Subject: Re: Q: on Debian Bug-Tracking system
Date: Thu, Sep 28, 2000 at 11:42:28AM +0200
In reply to:Bernd Worsch
Quoting Bernd Worsch([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 02:25:36PM -0400, Wayne Topa wrote:
> > Would someone know if the bugs listed on debian.org/Bugs
> > are the 'current' outstanding bugs or just of all the bugs ever
> > posted?
[ snip my original comments]
>
> I think your conclusions are wrong. I read your mail yesterday
> and whereas it was really interessting, it seemed somehow problematic.
>
> Well, slept one night on it and with that ideas came:
>
> First of all i'm with you, in depreciating the existence of old
> bugs (out of date tracking system is equally bad), but i do not
> follow about which consequences this implies on presentation in
> class.
>
Bernd
I think that I should have mentioned that the students ages range
from 16 to 75. A warm fuzzy feeling to a 16 year old is not quite
the same as with someone over 60. I know, I am in the latter group.
> "Honesty" is one of the essential benefits you get with free software,
> and maybe the "warm fuzzy" feeling is not the best starting point
> when talking about software. (has to do with beings human or animal
> a lot more than with software and technical knickknacks)
>
> I'd recommend the following aproach:
>
> a) Tell what debian is and what it wants to be. Both can
> be learnd from the policy.
>
> b) Build up familiarity and confidence in the debian system
> by using it (potato that is). Maybe tell stories from your
> personal debian history.
>
> c) Point out that there are deficiencies in the debian system
> and which mechanisms exist to address theese. This is the
> time to mention the bugtracking system, your bugs and the
> overly old ones.
>
> d) Show and practice how to contact the debian people, teach
> netiquette and how to write a useful mailsubject, last not
> least how to cope with high traffic mailing lists.
> Getting in contact with people will then create the "warm
> fuzzy" feeling.
>
> I think this aproach could be used for any debian presentation
> regardless if 15min shorttalk or half a year of intense training.
>
Totally agree. I have this in the plan and it will be spread over
more than one class period.
> Finally here is some truths to keep in mind:
>
> - Hiding of deficiencies is an indication of weekness
>
Thats why I use Debian!!!
> I think debian is strong enough to address its deficiencies.
> If you hide debians deficiencies in class, it is because you
> fear your lecturing beeing to weak to present them properly.
> (Don't take this too personal, if your lecturing is on debian
> your quite good anway. This is just to show that, if you are
> tempted to not talk about something it's quite sure you
> definitly should talk about it.)
>
Why do you think I settled on Debian in the first place. I wouldn't
have done this with any other dist. My problem, again, is with the
older crowd. I don't want to scare anyone away, at first. When they
are settled in I *will* discuss the problems. If I didn't do that, I
shouldn't/wouldn't be giving the class in the first place. No offense
taken BTW, I agree with you.
> - Perfection is illusion and would be boring anyway
>
> This is the advertising problem, TV-world is perfect in a
> way, but real life certainly isn't. This is true with software
> and everything including human beings. One should face this
> fact sometime and you could consider it an entry ticket to
> the free-software community to drop the illusion of perfection.
> (recomended reading: Aldous Huxley - Brave New World)
> This means aiming at perfection nevertheless but not being
> restrained by being imperfect.
>
> - It's more fun to do the big things than the small ones, but
> both are equally necessary
>
> Well this is why documentation is rare and often out of date.
> I don't really know what to do about this. Maybe there should
> be awards to spice the small things. Personally i think it wrong
> to seperate small things from the big ones. In documentation
> issues the concept of literate programming seems most appealing
> to me. Sometimes you can't avoid seperation, i know, but it
> means troubles in every single case.
As an 'old' programmer, I know of the problem associated with the lack
of 'user' understandable documentation. It was quite a job to keep
the doc's up with all the changes we made to the software. We never
reach 'Perfection', and I don't think that will ever be possible.
But, as a user now, I can try to help the situation. (see my other post)
>
> Well, one could think i've been carried away a little, but
> that's fine with me. Maybe there's some ideas in it you can
> use in class. I'd like to hear how it went sometime. Bth how
> about transforming your personal notes and experiences into
> a teaching-debian-howto?
I don't think that you got carried away, at all. I am encouraged
to see that there are people in this community that feel as you do.
I can only hope that I can instill some of our fervor into some of my
students.
My 6-7 years of Linux use (out of >23 years of building/programming
computers) with many distributions and OS's has been a ball.
My class will be conducted on that note. I know that for the younger
users it will be informative and hopefully, fun. I will know I have
accomplished my goal when the retired carpenter/steel worker/housewife
asks 'Why did my neighbor say I _had_ to use Microsoft to get on the net'.
I'd like to think that would be a win/win situation, for me. I might
even get some youngster interested in programming.
Bernd, thank you very much for your reply.
Tschuess
Wayune
--
The definition of an upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in.
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