Hi, * Goswin von Brederlow (goswin-...@web.de) [090809 03:54]: > I'm writing to you in the hope that you can facilitate resolving a > grievance I have with Joerg Jaspert in his roles as ftp-master and his > decision to remove ia32-libs-tools in the name of "The Project".
can we please get some input why this package was removed? removals.txt only states: [Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:50:16 +0000] [ftpmaster: Joerg Jaspert] Removed the following packages from unstable: ia32-apt-get | 22 | all ia32-archive | 22 | all ia32-libs-tools | 22 | source, amd64, i386, ia64 Closed bugs: 535645 ------------------- Reason ------------------- RoThe Project; Most idiotic breakage ever. ---------------------------------------------- (rest of the mail is left for your information) Thanks. Cheers, Andi > I started writing ia32-libs-tools 1 1/2 years ago based on my work as > ia32-libs maintainer and job experience with running Debian as Bi-Arch > on amd64. Joerg himself encouraged the developement of ia32-libs-tools > in the REJECTED mail of ia32-alsa-lib (see [1]) and while discussing > on irc. ia32-libs-tools has been in Debian for all but the initial > delay of packaing and NEW processing and has steadily improved to the > fully functional solution it is now. > > According to popcon ia32-libs-tools has about 700 users and > ia32-apt-get about 500 (numbers now falling) and the users are now > left out in the cold with an inferior solution (ia32-libs) that only > covers a fraction of the features ia32-libs-tools provides (see > Background Information below). Rene Engelhard even requested a > backport to Lenny. > > Ia32-libs-tools (all binary packages it builds) does not divert any > files of other packages, does not conflict/replace with any other > packages and does not interfere with the functionality of any other > packages even if installed. Specifically ia32-apt-get does not > interfere with the package management in any way unless the user > specifically invokes one of the ia32-... binaries. And even then > ia32-apt-get does not touch any of the internals of apt or dpkg. There > is no risk of the package management system getting broken. > > There is also no (more) risk of 64bit packages unexpectetly being > upgraded to 32bit packages of a higher version. The existing package > had a debconfig option defaulting against this for some time and the > svn version has a even stronger protection against this. It is still > configurable and if a user wants to use a 32bit bash (or whatever) on > amd64 then he can configure that explicitly and it will work. > > In short all the complaints raised in the flame fest on debian-devel > [2] have been addressed and removed from ia32-libs-tools. So I see no > reason "The Project" could have for removing ia32-libs-tools. > > The source is fully licenced under GPL version 2 and all its bugs are > pending or wishlist like. None of the pending ones are above > important. > > All the information I have about the removal is a conversation on IRC > and the removals.txt on ftp-master: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 14:25 < mrvn> Ganneff: ahh, you are awake. So will you accept ia32-libs-tools > in its benign form it is now? > 14:25 < Ganneff> *I* will not. > 14:25 < mrvn> Ganneff: may I ask why? > 14:26 < GyrosGeier> Ganneff, are there people left who can accept it and who > might? > 14:26 < GyrosGeier> (hypothetically speaking) > *silence* > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://ftp-master.debian.org/removals.txt > ========================================================================= > [Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:50:16 +0000] [ftpmaster: Joerg Jaspert] > Removed the following packages from unstable: > > ia32-apt-get | 22 | all > ia32-archive | 22 | all > ia32-libs-tools | 22 | source, amd64, i386, ia64 > Closed bugs: 535645 > > ------------------- Reason ------------------- > RoThe Project; Most idiotic breakage ever. > ---------------------------------------------- > ========================================================================= > > > Please help me understand why Joerg just removed my package and > hopefully revert that decision. > > What I'm asking for is that ia32-libs-tools is allowed to co-exist > with ia32-libs and ia32-libs-gtk as it has been for the year before > Jun 2009. > > I'm not asking for ia32-libs or ia32-libs-gtk to be replaced. The only > reason ia32-libs-tools took them over was that ia32-libs was > unmaintainable, uninstallable and unmaintained for a year and as the > then maintainers we decided to abandon it. ia32-libs and ia32-libs-gtk > have a new maintainer now so they are his problem. > > MfG > Goswin > > > > ====================================================================== > > Background information > ---------------------- > > After maintaining the ia32-libs packages for some time the > pkg-ia32-libs team came to the conclusion that there must be a better > way to do this. ia32-libs is fragile, needs constant work and uploads > and the sheer size makes frequently uploading new versions a problem > for the maintainer and the mirror network. There also is code (and > more importantly bugs) duplication between ia32-libs and ia32-libs-gtk > in Debian, ia32-libs-kde and ia32-libs-scim in Ubuntu and several more > ia32-libs-* packages build by users. So ia32-libs-tools was born. > > ia32-libs-tools took