On Friday 06 January 2006 12:46 pm, Clive Menzies wrote: > On (06/01/06 12:18), Andy Streich wrote: > > I really appreciate this topic and am delighted to see experienced Debian > > users responding positively to the "help, help" emails. Andrew's > > question is the critical one: is Debian for newbies or not? From my own > > experience over the last couple of years I'd say it is not -- unless the > > newbie has strong technical skills and lots and lots of time to read > > manuals and this email list and getting the system up-and-running quickly > > is not critical. Without a prior Unix/Linux background or the dedicated > > help of a local expert, you have to approach Debian at the very least as > > a time consuming, very technical hobby. > > I disagree about strong technical skills but you need some time and > motivation to learn. The 'new' sarge installer it is a lot easier > than installing woody.
Oh, absolutely the sarge installer is a great advancement. Unfortunately the comparison we are faced with is people who buy a Win or Mac box with everything set up and running on the one hand and, on the other, those same people expending effort to install Debian and get to that same point. > > I think many in the community would say, "But that's as it should be. If > > you don't have the dedication to figure things out, go to another distro, > > stick with Windows, or buy a Mac." To me that's short sighted. If > > Debian is to remain vital, it needs to keep attracting new users. > > It clearly does attract new users, often those who've tried a derivative > distro but want something more. That said, it would be nigh on > impossible to satisfy all potential users; however, between the range of > derivative distros and debian itself, most needs are covered. Which puts you in the camp that thinks Debian is for the advanced user -- and that's fine. IMO there are plenty of potentially happy Debian users who are lost along the way -- simply because there is no quick/simple/relatively-sure-fire install for the newbies that just want a desktop with email, open office, and a browser to get them started. The one thing that has ALWAYS worked for me in a Debian install is the mouse, the one thing that never worked is sound, and the screen/video always need tweaking by hand editing a configuration file. I understand that these are not simple things for the developers who are working on that part of installation system and all-things-considered the current installer does a great jobs. It's just that in comparison to newbie expectations (however unrealistic), the experience still falls short and the fix/tweaking process often becomes labour and time intensive. Those of us who have been around the block a few times think nothing of opening a terminal window, switching to root, executing a few obscure Unix commands, and running an editor like gvim. To a newbie who has only seen Windows doing that is a horrifying experience. If you want to say to them "you are not ready to use Debian" that's a valid position. My feeling is that Debian has so much to offer one you get a working system, we should go out of our way to make it even easier than it is today to help the newbie. If that's not going to happen, then we should be honest and put a big "advanced users only" banner on www.debian.org and save a lot a people a lot of grief. > > In addition to the other suggestions on how to improve the newbie > > experience, I would add creating yet another mailing list specifically > > for people trying to establish a stable installation. Like other > > diehards on this list I can filter 150 emails/day. That's not true for > > all and a newbie especially. > > I've never filtered the list mail (incl. boot, powerpc and user) because > I learn so much from reading about other people's problems and > solutions. As a newbie, most of it went over my head but over time, > much of it began to make sense. Agreed. I use a similar strategy. I just want to give the newbie the option to do that -- after they have a solid working setup. Until then, a "debian-newcomer" list (or debian-how-in-the-heck-do-I-get-this-working list) seems like a good idea. Cheers, Andy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
