At 09:55 PM 9/13/1998 +0100, you wrote: >>>>>> "Martin" == Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Martin> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i > >Joris> 2. D O C U M E N T A T I O N ( why all these cryptic files and no real >Joris> database ??? HTML yes?) > >There are manpages, which are often quite good help if all you need is a >summary and a reminder of what things do. From all the Linux distributions, >Debian has the best man-db setup. > >There are the GNU Info files. There are numerous documents written in >postscript, there are the books from O'Reilly and you have the Debian >documentation project. > >One of the strong points of a Linux based system is that there is so much >documentation about. > >Maybe you don't know yet what you are looking for... > >Martin> There is a real database. It's called PostgreSQL and comes as a >Martin> set of *ponder* five packages, or so. > >Indeed. I am very happy with PostgreSQL. Can only recommend it.... Oracle >and Sybase have announced support for Linux too... > >Joris> Installing and removing LOOKS easy but there's very little REAL >Joris> version/dependency checking done. > ><McEnroe> > You cannot be serious! ></McEnroe> > >>> Geez, sometimes i start thinking of winDOWs as a better platform just >>> because one can ****up a system > >Martin> ??? > >Huh? > >Martin> Maybe it's a major lack in the whole community that there are only >Martin> not free wordprocessors? I have to admit that I don't need such >Martin> programs since I'm able to use the power of LaTeX. > >Not really. Why should one make such demands when there are very good >alternatives around. I once showed a LaTeX'd document to a high court judge, >and he was so impressed with it that he actually started to learn to write >LaTeX although he never bothered writing a single line of code. He was the >opinion that the documents just look so much better with LaTeX, and I agree. > >-- >Nicolai P Guba > BT Laboratories GNU Project > http://www.labs.bt.com http://www.gnu.org > [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >-- >Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null
I can certainly understand Joris' frustrations. As a newbie to both Unix and Linux (yet very well-versed in the DOS/Windows world), I find the learning curve of Debian to be quite steep. When I go looking for documentation to try and solve a problem, it's true that I find quite a bit available; the problem is that it's written in a style that is very difficult for me to wade through. Typically I come away from a three-hour documentation-reading session having gained nothing. I've often thought about contributing to the documentation projects, yet until I understand how the thing works, I can't write about it. And so far, a couple of months into Linux, I'm next to clueless about how anything works. However, I realize that Linux has up until recently been an OS for the technically elite; accordingly I've resigned myself to not expecting quick answers. On the other hand, until things get easier to do, the masses won't be embracing the technically superior Linux over Windows. One of the things I'd like to see is a centralized control panel type of thing. Name it something like SYSEDIT or CONTROLPAN or something; it would have links to other configuration utilities, such as liloconfig and modconfig and XF86Config and XF86Setup and ifconfig, etc. Then the various configuration utilities could begin to move to a point & click type of interface (I know, I know, "anathema!"). The point/click interface is WORLDS better for the newbie than trying to remember which command is needed, and what the syntax is for the specific function wanted, etc. Also, although there may not be much difference between Deb 1.3 and 2.0 as far as documentation needs go, people from the Windows world have been trained to think that a new version number automatically makes the older version documentation obsolete (don't use a "Dummies for Win95" book to solve Win98 issues, etc). Accordingly, when we see docs for Debian 1.3 and we're running hamm, we (or at least I do) immediately dismiss it as irrelevant (whether this is correct or not, the psychological issue remains). Therefore I suggest that the titles of documentation be changed as soon as possible to read something like "User's Manual for Debian 1.3 (with 2.0 additions)", and the 2.0 changes made within the text of the documentation. As an example of how difficult I find the documentation to be, I'll ask a real-life question. I've searched a couple of hours looking for the answer, and don't have a clue where to begin. I've got a laptop running hamm; it's got a PCMCIA modem/nic. I'm using the modem successfully. I originally set up the computer in a docking station that had a nic (other than the PCMCIA nic). The system knows about the modem and about the docking station nic, but I can't figure out for the life of me how to use the PCMCIA ethernet interface. I've hesitated to ask this question on the list, because I suspect that if I get an answer it will be something to the effect of "Look at the Ethernet-HOWTO and the NET3-HOWTO", which may be the technically accurate thing to do, but helps me not one whit. Just a couple of more rants and I'll be through. Concerning DSELECT; the single biggest piece of information that would have REALLY helped me out in the beginning is that in the Select screens, the word INSTALL does