Dear All,
Here my final proposal:
I propose A) to call the new issue "inverse direction for P177 assigned
property of type".
B) I regard that amending the scope note of P177 is sufficient:
*P177 Scope note OLD:*
This property associates an instance of E13 Attribute Assignment with
the type of property or relation that this assignment maintains to hold
between the item to which it assigns an attribute and the attribute
itself. Note that the properties defined by the CIDOC CRM also
constitute instances of E55 Type themselves. The direction of the
assigned property of type is understood to be from the attributed item
(the range of property /P140 assigned attribute to(was attributed by)/)
to the attribute item (the range of the property /P141 assigned (was
assigned by)/). More than one property type may be assigned to hold
between two items.
A comprehensive explanation about refining CIDOC CRM concepts by E55
Type is given in the section “About Types” in the section on “Specific
Modelling Constructs” of this document.
*P177 Scope note NEW:*
This property associates an instance of E13 Attribute Assignment with
the type of property or relation that this assignment maintains to hold
between the item to which it assigns an attribute and the attribute
itself. Note that the properties defined by the CIDOC CRM also
constitute instances of E55 Type themselves.
A comprehensive explanation about refining CIDOC CRM concepts by E55
Type is given in the section “About Types” in the section on “Specific
Modelling Constructs” of this document.
The direction of the assigned property of type is understood to be from
the attributed item (the range of property /P140 assigned attribute
to(was attributed by)/) to the attribute item (the range of the property
/P141 assigned (was assigned by)/). More than one property type may be
assigned to hold between two items.
*Note* that the inverse of a property is not a property in its own right
in the CIDOC CRM, but an interpretation implicitly existing for any
property. Consequently, an instance of E13 Attribute Assignment relating
a pair of items by the inverse of a particular property type is
implicitly regarded to relate them by the forward property type as well,
but in the direction from the declared range to the declared domain.
This may be taken care of in an KB implementation by the mechanisms for
querying, data entry and / or data export.
Best,
Martin
On 3/2/2026 7:52 PM, Martin Doerr wrote:
Dear All,
I agree and I'll try to formulate a repective not in the next days.
Best,
Martin
On 3/2/2026 11:09 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear all,
So it sounds like the practical consensus would be on either using
the example as originally proposed and putting the note or perhaps
even doing it the reverse direction (in the example) but again
putting the same note. Like if it says p46i in the example we can put
a note, and this implies also p46 reading the other way or if it says
P46 in the example then we can put the inverse comment. Would that be
a satisfactory solution to all?
Best,
George
On Sat, Feb 28, 2026 at 1:11 PM Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear all,
To avoid the complexity of querying for both directions in RDFS,
during
the Linked Conservation Data project, all inverse properties were
automatically turned around. But I can see why this may be
problematic
in some implementations.
All the best,
Thanasis
On 26/02/2026 09:33, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> May I correct Wolfgang's proposal.
>
> The issue is about formal encoding. RDFS distinguishes forward and
> backward directions as distinct properties.
> This had been amended in OWL with the construct inverse of.
CIDOC CRM
> regards the backward direction as a question of label reading
and not a
> ditinct identity. Therefore, P46i forms part of is *NOT* a
different
> property type from P46 is composed of. If "P46i forms part of"
would
> appear in a KB input in an E13 pattern, P140 and P141 should be
turned
> around and P177 adjusted to P46 via input S/W.
>
> We had discussed this as a question of formal logic and
identity of
> properties.
>
> Bet,
>
> Martin
>
> On 2/26/2026 10:37 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
>> Dear Wolfgang,
>>
>> Why is this? I have not heard of it before. Is it written?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> George
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2026 at 10:34 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via
Crm-sig <crm-
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Property types like "P46i forms part of" are not allowed in an
>> Attribute Assignment. Instead, it should be "P46 is
composed of
>> (forms part of)". Since this isn't common knowledge, the E13 /
>> P140 / P141 / P177 scope notes should be amended to
mention it.
>>
>> Best,
>> Wolfgang
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
> Dr. Martin Doerr
>
> Honorary Head of the
> Center for Cultural Informatics
>
> Information Systems Laboratory
> Institute of Computer Science
> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>
> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>
> Email:[email protected] <mailto:email%[email protected]>
> Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>
>
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--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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