Hi, Le mardi 09 avril 2013 à 19:27 +0200, Alexander Wagner a écrit : > On 04/09/2013 01:20 PM, Simon wrote: > > Hi! > > I found the OPs description very interesting and might add > some thoughs of my own here. > > [...] > >> 1. Copy a few hundred images over from the camera. > >> 2. Organize them into projects (i.e. film rolls in darktable) > >> 3. In every project/film roll, look at every image, delete the bad > >> ones, do some basic editing (crop, exposure, sometimes white balance) > >> 4. Tag the faces with the names > >> 5. Put certain images into albums > >> 6. Export to internet gallery > > This tends to follow my own workflow, however in step 2 I > use a more technical sorting that I can autmate by my > ingester script. I can not call it from dt but I can call it > from my desktop and then import what it produced to dt. So I > end up with photos sorted to sometimes several folders/film > rolls automagically. > > Step 4 is also quite important for me, though my indexing is > based on a controled vocabulary of hierarchical index terms > and does not really include people or names. In principle > dt can handle the hierarchy but the handling has "room for > improvement". > > >> Point 3 is where most of the time goes, and a lot of > >> stuff there seems to be much more clumsy to achieve in > >> darktable than in Aperture. > >> > >> First thing, I'm in darkroom view now, which means that I > >> can't delete images. I'm not really sure what that > >> separation between light table and dark room is for, > >> anyway? Sure, it makes sense to separate import/export > >> and organizing images into film rolls from the dark room > >> part. > >> > > in the darktable way, we try to separate things in analogy > > to film photography. I.e. "darkroom" represents the place > > where the development of your images happens, which is > > usually separated from going through the shots, picking, > > tagging and rating. > > I admit that I can work very well with this separation, > though I always had the feeling that one could have both > worlds if dt would just use dialogues that pop up upon > calling. (But I think this is out of the question.) > > > Having said this - in digital photography things change > > quite a bit of course, which is why we try to build > > bridges between the two sections, e.g. allowing style > > application in lightroom or rating and (color-) tagging in > > darkroom. > > dt's functions for marking a reject in darkroom is IMHO > pretty handy. Same for * and colour markers. I tend to > review my rejects before finally moving them to the litter > so I can live well with reject in darkroom and move to light > table later on, display only the rejects. I understand that > the OP doesn't do this second review. > > I may note, that there seems to be a slight sync-problem in > the film strip of darkroom, if I mark an item as rejected > though. (It stays in development mode but is removed from > the strip. I think reject should move to the next image.) > > [...] > >> Same with tagging: I don't need the face recognition > >> stuff from Aperture which doesn't work well, anyway. But > >> I'd like to tag in dark room view where I see the image > >> full screen and know who's on it (using tags for people's > >> names, mainly). Plus, even if I do it in light table view > >> later, it's a terrible hell of clicking and shoving the > >> mouse around, as there doesn't seem to be a possibility > >> to change the currently selected image without using the > >> mouse. (If there is, please tell me!) > > There is. The standard shortcut for changing images in > > lighttable mode are just the arrow keys. > > May I ask how? > > It shounds easy enough but at least in my freshly compiled > git version the arrow keys move around in the light table > but they /do not/ change the focus of the images. I.e. I am > not able to actually switch between images using the > keyboard. Some vertical scolling happens, but the focused > image stays. > > Now for much of my "tagging" a smaller preview is in fact > helpful plus in many occasions several pictures the same > tags (at least as a subset). So marking several and then add > the tags would in indeed be desireble, and as the addition > of keywords and other metadata is a keyboard action I think > it would be great if this could be done without the mouse. > > If it would work as you suggest + shift arrow keys do a > marking, two shortcuts for metadata editor (doesn't have a > shortcut assigned, ups ;) and activate the tag input line > would improve the input here quite a lot. (I admit, I do > not understand why Ctrl-T opens another input and doesn't > just activate the module nor use it's functionality.) > > I think your menitioned way of moving around works only if > you set the preview size to use the full screen, so you have > only one image. What you toggle by Alt-1. (I admit, I was > not aware of Alt-1 cause Alt-1 changes my desktop, but I > used the mouse wheel to zoom to that size.) Then the > scrolling of the light table coincides with moving the > image. > > I may add that there is another silly problem with the mouse > actions. As, in a way your're forced to use the mouse to > give focus to an image (point & click) at least I tend to > use the mouse to focus the proper controls for metadata like > metadata editor and tagging. However, this involves moving > the mouse over other images effectively moving the focus to > an fro till I click on some image. It stays where it should > be after the click it's just a bit strange that things > change all the time and I'm always thinking about wether the > correct item has the focus. Probably, another behavour was > orignally intended? > > > This should work in both the temporarily zoomed image > > using the "z" shortcut and - what you probably want to use > > - the full-image view of lighttable to which you can > > switch using ALT+1. > > In fact z + arrow keys allows a preview but does not set the > focus as would be required for adding metadata. At least it > doesn't here. > > [...] > > * Not being able to add a second tag after having applied > > one using Ctrl+T is clearly a bug and needs to be solved. > > Please file an entry here: > > http://www.darktable.org/redmine/projects/darktable/issues/new > > I may add here that Ctrl-T does not work well with > structured keywores (A|B|C) as it doesn't use the list of > keywords that dt knows. > > I may also add that even if I focus the tagging module I > could not just type C to assign the A|B|C concept list or > select a proper tag if I have e.g. D|E|C (if C is a homonym > and may represent several concepts). Yes, correct, it's the same bug as the plugin "tagging", see #9088 opened for it http://www.darktable.org/redmine/issues/9088
Another bug, on Ctrl-T, if tag are too much long (like me with hierarchical tag) it's will cut the name & make it useless (tested with 1.2 version) See screenshot for a better explaination (i don't think it's already a opened bug of it, isn't it ? ) Regards > > What I can do is key in A and get a list of all subconcepts > of A hit -> start typing the next in the row and so on. IMHO > it would be better if I key in C to get both chains A|B|C > and D|E|C for selection and not nothing if C is only a > subconcept of something. > > Also if A is something like "longerkeyword" and I type > "long" it should be considered to allow <tab> to "expand" > the suggestion of "longerkeyword". This is a quite common > shortcut. I understand that at the moment there is only a > binding for right arrow. > > BTW: structured keywords are IMHO easier to navigate by > mouse, if they are displayed as a tree. Especially, one > should keep in mind that it could get a quite lengthy list > if you have a decent substructure. Also some of the concepts > can be a bit broad so dispalying A|B|C as such could require > quite some hoizontal scrolling. > > BTW/2: the same comment about trees holds for film rolls. I > admit that I would like to have a collapsable tree here as > well. Like drawers that contain boxes that contain folders > folders, which finally contain the slides. Sometimes I know > it's in the blue box so its sensible to open only the blue > one, ie. expand only that subtree. (But I never worked in > flim and film archiving so my analogy might be wrong.) > > [...] > >> drags. Then, to see the image cropped, I have to somehow > >> unfocus the crop module again. The quickest way I found > >> is switch to the next image with space and then back to > >> my current image with backspace (which is a lot quicker > >> than finding and focusing another module with the mouse), > >> but that's still /very/ cumbersome, of course. > > I would consider this behaviour a bug. Activating the > > module using shortcuts should always move focus, too. We > > should change this implementation, I completely agree with > > you. > > Actually, especially the crop tool is a bit strange with > it's focus. E.g. it doesn't get a focus if you just activate > it or choose a submenu. In fact I often resort to enabeling > some sort of grid to ensure that I get the handles I want. > But till now I do not understand what happens here > focus-wise, so I couldn't even call it a bug. It could well > be a bug on layer 8. > > >> Please don't get me wrong: Darktable is great all in all, > >> especially in its dark room features > > Yepp! Definitely. Metadata is a very weak point, however. > > [...] > >> But for me, much more important than all the feature > >> masses I'll never use is the possibility to work quickly > >> and move from image to image in seconds, quickly > >> adjusting each one, using the mouse only where the mouse > >> actually is better (faster) than the keyboard. > > Agree. Especially what's called "tagging" (adding metadata) > in dt-speak is something I really spend quite a bunch of > work. Till now, however, I use another cataloging software. > I admit that I'd like to move this to dt as it would ease up > some of my workflow. > > >> I don't fear learning different stuff; so if I oversaw > >> possibilities in darktable, please tell me. Especially > >> tagging looks more or less unusable to me at the moment, > > I fear, I have to agree. > > >> actually a show stopperI sincerely hope that I'm just > >> doing it wrong right now. :-) > > You directly addressed one of the field where we > > definitely need improvement. We have discussed the > > implementation of tags and tagging quite some times and > > all aggree that there lies a lot of potential > > improvements. So if you have concrete ideas or suggestions > > - let us know! > > I think tagging should also take into account the other > metadata fields like title and so on. Still, I feel adding > IPTC support would be best, but even if one doesn't want to > add all IPTC fields I feel at least location fields should > be available. Where was this shot taken and so on. > > >> My next computer won't be a Mac anymore, I'll switch back > >> to Linux. The thing I fear losing most is Aperture, but > >> darktable is /very/ near being a good replacement. It > >> already is more than that technically, but not so > >> workflow-wise. > > I don't know Apperture but I agree that the main weaknesses > of dt are probably not in the darkroom. >
<<attachment: Ctrl-T.png>>
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