On Sun, September 16, 2012 7:51 am, Camaleón wrote: > On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:20:16 -0700, Weaver wrote: > >> On Sat, September 15, 2012 8:15 am, Camaleón wrote: > >>>> Newbie Installation of Debian Squeeze 6.0.5 i386 Netinstall disc. >>> >>> IMO, newbies should go for CD or DVD installation disc instead. >> >> If they are going to get all their updates from the 'Net in the future, >> they may well be better off experiencing that with the installer. > > Can you exapand that? I don't see any relation between using a bigger > image as installation media and having to update from the net afterwards.
The installer disc, unless you get one of the nightly updates, is out of date as soon as it is produced. Updates occur throughout the installer procedure - security updates, for example. > > The netinstall simply takes more time for someone who wants to get a full > desktop environment right after the installation, that's all :-) No, that is not all. The Newbie has to discover how to access a package manager, then discover which category desktop managers come under. What the difference is between a desktop environment and a desktop is. what the names of these are. Any number of other variables. This is the complexity factor that needs to be removed. > >>> I will use a 3 GiB partition. >> >> This is an older style RAM. >> DIMM SDRAM Synchronous 266 MHz >> Both available slots are filled to a maximum capacity of 2 GB. With just >> abn email client open - just sitting there and Iceweasel with two tabs >> open, I'm using 32% >> >> This is one of the reasons as to why I'm building a new box. > > I don't the your point here, sorry. Having 4 GiB of "/swap" for what, > exactly? > Hibernation uses compression and 3 GiB should be enough for this purpose. > If you > are worried about the scarce amount of RAM in your system, consider a > different > desktop environment (such as XFCE) or using another applications instead > memory > eaters like Iceweasel or the like :-) I need Iceweasel, not elinks for the work I do on this particular install. On another install, on the same box, I use elinks - horses for courses. If you need an elephant, a mouse is useless. > >>> IMO, too much space for /home. I would split the remaining space for "/ >>> home" and "/". >> >> It depends on what you need it for. > > It's not you but the system. You have to consolidate your needs with the > system > ones :-) Newbies need time to learn that, but this is not an immediate concern. As I have already said, a bigger / would be appropriate for Newbie needs and a little less home would work for immediate and ongoing initial needs. For many, a disc this size would be plenty ongoing. For others it wouldn't. This is something that each individual case would need to determine for themselves. One or two would decide, as an ongoing project, to turn another old box into a file server. More room requirement can be catered for in any number of ways. > >> I know one young chap that downloads a lot of movies. What if you have a >> more mature newbie that is starting his own graphics business and is >> trying to keep overheads down by learning GIMP, etc. Graphics files take >> up a lot of space. Potential must be allowed for. > > Fine. But remember a system that runs out of space cannot even be booted > which translates into no movies, no images... no nothing. The operating > system > has to be "happy" and (this is my personal view) the user stuff can be > always > placed in a separated/dedicated hard disk or another media other than > taking > a valuable space that can be used to making room for patches and a > plethora of > applications that is still to come... I think we are basically agreed on this matter. > >>> You are being too much protective. A linux user (newbie or not) should >>> know what these terms are or at least, have a bare idea of their >>> meaning. >> >> Yes, but the reality is that they don't. This, again, from personal >> experience. You cannot assume a minimum prior knowledge and then create >> the communication gap that fails to achieve the aim. > > "A minimum prior knowledge" is required for installing an OS. A computer > is not > a fridge and if you start by encouraging users to think that way you'll be > creating lazy users and this is nothing but a big problem in the future. Yes, but if you require the services of a fridge, you do not need to understand the difference between a condenser and a compressor immediately, or which refrigerants are employed. If you choose to become a refrigeration technician a little further down the track, fine, but unnecessary initially. If we do not understand all the internal workings of everything we have in our homes, from our computers to our electrical and gas systems, to our cars and air-conditioning, this is not laziness. It is just the time constraints set by a complex lifestyle and self-determined direction in life. I believe that an easier and successful installation is more likely to lead to the developer of a docs writer or developer than an unnecessarily difficult one. If your child attends preschool/kindergarten, is it necessary for them to be competent enough to travel there on on the first day on the bus alone? I thought my Father was a hard man! > >>> Hidding too much information can be as bad as displaying all the data. >> >> No information is hidden here. > > If you only show a unique partition layout, yes, you're deliberately > omiting > the rest of the options. No, the rest of the information is there as soon as they have finished the successful install. > >> Only the knowledge for a successful installation is delivered in a >> manner accessible to the market. Mailing lists, etc., are not accessible >> till then. >> Plenty of time for indepth knowledge then. > > I think all users (regardless their current skills) have the right to be > properly > informed, and this means pointing them to documents and sites where they > can read > and learn about the available options. Yes, but it is not obligatory to read the entire works of Tolstoy and Dostoevsky before you buy a plane ticket to Russia. All the rest of the information will be accessible once they have a successful install. In my opinion, this is best addressed, within the Debian editions, of having all the links to debian resources - mailing lists, docs, man2html, /usr/share/doc, wiki, etc., preinstalled into the browsers, much in the manner that the mozilla/firefox links are now. They obviously see a need for it. Perhaps