On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Reese wrote:
> At 01:56 AM 2/26/00 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Sunder wrote:
>
> >> Oh puhleeze. Research before you speak. I was born in a satelite of Red
> >> Russia. It was a commie state. I remember it all too well. Joe Sixpack
> >> might not give a shit about how much it sucks elsewhere. I do, I was
> >> there.
> >
> >Irrelevent.
>
> Nope - not irrelevant. First hand knowledge of a socialist regime,
> communist variant.
Granted, it's not irrelevent to you: it adds to your knowledge -- and
that is fine. And, telling all of us privledged assholes adds to our
knowledge, so that's ok too .. but the original statement was about
Joe Average's views on Communism. Joe Average isn't on this list. Joe
Average doesn't know this list exists.
Joe Average shouldn't have an opinion on Communism, just like he shouldn't
really have an opinion on relativity.
A lot of people "know" that E=mc^2, and how the speed of light
cannot be exceeded, or how time slows down as you approach relativistic
speed. They read sci-fi .. ask them to explain why, and they can't --
because they don't know anything about it, really. Scientists say this
stuff too, and because the people treat scientists as the new priesthood,
they listen to it, and they believe it.. when in reality, there exists
several good books for the layman on the topic. Of course, trust in
science is bit different anyhow, because of peer review and all.
Which is precisely why trust in the bullshit that the government feeds
us isn't always so wise: many times they have a lock on the information.
Independent information ('a repeated experiment, so to say') is not
available. I don't like trusting in a Pope; regardless of who is wearing
the damn robe.
Joe Average is uninformed. He "knows" that Communist rule sucks.
But he can't explain why. He listens to his government, he listens to
the media, and he believes it without any attempt to verify the
information. He sits back, and lets himself get fed.
Whether or not relativity is actually TRUE, or communism is actually
a threat to free men is irrelevent, because he'll believe the opposite
too (if the propaganda machine were so inclined).
We were talking about allowing the government to think for the people,
rather than the other way around.
> >Americans condemn Communism usually without even having read the Communist
> >Manifesto;
>
> 70 some years of watching a country flounder then fail, and you want us to
> adopt their failed system?
Strawman. I never said this. In fact, I said I don't support Communism.
Thanks for playing though. Insert another quarter?
> >Americans condemn Communism without knowing shit about Marxist
> >tenents, and without knowing (or even reading about) the realities of
> >life under a Stalinist/Maoist rule.
>
> "You will obey me, or die." What else do I need to know about
> Stalinist/Maoist rule? You are still an idiot.
_YOU_ don't need to know anything more. If you've lived in that
environment, or have knowledge of it -- now we are talking about an
informed opinion and not mental masturbation. Good deal.
But, the reality of Americans is that they don't know shit about it.
For every horror story you can give them, some asshole can say something
along the lines of "That was a tragedy, yes .. but no where NEAR the
proportions that you make it seem. You need to understand <insert
propaganda>. It is like the tragedy in America with the Natives. Or
the imprisionment of your Asian population during WWII. That SURELY
doesn't make the U.S. a great evil does it? Neither does this tragedy
make <China,USSR,any other fucked up country you like> a great evil.
No government is perfect, but we try our best to serve the people
as best as we can."
And the people will buy into it.
Whether or not the people are brainwashed with the truth or not is
not the discussion -- it is that they are brainwashed. Their method
of arriving at their truth, namely, by cuddling up to their Unk'a
Sammy and asking for a bedtime story, is fundamentally flawed --
regardless of whether or not Unk'a Sammy reads a good story or not.
> >"The answer to our question (what do we do about the poor) is simple:
> >nothing. We need an impoverished working class to supply cheap labor to
> >our corporations. They must, after all, turn a profit."
>
> and this is the final irony. In our system, such things may be said
> freely, whether they represent the Truth or not. In a socialist system,
> such as that would either be a state secret, or be heresy punishable by death.
Agreed. I do _love_ freedom of speech.. and I love using it, and even when
I hate what some shithead is saying, I love watching it being exercised.
Good stuff.
That still doesn't make the brainwashing of my people worth the price.
I love my rights, but I love humans more -- and if pissing away
my right to free speech would wake everyone up from their dogmatic slumber
and get them thinking about just what the hell is going on .. I'd do it
in a heartbeat.
It should be clear that the U.S. government doesn't give the people
complete and accurate information all of the time. Sometimes it is out
of secrecy, sometimes it is out of error -- either way, I'd simply like
the people to be enlightened, and realize that they are far wiser than
they give themselves credit for.
I just want 'ole Boxer to stop working so fucking hard, enjoy his life
a bit more, think for himself, and quit saying "Napoleon knows best."
I love a lot about my country and its people. Not everything, but
more than enough to keep me from blowing up a few buildings. I was
literally born on the fourth of July.. as a result, Independance
Day for me was always a lot bigger bash than for most. As a kid I
ate apple pie instead of chocolate cake on my birthday. I like
American culture. I like sitting around with my neighbors, drinking a few
beers, cooking up some burgers on the grill and having a few laughs.
I don't always like what my government does, and I don't always like
how the majority of my countrymen think -- but hey, thats what being
an American is about sometimes -- absolutely.
But if it continues that some guys on Capitol Hill, or in the newsroom at
ABC are doing the thinking for the People, then it won't be long before
we go the way of Rome.
And that will piss me off.
Michael J. Graffam ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.
The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit
to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
- Albert Einstein
