-0:1.4.3-1.fc20.x86_64 bacula-client-0:5.2.13-17.fc20.x86_64 bacula-client-0:5.2.13-18.fc20.x86_64 bacula-director-0:5.2.13-17.fc20.x86_64 bacula-director-0:5.2.13-18.fc20.x86_64 bacula-storage-0:5.2.13-17.fc20.x86_64 bacula-storage-0:5.2.13-18.fc20.x86_64 bacula2-client-0:2.4.4-16.fc20.x86_64 bacula2-client-0:2.4.4-17.fc20.x86_64 bandwidthd-0:2.0.1-24.fc20.x86_64 bcfg2-0:1.3.2-2.fc20.noarch bcfg2-0:1.3.3-5.fc20.noarch bcfg2-server-0:1.3.2-2.fc20.noarch bcfg2-server-0:1.3.3-5.fc20.noarch beanstalkd-0:1.9-1.fc20.x86_64 bfa-firmware-0:3.2.21.1-3.fc20.noarch bind-32:9.9.4-8.fc20.x86_64 bind-32:9.9.4-15.P2.fc20.x86_64 bind-chroot-32:9.9.4-8.fc20.x86_64 bind-chroot-32:9.9.4-15.P2.fc20.x86_64 bind-sdb-32:9.9.4-8.fc20.x86_64 bind-sdb-32:9.9.4-15.P2.fc20.x86_64 bind10-0:1.1.0-10.fc20.x86_64 bind10-0:1.1.0-11.fc20.x86_64 biosdevname-0:0.5.0-2.fc20.x86_64 bip-0:0.8.9-1.fc20.x86_64 bip-0:0.8.9-2.fc20.x86_64 bird-0:1.3.11-1.fc20.x86_64 bird6-0:1.3.11-1.fc20.x86_64 bitlbee-0:3.2-6.fc20.x86_64 bitlbee-0:3.2.2-3.fc20.x86_64 bluez-0:5.12-1.fc20.x86_64 bluez-0:5.18-1.fc20.x86_64 boa-0:0.94.14-0.21.rc21.fc20.x86_64 boinc-client-0:7.0.65-2.git79b00ef.fc20.x86_64 boinc-client-0:7.2.42-1.gitdd0d630.fc20.x86_64 bootparamd-0:0.17-39.fc20.x86_64 brltty-0:4.5-9.fc20.x86_64 bro-0:1.5.1-9.fc20.x86_64 btkbdd-0:1.3-5.fc20.x86_64 bwbar-0:1.2.3-15.fc20.x86_64 cachefilesd-0:0.10.5-4.fc19.x86_64 cego-0:2.19.11-1.fc20.x86_64 cego-0:2.20.9-1.fc20.x86_64 certmaster-0:0.28-7.fc20.noarch certmonger-0:0.68-1.fc20.x86_64 certmonger-0:0.75.14-1.fc20.x86_64 cgdcbxd-0:1.0.1-3.fc20.x86_64 cherokee-0:1.2.103-3.fc20.x86_64 chrony-0:1.29-1.fc20.x86_64 chrony-0:1.30-2.fc20.x86_64 chunkd-0:0.8-0.14.gf9c5b967.fc20.x86_64 clamav-milter-systemd-0:0.98-2.fc20.noarch clamav-milter-systemd-0:0.98.4-1.fc20.noarch clamav-scanner-systemd-0:0.98-2.fc20.noarch clamav-scanner-systemd-0:0.98.4-1.fc20.noarch clamav-server-systemd-0:0.98-2.fc20.noarch clamav-server-systemd-0:0.98.4-1.fc20.noarch clamsmtp-0:1.10-12.fc20.x86_64 cld-0:0.8-0.14.gf9c5b967.fc20.x86_64 cloud-init-0:0.7.2-7.fc20.noarch cloud-init-0:0.7.2-10.fc20.x86_64 cntlm-0:0.92.3-3.fc20.x86_64 cntlm-0:0.92.3-5.fc20.x86_64 cobbler-0:2.4.0-2.fc20.noarch cobbler-0:2.6.3-1.fc20.noarch collectd-0:5.3.0-5.fc20.x86_64 collectd-0:5.4.1-3.fc20.x86_64 collectl-0:3.6.9-1.fc20.noarch collectl-0:3.7.3-1.fc20.noarch colord-0:1.1.4-1.fc20.x86_64 colord-0:1.1.7-1.fc20.x86_64 community-mysql-0:5.5.34-1.fc20.x86_64 community-mysql-0:5.5.38-3.fc20.x86_64 community-mysql-server-0:5.5.34-1.fc20.x86_64 community-mysql-server-0:5.5.38-3.fc20.x86_64 compat-qpid-cpp-server-0:0.24-19.fc20.x86_64 condor-0:8.1.1-0.3.fc20.x86_64 conman-0:0.2.7-5.fc20.x86_64 connman-0:1.13-2.fc20.x86_64 connman-0:1.21-1.fc20.x86_64 conntrack-tools-0:1.4.2-1.fc20.x86_64 conntrack-tools-0:1.4.2-3.fc20.x86_64 conserver-0:8.1.18-9.fc20.x86_64 conserver-0:8.1.20-1.fc20.x86_64 copr-backend-0:1.26-1.fc20.noarch copr-backend-0:1.32-1.fc20.noarch corosync-0:2.3.2-1.fc20.x86_64 corosync-0:2.3.3-2.fc20.x86_64 couchdb-0:1.3.1-3.fc20.x86_64 couchdb-0:1.6.0-9.fc20.x86_64 crda-0:1.1.3_2013.02.13-4.fc20.x86_64 crda-0:1.1.3_2014.06.13-1.fc20.x86_64 cronie-0:1.4.11-4.fc20.x86_64 crossfire-0:1.70.0-7.fc20.x86_64 ctdb-0:2.4-1.fc20.x86_64 cumin-0:0.1.5776-2.fc20.noarch cups-1:1.7.0-4.fc20.x86_64 cups-1:1.7.4-3.fc20.x86_64 cups-filters-0:1.0.41-4.fc20.x86_64 cups-filters-0:1.0.53-5.fc20.x86_64 cvs-0:1.11.23-33.fc20.x86_64 cwdaemon-0:0.9.4-16.fc19.x86_64 cyrus-imapd-0:2.4.17-6.fc20.x86_64 cyrus-sasl-0:2.1.26-14.fc20.x86_64 dansguardian-0:2.10.1.1-11.fc19.x86_64 darkhttpd-0:1.9-4.fc20.x86_64 darkhttpd-0:1.10-1.fc20.x86_64 darkstat-0:3.0.718-3.fc20.x86_64 dbmail-0:3.0.2-7.fc20.x86_64 dbus-1:1.6.12-1.fc20.x86_64 dbus-1:1.6.12-9.fc20.x86_64 ddclient-0:3.8.1-8.fc20.noarch ddclient-0:3.8.1-9.fc20.noarch deltacloud-core-0:1.1.3-1.fc20.noarch deluge-daemon-0:1.3.6-4.fc20.noarch denyhosts-0:2.6-29.fc20.noarch derby-0:10.9.1.0-6.fc20.noarch device-mapper-0:1.02.82-3.fc20.x86_64 device-mapper-0:1.02.85-1.fc20.x86_64 device-mapper-event-0:1.02.82-3.fc20.x86_64 device-mapper-event-0:1.02.85-1.fc20.x86_64 