not mean that it will try to re-install already installed packages. In order to prevent what I thought would be a long download time installing things that were already installed, I went through and manually started marking everything to the HOLD condition. Of course this introduced all sorts of dependency checking &tc, and pretty soon I just gave up and went to lick my wounds for a day or two until I could gather the courage to try again. I understand that apt is supposed to be so much better, but the one time I tried to do anything with it all I could see was that the apt method was added to the METHOD option, and when I chose it instead of ftp, everything basically remained the same. I suppose it's because I'm ignorant of some missing step or piece. If DSELECT is really going away, I wouldn't bother putting much effort into it, but if it's sticking around, one thing that would really help is for the different categories to be expandable/collapsable, so that instead of scrolling through 2000 packages, I could scroll through 20 categories of packages and expand only those that I'm interested in looking at further. After expanding a category and selecting the packages I want, I could then collapse that category to clean up my screen and then go on the the next category. (The search function would still look at everything, not just the categories.) XWindows: Why can XF86Setup produce a decent graphic screen automatically, but X itself must be told by the user what type of monitor and card, etc is on the system before a minimal X can be started? I understand these settings are needed in order to make full use of your card/monitor, but for the newbie, even a lousy looking 640x480 screen that comes up automatically would be a major accomplishment. In other words, it's okay to make the user struggle for a good video setup, but make it ultra-easy to get a minimal setup going. Concerning wordprocessors: I've looked at WordPerfect 7 and was disappointed after coming from the Windows world. Again, it may be my ignorance that is causing WP7 to look kludgy (ugly, hard-to-read screen fonts, etc). And I know it's my ignorance that made it difficult for me to figure out how to make it print. But again, from the standpoint of a user coming from the Windows world, spending half-a-day to figure out something that takes 15 minutes in the Windows world makes Linux less appealing than it should. (Sidebar: I can't wait to get away from Windows; it's just that until I get over this learning curve I can't. And while I'm on the learning curve, I'm gonna complain. My apologies to everyone who has stuck with me thus far.) LaTex, etc, may be far superior to wordprocessors, but again, there's the psychological issue of leaving one world (Windows) and trying to find similarities (WordPerfect, Word, Excel, etc) in the new world (Linux). There's too many things a newbie must learn to add to the pile the task of learning a text processor with all it's cryptic commands (LaTex, etc may be easier to use than that, but that's the perception I have at this point). I was going to try StarOffice, but their website only seems to mention StarOffice 4, and that for money. I was under the impression that it was free, but apparently my impression was wrong. At any rate, after several failed attempts to download SO3 (I think because of network congestion), I finally gave up for now and have decided I don't need to create/edit any documents anyway. Concerning databases: I was trying to find a way to connect to a SQLServer database from a Linux client. From responses I've receieved on this list, I've decided it can't be done. But until I decided that, I tried PostGresQL and couldn't figure out down from up. Again, it's an ease-of-use issue. If I had experience of knowledge, perhaps things would have been easier, but again, we're talking newbie here. I suspect that when Joris complains that "there's very little REAL version/dependency checking", he's referring to some of the issues we've seen where EMACS doesn't configure because TM or another version of EMACS is installed or something similar. For someone who knows what they're doing, these issues may not seem like a dependency issue, but for a newbie, all he knows is that something isn't installing because it seems to conflict with something else. Games: I've downloaded Squake and DOOM, etc, but haven't yet gotten them to run. Why? I don't know. I'm an illiterate newbie from the Windows world. So, I have no word processor, no spreadsheet, no database, no real games, an X system that I don't really understand and can't improve without fear of breaking, and limited printing after an hour or two of brain-mashing study. I do have telnet and ftp and lynx capability (as long as I'm not trying to use my PCMCIA nic on the laptop). I suspect that by this time next year I'll be a whiz-bang at Debian, and will be able to help convert my friends and co-workers to a better OS than Microsoft provides. However, this is assuming that I don't give up in frustration before then. I won't, but a lot of people would. =========================================================== Kent West | Technology Support/ | Abilene Christian University | Voice: 915-674-2557 FAX: 915.674.6724 | ACU Station, Box 29005 | E-MAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Abilene, TX 79699-9005 | Ham: KC5ENO, General | ===========================================================
