On 18.11.20 18:33, Matthew Vernon wrote: > Package: tech-ctte > Control: block 921012 by -1 > Control: block 964139 by -1 > X-Debbugs-CC: debian-init-divers...@chiark.greenend.org.uk > > Dear Technical Committee, > > This bug report relates specifically to bugs in the network-manager > package (#921012, #964139) but has broader implications, particularly > around what it means to "support the efforts of developers"[0] working > on support for alternative init systems (I will talk about sysvinit here > without loss of generality to other non-systemd init systems). > > In brief: > > #921012 is about changing network-manager to Depend upon "default-logind > | logind" rather than libpam-systemd > > #964139 is about restoring the removed network-manager init script which > was removed from the package. There is no suggestion that the init > script was buggy > > Both changes are necessary for it to be possible to install > network-manager on a sysvinit system; it is going to be hard to use > Debian without network-manager. > > Both bugs have sat open for extended periods with no input from the > maintainer; so I prepared an NMU and uploaded it to DELAYED/14 as well > as making an MR on salsa[1]. > > The NMU was declined, on the basis that removing the init script was not > a mistake; I'm not aware of any rationale being provided beyond that for > refusing either patch. > > I'm afraid the effect of this is that the maintainers of this package > are making it impossible for other developers to enable support of > sysvinit. There are people[2] who will (and have) test compatibility > changes, help with issues with sysvinit scripts, and so on, but those > efforts are in effect being stonewalled. > > The effect of this, and equivalent behaviour in some other packages, is > that it is going to be impossible to make a useful Bullseye for users > who want to use sysvinit. > > I (and a couple of other interested parties) have approached the DPL > about this matter on a number of occasions this year, and have tried to > follow their advice where possible. I regret that it has proved > necessary to involve the technical committee. > > I invite the technical committee to rule that: > * The network-manager init script should be restored > * Network-manager should Depend: on default-logind | logind rather than > libpam-systemd > * Similar init-compatibility changes should not be blocked by package > maintainers unless they are defective on their own merits > * These changes be made in time to be effective in Bullseye
I know it was mentioned back in the day, but trying to re-ask it now: Wouldn't it be possible to ship init scripts for compatibility purposes from a sysvinit (or maybe a sysvinit-support) package? This would be the inverse of what happened back when systemd was introduced, which was about shipping service files that superseded existing init scripts. I understand that you might not want that maintenance burden, however it seems like the network-manager maintainers might not want that maintenance burden either. That obviously would not solve the dependency issue, where the (not copied) claim of the maintainers is that there is no interface equality between what you suggest and what they think is appropriate. The last message in the bug suggested dropping a file in network-manager's config directory to disable a certain feature. With hooks it's clearly acceptable to drop files into configs of other packages and one could argue that a configuration directory is a similarly acceptable interface to reuse from another package. Maybe there'd be an amenable way if the interaction is properly defined? Like a support package doing that providing some pseudo-package that can serve as an alternative dependency. Kind regards Philipp Kern
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