the need exists? > >>> In my experience, people do not tend to read much at the installation >>> screen neither this is a good place where to stay for too long. >> >> There's no need to worry about the time factor. The installer isn't >> going anywhere. > > Unless you had developed an energy system that lasts forever, the > installer will > go away as soon as the battery or power supply go down, so yes, time is > something > to take into account ;-) Yes, but in the majority of cases, the install isn't going to be happening on a laptop on a desert island ;) > >>> Too much text can make the user to doubt >> >> The information required is no more than it needs to be to achieve >> communication effectively. > > "Required information" will vary depending on the kind of user, some will > need > a more detailed explanation than others and you can't start describing the > principles of the informatics here. No, but 'enough' is not the same as 'too much'. Clear, concise, coherent communication of basics is required. I am not advocating the kind of install that a babe in nappies can comprehend. > >>> and the installation wizard cannot be a replacement for a good manual >>> such the >>> Relase Notes and Installation Guide. >> >> I didn't read about those until well after I had done my first two >> installations and by then I didn't need them. > > That's a bad step. Every user should read the docs before installing, > that's what > they are for. Possibly, but if you don't know they exist, or are confident in your abilities because you have done a couple of those complex Windows installs you have been talking about, many won't see the need. ;) > >> I have actually downloaded the installation guide and have intended to >> read it, >> but here we sit, years later, and I still haven't. > > I wouldn't encourage any user to follow that proceeding, sorry. No, neither would I. I note the recommendation is up on the iso page now, but what if you go the 'safe' way and buy a disc from one of many 'approved' suppliers on the 'Net? I think you'll find that many don't know about the bulk of documentation, even just that pertaining to installation, until after they have installed......or not. > >>>> Popularity Contest = Yes. There's more explanation here than there is >>>> for partitioning. >>> >>> I would remove this option. >> >> I know what you mean, but if you want information from somebody else's >> system, it's polite to ask. > > (...) > > Yes, but not from the installer, IMO. far easier to do it then than to collate the exercise later. The 'No' option is there. I think it also provides a psychological comparison between free. open source and proprietary systems. The installation procedure is an introductory one and I think 'introductions of this nature, although they may appear to be verbose on first sight, have a solid rationale for inclusion. > > Anyway, I find the PopCon methodology a bit biased, I prefer that some > asks me > directly (not my system) what I have installed and why I prefer one > application > over another (that I have installed and applications does not have to mean > I want > to be there, I could have forgotten about the application was there or > simply I left > installed to avoid breaking something). This is probably collated electronically, without any personal information being revealed. If you have a sloppy system, i haven't heard the rumours;) > >>> I will add a warning here about the time it can take to download the >>> full DE so the installation process can be delayed noticeabily. >> >> I think it's best to give the Newbie a GUI as soon as possible. > > (...) > > Then use a bigger media (CD or DVD) ;-) No need, even the minimal Net-Install CD offers this as default. At this stage, access is everything! > >>>> There might, from a newbie perspective, need to be a short note at the >>>> proxy configure stage. What's a proxy? >>> >>> Come on... if they are currently browsing the web and getting e-mails >>> in their inbox they should already know what a proxy is. >> >> Nope! >> When I first installed, I wondered if the installer was referring to the >> ISP! > > Whatever. The user only has to know he is using something called "proxy" > and > he has to provide the proper data. That's all. Yes, but what is a proxy? As I said, something MAY be needed here. > >>>> But from what I can see, the only major bulwark to a more substantial >>>> user uptake is the clarification of partitioning. The installer has >>>> now reached the stage where everything else is pretty much >>>> self-explanatory. >>> >>> I will avoid a verbose installer. >> >> So would I. >> Verbosity is not what is required at any time. Efficient communication >> of minimal information, to achieve success in the process is. > > I'm afraid what you call "efficient communication of minimal information" > is > what I understand as "verbose" ;-) Yes, but we are not trying to see it from our perception. We need to look at it from the Newbie perspective. > >>> Debian people has done a marvelous work with thteir documentation and >>> this step (Partitioning) is very well explained there¹ (even it has a >>> separate Appendix!). >>> >> >> There are many other such references, but the Newbie doesn't know about >> them. > > That's something that should be corrected, then. I have provided one recommendation for that. But providing access to too much information initially would have the effect of overwhelming the novice, every bit as much as it would be if it was included in the installer. > >> Once he gains access, somebody will probably tell him. A simple >> install procedure is what is required. A multiple reference >> bibliography, with a full-blown glossary and acronym listing are not. > > As I see it, a "simple install procedure" will generate "simple oulooks". Everybody begins with 'a simple outlook'. With OEM installations, this is a fact of social conditioning and the enforced point of communication. > I prefer > generate responsible user frrm the beginning. Introducing them to Linux by > pretending > it's something easy it's a big error they will notice as times goes by and > he later > discovers no operating system is a bed of roses. He/she will discover that and will determine how deeply they want to dig into their rose garden. Or they'll hire a gardener. Regards, Weaver -- "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." -- Thomas Paine -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/31da1b00007ffa90d10f0747101fe74e.squir...@fulvetta.riseup.net
