I'm guessing that there really isn't one POV within the debian community about debians place in the linux world or as a replacement for windows. I am an ambulatory linux user. I can debug perl, but I don't write in it yet, because I can still get away with awk and sed. I use the command line alot (like right now when I'm using mutt) because keystrokes are almost always faster than mouse clicks. I use debian not just because it's free, but because, even with its drawbacks, it is the best linux distro for me. The drawbacks I perceive are:
1. Relatively long time between stable releases. This is actually shrinking, but is acute right now because amd64 is not part of stable, and I continue to have some annoying, low-level problems. 2. A fairly rigid treatment of 32- and 64-bit applications in the amd64 architecture. I'm not expecting relief here because the developers have decided that cleanliness is next to ... Actually I think they have reversed the order. I also understand that this is a temporary aggravation of a standard linux annoyance... that new technology enters the linux world about 6 months after it enters the windoze world. However, the path taken for this example sets debian apart, and is emblematic of why it would not be a choice for new linux users. The chroot is, I suppose, a rather elegant solution. The chroot leads to a clean path to pure 64-bit as well as a possibly cleaner set of library directories. But I have to tell you that when I'm installing a chroot, I feel like a homeowner from the 1950's, crawling under my house with a flashlight looking for the fuse-box! It's not even that I can't do it. It's just that I've had enough. I would rather spend time doing science, than dealing with relatively low-level administration. So, am I not part of the debian target audience? If not, your target is really narrow. If research scientists are simply too administratively wimpy because we do value ease of use, then you, the developers, seem to be going to an awful lot of trouble for such a small target. I would like to see debian have a long-term goal of windoze replacement. The hardware world is slowly reckoning with linux, so the delay's may become vanishingly small. I just purchased a Samsung laser printer and the list of compatible OS's (on the outside of the box!) has gone from two to roughly ten, including debian. As entire countries opt for open source, conceiving linux as a replacement is simply prudent, and debian should be a major player. Rightly, debian values elegance. However, elegance and utility, even for the average user, need not be mutually exclusive. For example, an installer can be composed of elegant code and still be transparent. It's important to realize that the latter is actually harder than the former because programmers have a hard time imagining the average user's needs and questions. It wouldn't be a bad idea for developers to query the user base as they are forming policy. They might even think of mechanisms for changing policies that don't work for a large portion of the user base. Art Edwards On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 06:52:27PM +0200, Albert Dengg wrote: > On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 02:07:43AM -0500, Seth Goodman wrote: > > On Friday, August 11, 2006 10:39 PM -0500, Anthony M Simonelli wrote: > > > > > > > > That's a reasonable goal, even a good goal, if you are > > > > > > willing to remain a small, exclusive club. > > > > > > Actually, Debian is one of the fastest growing distribution > > > according to Netcraft: > > > > > > > > http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/12/05/strong_growth_for_debian.ht > > ml > > > > > > and Linux in general is making it's mark with companies such as HP, > > > IBM, and Google and around the world. > > > > The first line of that article is: > > > > "Debian is currently the fastest growing Linux distribution for web > > servers, with more than 1.2 million active sites in December." > > > > This reinforces my point, which is that Debian, in its present form, > > will find use primarily among technically adept users, which are a > > minority in the computer market. The same goes for its adoption at > > large IT companies. The fact that Debian is taking web server market > > share from Red Hat does not indicate that it is making any inroads into > > becoming a usable desktop for average users. > > well, were is the problem with that? > and also debian is much easier to install now with d-i then it used to > be... > i actually like debian for asking me what really to install...i have a > problem with distros like suse where it is hard to set the computer up > _without_ X and so on and there are areaes where i just don't need it. > > > > > > > I'm arguing to consider the point of view of would-be Windows > > > > > > defectors. > > > > > > I don't believe the Debian project is not meant to be a Windows > > > replacement. I don't even think it exists to compete with MS > > > Windows, but to provide a free(dom) operating system for everyone. > > > > It may be free for everyone, but they can't use it. You can, I can, but > > the average Windows user can't. That's like saying that anyone is free > > to buy a Mercedes, all you need is the money. > > > > > > > > Here are a couple of cases for things that casual users can > > > > manage in Windows PC's but would have great difficulty in Debian. > > > > The following is not meant to say that Windows is good. It's > > > > not: it's crap. But they did do some things right, and we ought > > > > to take notice. > > > > > > You can get books that help. In fact, the Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 > > > Bible (ISBN 0-7645-7644-5) is a great book for those just getting > > > started with Debian and Linux and answers the first two common > > > tasks they'd need to know as well as installation help and getting > > > a desktop up and running. They also discuss Internet and Intranet > > > services such as web servers, printing, file servers, FTP, etc, and > > > it's only $40.00 (hey, you're not paying for the operating system!) > > > > I don't need books like that because I can read the documentation. The > > average Windows user is not going to read it. They don't need to read > > books to fire up their Windows boxen, and they don't expect to read > > books to move to Linux. If it were up to snuff, they wouldn't need to. > > You're preaching to the choir by telling me that a technically adept > > person can make Debian do most common tasks without inordinate > > difficulty. The average computer user, OTOH, is a completely different > > story. > well, the average windows install done by an average user does not > really work as it should, give all the security problems and worm > distribution, which is at least partly due to the fact that with > windows, everybody thinks they can do it themselves and know what they > are doing. > ... > > my point is, there are different distros with different goals > and also i have 2 "normal users" here using debian without any problems > (both don't know pcs worth a damn and would also have problems with > windows)...i do the system administration and for them it just works > (and for me it is less work them administrating a xp home install which > does not have fs permissions where i have to reconstruct all sort of > system files they alter/delete be accident... :-) ) > > yours > Albert > -- > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -- > Albert Dengg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