device-mapper-multipath-0:0.4.9-55.fc20.x86_64 device-mapper-multipath-0:0.4.9-56.fc20.x86_64 dhcp-12:4.2.5-26.fc20.x86_64 dhcp-12:4.2.7-2.fc20.x86_64 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xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-1:331.79-2.fc20.x86_64 xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-1:331.89-2.fc20.x86_64 xorg-x11-server-Xorg-0:1.14.4-5.fc20.x86_64 xorg-x11-server-Xorg-0:1.14.4-11.fc20.x86_64 xorg-x11-xdm-1:1.1.11-6.fc20.x86_64 xpilot-ng-server-0:4.7.3-4.fc20.x86_64 xrdp-0:0.6.0-0.8.fc20.x86_64 xrdp-0:0.6.1-2.fc20.x86_64 yadifa-0:1.0.3-2.fc20.x86_64 ypbind-3:1.37.1-7.fc20.x86_64 ypbind-3:1.37.1-8.fc20.x86_64 ypserv-0:2.31-5.fc20.x86_64 ypserv-0:2.32-2.fc20.x86_64 yum-cron-0:3.4.3-152.fc20.noarch yum-updatesd-1:0.9-15.fc20.noarch zabbix-agent-0:2.0.9-1.fc20.x86_64 zabbix-agent-0:2.0.12-3.fc20.x86_64 zabbix-proxy-0:2.0.9-1.fc20.x86_64 zabbix-proxy-0:2.0.12-3.fc20.x86_64 zabbix-server-0:2.0.9-1.fc20.x86_64 zabbix-server-0:2.0.12-3.fc20.x86_64 zfs-fuse-0:0.7.0-15.fc20.x86_64 znc-0:1.2-2.fc20.x86_64 znc-0:1.4-1.fc20.x86_64 zoneminder-0:1.25.0-15.fc20.x86_64 zookeeper-server-0:3.4.5-12.fc20.noarch zvbi-0:0.2.33-16.fc20.x86_64 I doubt you could get the system booted without systemd. Mind you, that's only packages directly depending on systemd. You have to add to that all the indirect dependencies. Fedora does already depend on systemd --- and I would say completely. Or do you see a choice here? > I dislike this black and white thinking. Do I see dangers with systemd? Yes, > I > do. Do I also see the advantages it brings? Yes, I do. I still don't see any advantages. Even if there are (technical) advantages, the disadvantages outweigh them. > Its not black, nor white, but something in between. One thing systemd seems to be really good at is making for a single point of failure. I imagine that many people forget that "operating within normal parameters" is a boring state. Things get interesting when something doesn't work or when a modification needs to be made. A large part of the quality of a software is determined by how well and easily it can be dealt with in such instances, and one of the most important factors is the quality of the documentation. Systemd looks extremely bad in that regard. And I cannot just remove it and/or use something else. When pulseaudio or gimp don't work, I can remove them and use alsa (which I do) or imagemagick. When exim doesn't work (and it always worked in the last 20 years or so), I can remove it and use another MTA. But systemd is not removable and cannot be replaced with an alternative. So obviously, it's a bad thing. The fewer software that depends on it, the better --- but more and more software does. > And still I think its important to take this upstream. Upstream, from the users point of view, are the makers of the distribution in the first place. I can't very well make a bug report against systemd directly because Debian has decided to support it, can I. That's not a problem of systemd. To get involved with everything seems to have been a design decision of systemd. What do you expect will happen when I make a bug report directly against systemd, explaining them that it's broken by design? Or should I make a bug report against the X server because it depends on systemd? Or the other way round? Or perhaps against cups instead? > Or to *help*. Make a logind that does not depend on systemd. Offer it to the > upstreams that need it. I'm sure it would be ignored or rejected --- even if I had the knowledge to make anything like that and was able to keep up with what other ppl are doing. >> Experiencing that the devs of systemd refuse to fix their >> misunderstanding of what "disabled" means, looking at the poor >> documentation of systemd and having found it ridiculously troublesome to >> accomplish a very simple task --- i. e. getting squid-2.7 started and >> shut down correctly --- is enough for me to utterly dislike it. > > I was able to get atop and atopacctd started just fine with systemd service > files in preparation for atop 2.1 debian package (which will also have init > scripts). I