Don Armstrong <d...@debian.org> writes: > On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, lee wrote: >> These few people are also very concerned with preventing other people, >> particularly users, from doing something which would contribute to >> what they claim that they are doing. > > Exactly how are Debian Developers preventing others from contributing?
Try to provide a Debian package and you'll see that it is so ridiculously difficult that it is virtually impossible. Fedora is the same. Post to the debian-devel mailing list, and you will find your posts totally ignored. Make bug reports and you'll find them ignored or are being told that the problem will never be fixed. You'll even find yourself left stranded with a broken and non-fixable system because the devs decided to change something that used to work fine. Try to help by providing translations, and you'll find it's impossible because there's nowhere and no one to offer such service. Look at the fedora-users mailing list where you can hear the devs saying that they are interested in what users are thinking and then, a few posts later, that they don't care what users are thinking. A while later, they close whole threads because they don't like them, telling people what they are allowed to think and what not. What the devs are thinking about is trying to make Fedora lead the development of FOSS --- well, if they think they should do that with total disregard for the users of FOSS, you have to ask what these ppl think who they are. Make an improvement/extension to some software and find it totally ignored by the devs after being told they might integrate it. Speak up because you care about something, and you'll be told to shut up or even that you're an annoying person. As you can see, it's not only Debian developers I'm disappointed with. Sadly, the quality of Debian has declined over the years --- and I'm not the only one saying that --- and one of the reasons for this might be disregard for the users. > Almost everything we do is publicly available. That's nice --- what difference does this make, or what consequences does it have? > Nothing is stopping anyone from contributing to Debian, proposing > patches, or even forking Debian entirely if you want. Nothing is stopping you from fighting against windmills. It's cool that I could make my own fork of Debian, and it won't be possible without the huge amounts of work lots of ppl, like the devs, have put into Debian. Yet I don't want to make my own fork. I wouldn't be able to maintain it, and I'd rather see some software I've written available as a Debian package. It might be useful for other users and I'd be happy to see them using it. However, I had to make my own fork of some software --- unrelated to Debian --- because no contribution was appreciated by the devs. I still maintain that fork, simply because I want the functionality I implemented, and AFAIK I'm the only one who uses it. Anyone else is free to use it or to fork it ... > In all of these separate threads, you have been doing little but > maligning people who are volunteering for Debian. It's not a nice thing > to do, it's not pleasant to read, and in doing so, you're actively > draining existing contributor's desire to continue working on Debian. > > Please stop. I know how that feels. You want to contribute and feel that it is not appreciated --- in this case because you encounter some criticism. It's very disappointing and makes you ask yourself why you put any effort into contributing. Despite all disappointment, I still contribute, even if it's only by publishing software I created under GPL. Nobody cares, but I do it nonetheless because I'm using software others have contributed to, so I find it only right to let them use what I created or contributed to, and I'll be happy if anyone uses it. What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of speaking up cannot be considered as a form of contribution. I'm not speaking up because I wanted to diminish someones willingness to contribute or because I hated Debian developers. I'm speaking up because I would like to see a change which I think would be for the better. I admit that I do it for a selfish reason: Because I would like to be able to continue to use all the great software so many people have contributed to, with all the freedom we now have in doing so, with all the choices and in the quality available to us now, and preferably even more choices and even better quality to come. I'm seeing this ability endangered. Even this last straw, if you want to call it that, of an attempt to contribute in some way, is encountered with "shut up". Your criticism is that criticising diminishes contributers' willingness to contribute. Would you rather see the users quietly moving off because they made experiences similar to those I made when they were trying to do something for what they think is the better? How does Debian know what the users Debian, according to Debians' social contract, are making their priority want or need when they tell the users to (either) shut up (or to become a Debian developer) when the users try to speak? Please recognise that there are users --- and that not all users can fork Debian or become Debian developers in order contribute. Please value the users rather than shoving them aside unless they have forked Debian with great success or have become Debian developers. Please recognise that there are other ways to contribute than forking Debian or becoming a Debian developer. Perhaps my train of thought is totally mistaken. I'd be happy if you could convince me that it is and that everything is perfect. -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? 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