the common elements of all the ia32-libs* > packages, converting an i386 debian package for use on amd64, and put > it in a tool anyone can Build-Depend on. So there is only one place > where bugs have to be fixed or features added. > > The reason ia32-libs is fragile and needs constant watching is that > dependencies, conflicts, breaks are not considered for packages > included in ia32-libs. Every time a library changes its soname the > source breaks on update. Given that the sheer size was also a huge > problem the next step was splitting ia32-libs into multiple packages, > one package per source package that gets converted (95 of them, > *juck*), one binary package per binary package that gets > converted. That way all the existing package relationships could be > preserved and small individual packages could be uploaded when the > i386 package changes. This was rejected by ftp-master (see [1]). > > In the REJECTED mail Joerg Jasper wrote: > > | - How about you do not provide the ia32-foo packages yourself, but leave > | that to the maintainers? Just provide the tools to *easily* create > | them at build time. That would be the best way to go. It would enable > | basically every package (where it makes sense) to have an ia32 > | version, do not double the source code needlessly, etc. Win win. > > That is exactly what ia32-libs-tools provides. So in a way Joerg > himself suggested writing ia32-libs-tools even if that was after the > fact that I wrote it. > > Unfortunately the DAK and wanna-build do not allow uploading a package > building libfoo_i386.deb, lib32foo_amd64.deb, lib32foo_ia64.deb on > i386, libfoo_amd64.deb on amd64 and libfoo_ia64.deb on ia64. So while > the tool would allow that the infrastructure does not. So creation at > build time is not possible. > > Discussing this on irc resulted in the following points being made: > > - The conversion process is completly automatic. > - Having converted debs in the archive is a huge waste of space. > - The conversion can be done on the users system just as well as > during build time. > - Converting packages that already exist in the archive as needed by > the user removes all the problems of missing security fixes, missing > libraries, outdated versions, source/binary duplication, space and > bandwith wasteage. > > >From that ia32-archive and ia32-apt-get were born. > > Ia32-archive creates a local repository of converted packages that can > be used directly, exported via http, ftp or nfs or used to build CD > images that include 32bit support for amd64. Converting all the > packages included in ia32-libs and ia32-libs-gtk takes about 800MB > disk space though. 800MB that are completly wasted if the converted > packages are only for local use. > > ia32-apt-get takes the process one step further doing a complete > on-the-fly conversion of packages as they are installed. That means > that if the user asks ia32-apt-get/ia32-aptitude to install > ia32-libfoo (32bit libfoo) it fetches the libfoo_i386.deb, converts > the control.tar.gz and data.tar.gz during unpacking and removes the > tempfiles when done. The only space required is enough temporary space > to unpack each package. > > ia32-apt-get provides the following tools: > > ia32-apt-get > ia32-aptitude > ia32-apt-cache > ia32-dpkg > ia32-dpkg-deb > > All of them simple wrapper scripts that run the existing tools and do > some extra processing before or after the existing tool or just pass > an extra option or two. > > > Feature comparison: > > ia32-libs-tools | ia32-libs > ----------------------------------------| ------------------------------ > Source: 69311 Bytes | 363171098 Bytes ia32-libs > | 191042473 Bytes ia32-libs-gtk > | > Binary: 46142 Bytes ia32-libs-tools | 29003858 Bytes ia32-libs > 18598 Bytes ia32-apt-get | 12168602 Bytes ia32-libs-gtk > 11620 Bytes ia32-archive | > | > Suports:3975 libraries | 112+32 libraries > 315 binaries | > 250+ tested and in use | > | > General:Honors Depends, Conflicts, | Ignores them all > Replaces, Breaks, Pre-Depends, | > Provides | > | > Packages shlibs file converted | Manual shlibs file with manual > automatically preserving the | versioning > version requirements | > | > Instant (security) updates | Needs manual intervention and > for libraries | seperate upload for updates > | > Allows installing i386 debs | Needs repackaging of debs > with full package relationship | > checking | > | > Allows installing debs directly | Repacking means redistribution, > from 3rd party apt repositories | not always legal to do so > Example: skype | Example: skype > | > Allows package maintainers to | Special cases need to be added > provide conversion hooks for | in ia32-libs source by its > special cases | maintainer > | > Allows bit by bit conversion to | No upgrade path to multiarch. > true multiarch as soon as | User needs to purge ia32-libs > support is added to apt, dpkg | and all it reverse depends and > and packages themself. Becomes | reinstall software under > less and less hackish the more | multiarch. Mixtures will lead > multiarch is implemented | to random version mismatches. > > > ====================================================================== > > [1] > http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-ia32-libs-maintainers/2008-April/000028.html > > [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/06/msg00902.html > > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