had some specialized questions and was answered that just nice on > IRC on debian-systemd channel. I never bothered to ask because nobody on the fedora-users list would have known anyway, or if, they wouldn't have answered. I didn't have any specialised questions, either. I simply wanted squid to be started and stopped correctly. With sysv init, that would have been really easy without asking anyone. So where's the advantage of systemd when you want to have a daemon started and stopped? >> Other issues have been pointed out in the discussion here and >> otherwhere, and I'm finding them much worse. > > Actually I raised the resistance and opposotion against systemd issue on > upstream mailing list, as I believe there its much more useful than here: > > [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and > resistance > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html And what was the answer? That they don't care? > So my challenge to you and all others who dislike things about systemd: > > Voice your concerns upstream. systemd-devel is a mailinglist anyone can > subscribe to. Another mailing list is just what I need ;) You know, I don't care about systemd. Debian shouldn't use and shouldn't support it other than as a choice for those who would like to use it. When the makers of systemd finally fix the bug with their misunderstanding of what "disabled" means, I'd take that for a good sign and might be willing to talk to them. > For it to be most effective: Be polite, be gentle, but also be clear, > descriptive and detailed with your concerns. Give concrete examples. > > > So my challenge is to you: > > *Act* for change. > > Instead of just venting your frustration here, which will do nothing, > absolutely and utterly nothing for any change! But basically the opposite, > the > more energy you put into venting engaging here in a ton of threads, the less > energy you will have to bring forth change. Why would you expect that anything would change? My time would be spent much better looking for an alternative. The only reason I'm using Debian again is because I couldn't get xen to work with anything but Debian. I kicked out Debian when they left the users stranded with their stupid brokenarch. Debian isn't going to make its way on my desktop again. As to systemd, I'm sure that its makers are aware of the issues it has. They probably have been told over and over again. If they aren't aware of them yet, it won't change anything to tell them. I still make bug reports or feature requests towards emacs because the devs are somewhat responsive. I'm not making bug reports for Fedora because Fedora won't fix them anyway. I rarely make bug reports for Debian because they tend to be either ignored or not to be fixed. I would make bug reports for i3 if I was still using it because the devs are pretty responsive. The systemd ppl even deny fixing bugs that are very easy to fix, so I don't make bug reports for systemd. I never found a bug in fvwm or exim, and if I did, I'd make a bug report and see what happens ... Feel free to challenge the developers of systemd all you like, that might be much more useful than challenging me. > I bet most of those here, who criticize systemd never ever have even *tried* > to take any of this upstream. I am delighted to see any proof of that you did. I could Cc their mailing list in my posts here. Others could do the same, and the discussion would be carried over :) > Just really important: Watch your tone. If you are disrepectful, then chances > are that you will be ignored. And IMHO *rightfully* so. I'm not disrespectful. I'm aware that native English speakers tend to be so overly polite that I find it rather sickening at times. That's some sort of a cultural problem they have --- or a problem I have. I can't fix this problem, and though I'm inclined to respect that this problem exists, I'm not willing to bend too much to accomodate them. They can just say what they want to say and respect that this problem exists just like I do. -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87r3z0385r....@yun.yagibdah.de
